Author Topic: Caste system in the Gurudwaras? (Read 1139 times)

kiddan morniye · « **on:** November 17, 2011, 12:58:07 AM »

Sorry if this is a re-post, but first time I'm seeing this.

How do you claim to be a Sikh and then segregated amongst YOUR OWN KIND?!
The gw contains the Guru Granth Sahib, which was formed to UNITE all Sikhs NOT divide us because of our 'caste'. A gw isn't a gw if it divides it's followers & you shouldn't call yourself a Sikh if you still believe in this bs caste system.


Disgracefull System In Punjab Gurdwaras

Moderator's Note: edited title to be less ambiguous. I saw gw and thought of the school for instance

Bhangra Teams' Forum · « **on:** November 17, 2011, 12:58:07 AM »

HarmanSingh · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2011, 01:37:13 AM »

This is beyond shameful for Sikhi. You can't call yourself a Sikh and spit on the very essence of the Guru Granth Sahib by discriminating against your fellow human beings. Also, as a Jatt, I am ashamed of the Jatts that are doing that to the "lower caste" people. They clearly do not know the history of Sikhi or the philosophy of Sikhi if they discriminate.

The "Gurudwaras" (and I say Gurudwara in quotes because they hardly classify as such) that do this in America and Canada are just as disgusting. Why is there a Labana Gurdwara and Jatt Gurdwara in New York? This type of stuff and the fights that come with it are so counterproductive when there are serious issues in India and abroad that our communities should be working on. It is also why so many young people have turned from Sikhi. Who can blame them when the Sikhi that is practiced at these Gurudwaras is full of lmindless rituals, discrimination, hatred and politics?

Yankee Saini · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2011, 09:45:53 AM »

It's all these old people that still follows this bullshit caste system! Only we the younger generation can get rid of this on going disease!!! N' these are PAKHANDI SIKHS!!! inha da ilaaj sirf RABB e kar sakda jadon inha da time aaya!!!

p.s. I hope we the young gen. is on the same page!!! rabb rakha!!!

Romy · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2011, 12:04:57 PM »

Quote from: Yankee Saini on November 17, 2011, 09:45:53 AM

It's all these old people that still follows this bullshit caste system! Only we the younger generation can get rid of this on going disease!!! N' these are PAKHANDI SIKHS!!! inha da ilaaj sirf RABB e kar sakda jadon inha da time aaya!!!

p.s. I hope we the young gen. is on the same page!!! rabb rakha!!!

We can hope the younger generation, that being us, can change these idiotic rituals that go on in our gurdwaras, but the problem that lies with this is that are we up for it? Are we willing to make the change?

There is a growing movement, especially here in Vancouver, of Sikh youths running in Gurdwara elections, and winning. The Guru Nanak Sikh Gurdwara being one, ran with a committee of all amritdhari sikh youth and won and brought the gurdwara to where it is today, an amazing well runned Gurdwara with interactive programs for youth, women who are dealing with domestic abuse, seniors (I can go on forever) whereas with the previous running body, the Gurdwara lacked leadership, and it was clear they were there just for the money and to drink alcohol in the office (I know it was a big shame).

But what i'm going with is that it is just a small population here that is willing and trying to make a change. Yes, I know it only takes one person to make a change but we all know how our mentality works. There are more people here (talking about Vancouver) who believe in the caste system ie. jatts rule the world, they can only stick with jatts, everyone else is scum and so on than folks who are willing to make a change in our community. And these are kids who were born here. When you try to explain to them that they shouldn't believe in this, it's not the Sikhi way, they won't listen, they don't care, or they claim it isn't true. I'm sure we all know someone who believes in this.

So until we change this perception among OUR generation as well, then we can hopefully change this for future generations.

Jas13 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2011, 01:42:56 PM »

So shameful.. Disgusting really!
Its kinda like this in the UK aswell with separate Tarkaan and Paatrah Gurudwaras to name a few. Interestingly the origins of the separate places of worship in the UK were to do with Gurudwara politics with hints of castist undertones. It all just stems down from what you guys have been saying, lack of knowledge teamed with blind following of dead traditions. Lets just hope with education and an open mind that we can rid of this nonsense.

monisingh · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2011, 05:31:14 PM »

I never believed in the caste system( if I did I would be a ramgharia/tharkhan) as it just sounds plain stupid when people get into arguments about this shit and going about how their son or daughter can only marry from the same caste and what not particularly those who say they are jatt ( no offence but a lot of people who call themselves jatts take this shit to seriously

) .

in canada I only seen ramgharia gurdwara`s.

I never been to england...so no comment about the gurdwara`s their only the fact that they use tables and chairs during langar instead of eating on the floor which was how sikhs ate langar before a dumb ass in england decided to bring in tables and chairs (its understandable when your old as hell and have certain problems which would put you in extreme pain if you sat down on a floor and then tried to get up).

Meanwhile back in the motherland...Punjab, over their ramgharia gurdwara`s, jatt gurdwara`s, chamar gurdwara`s, khatri gurdwara`s all this shit going on their.

ENVY BANG-RUH · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2011, 06:54:03 PM »

On the westcoast, well at least here in norcal, i havent seen caste based gurdwaras, but more gurdwaras that either follow closer to Sant Jarnail Singh Bindrawale or far from it. So its more a political divide than caste based divide. But seeing this stuff makes me sick. Can't seem to understand why.

sgrewal30 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2011, 07:00:03 PM »

i just hope that when we are all our parents age, we'll remember how much we hate these caste systems in and out of the Gurdwara and put a stop to it for good.

Ashveer · « **Reply #8 on:** November 17, 2011, 07:06:30 PM »

Quote from: ENVY BANG-RUH on November 17, 2011, 06:54:03 PM

On the westcoast, well at least here in norcal, i havent seen caste based gurdwaras, but more gurdwaras that either follow closer to Sant Jarnail Singh Bindrawale or far from it. So its more a political divide than caste based divide. But seeing this stuff makes me sick. Can't seem to understand why.

Im to too sure bro...I can't say for certain, but I think Bradshaw and Elsie are or were initially caste-based in their starting? Obv the Ravidassi one is.

I think a lot of how our generation will deal with caste depends on how strongly we do or don't fight our parents on forcing to marry into the same caste. That's where you've got to put your money where your mouth is if it becomes an issue.

Im not trying to start a debate on tables and chairs (its so stupid to fight about it,we have more important issues) but tables and chairs were also being used in early 20th century southern california.

Navkarn · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2011, 07:30:46 PM »

Quote from: ENVY BANG-RUH on November 17, 2011, 06:54:03 PM

On the westcoast, well at least here in norcal, i havent seen caste based gurdwaras, but more gurdwaras that either follow closer to Sant Jarnail Singh Bindrawale or far from it. So its more a political divide than caste based divide. But seeing this stuff makes me sick. Can't seem to understand why.

down here in san diego a "jattan da gurdwara" was built solely because of the drama going on at the "paapiyaan da gurdwara" ... sad that new gurdwara was built upon all the wrong reasons and that both gurdwaras still have tussles between each other when it comes to attracting sangat.

Avneet · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2011, 07:42:46 PM »

Quote from: Ashveer on November 17, 2011, 07:06:30 PM

Quote from: ENVY BANG-RUH on November 17, 2011, 06:54:03 PM
On the westcoast, well at least here in norcal, i havent seen caste based gurdwaras, but more gurdwaras that either follow closer to Sant Jarnail Singh Bindrawale or far from it. So its more a political divide than caste based divide. But seeing this stuff makes me sick. Can't seem to understand why.

Im to too sure bro...I can't say for certain, but I think Bradshaw and Elsie are or were initially caste-based in their starting? Obv the Ravidassi one is.

I think a lot of how our generation will deal with caste depends on how strongly we do or don't fight our parents on forcing to marry into the same caste. That's where you've got to put your money where your mouth is if it becomes an issue.

Im not trying to start a debate on tables and chairs (its so stupid to fight about it,we have more important issues) but tables and chairs were also being used in early 20th century southern california.

Yes, the tables and chairs thing was so stupid! Elder people can't even enjoy their langar because they can't sit on the floor for too long. Luckily in SJ they are allowed to sit on chairs in the back of the Gurdwara hall. And there are tables to stand and eat langar- but "officially," still no chairs.

kiddan morniye · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2011, 07:45:45 PM »

I def agree, our generation can change this BUT it's our generation who fuels the fire as well. Because kids our age go around boasting about how they're high class. & when sometimes when non-sikh people ask other sikhs about sikhi I've noticed most people always come out telling about high class & low class. I've had plenty people asking me what class I am in the system. LIKE WTF?

& the 'gw' aren't gurdwara's anymore. The SAME granth sahib you bow & claim your 'sikhi' infront of is the SAME granth sahib you curse & beat others infront of. & there was this one video I believe for the fight in the 114st gw in Richmond Hill, where they're walking in with kirpans & with their shoes on and all of a sudden they want to be 'religious' and 'respectful' and put on a patka. OH YEAH like waheguru is really going to give you brownie points for putting on a patka.

it's at these kinds of tactis where I'm ashamed of my kind.

Yankee Saini · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2011, 09:31:12 PM »

Quote from: kiddan morniye on November 17, 2011, 07:45:45 PM

there was this one video I believe for the fight in the 114st gw in Richmond Hill, where they're walking in with kirpans & with their shoes on and all of a sudden they want to be 'religious' and 'respectful' and put on a patka. OH YEAH like waheguru is really going to give you brownie points for putting on a patka.

it was this video! which was also on the news!!!


Baba Makhan Shah Lubana Fight

******
EGO is the main problem in Punjabi's!!!

- I say give it about 10+ years for so, things just might get better!(i'm just assuming). . . I have a lot say but it don't really matter cos saying things won't really change anything! I say become 'whitewash' and things will get better! lol but seriously, its us, who are under the age or 20 or are in their 20's can change things around, but only if we really try! hun aap tan sab kuch change hon lagga nahi! It's funny how people who act like their the shit, such uncles who has big beard and wear dastaars, all act a fool at gurughars! they be making a big deal when votes are nearby, they be cursing at gurughars, and then at somepoint you find them lecturing their kids and other people's kids that 'oh putt, sikhi nu follow karo, apne kesh naa katto, ect. . . " and there are those uncle and aunties, who talk shit about other people's kids, such as "inha di kurri da vigrri payi aa . . . inha da munda tan daroo peenda aa . . . aa dekho inha deh mundey neh vaal ktaa laye . . . the list goes on and on" . . . my point is, they need to look at themselves in a 'huge sheesha!!! I've came across so many uncle and aunties like that and I have no respect for them! kayi vaar tan aena gaalan kaddan da jee karda aa, ki don't ask! but ghar deyan di laaj rakh layi di aa, ki koi ghar deyan nu naa kahe ki thuada munda aedan da aa!!!

- There are so many wannbe uncle and aunties, who present themselves as pure SIKHS! Oh god!!!

. . . wot an effing insult to humanity they are!!!

. . . . once these wanna be's are gone, only then we have chance of getting rid of young gen. Its really don't a big deal if young folks are into caste. There might be few but majority of young folks these days gets along with every and that's a good sign! When I say get along, I meant to say, 'get along with any caste'. I strongly believe that Bhangra here in NORTH AMERICA is helping in somewhat way on being friendly and respecting people from other castes! (just saying) . . . oh well, i don't want to write an essay! but I hope things do change for good! I have been doing my part of getting rid of caste system and you all should too! Can't really tell what I'm doing but I tell you that its' awesome!

ENVY BANG-RUH · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2011, 10:29:07 PM »

Quote from: Ashveer on November 17, 2011, 07:06:30 PM

Quote from: ENVY BANG-RUH on November 17, 2011, 06:54:03 PM
On the westcoast, well at least here in norcal, i havent seen caste based gurdwaras, but more gurdwaras that either follow closer to Sant Jarnail Singh Bindrawale or far from it. So its more a political divide than caste based divide. But seeing this stuff makes me sick. Can't seem to understand why.
Im to too sure bro...I can't say for certain, but I think Bradshaw and Elsie are or were initially caste-based in their starting? Obv the Ravidassi one is.

The pro-Khalistan movement is known as Sikh Youth of America. They are the ones within gurdwara politics follow Sant Jarnail Singh Ji. And I always thought bradshaw was SYOA.

The Ravidaas one I have heard about many times, but thought it was one, where people built a separate room on their property for the Guru Granth Sahib. Originally, i never thought it were true, and never thought people would want to split and build a gurdwara based on caste.

But then again, I probably never take the time to really listen in, because id rather isolate myself to the guru, and not think politics and caste division. A lot of this stuff is actually quite new to me when it comes to the actual gurdwaras.

kiddan morniye · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2011, 11:01:04 PM »

Quote from: Yankee Saini on November 17, 2011, 09:31:12 PM

Quote from: kiddan morniye on November 17, 2011, 07:45:45 PM
there was this one video I believe for the fight in the 114st gw in Richmond Hill, where they're walking in with kirpans & with their shoes on and all of a sudden they want to be 'religious' and 'respectful' and put on a patka. OH YEAH like waheguru is really going to give you brownie points for putting on a patka.

it was this video! which was also on the news!!!

Baba Makhan Shah Lubana Fight

******
EGO is the main problem in Punjabi's!!!

- I say give it about 10+ years for so, things just might get better!(i'm just assuming). . . I have a lot say but it don't really matter cos saying things won't really change anything! I say become 'whitewash' and things will get better! lol but seriously, its us, who are under the age or 20 or are in their 20's can change things around, but only if we really try! hun aap tan sab kuch change hon lagga nahi! It's funny how people who act like their the shit, such uncles who has big beard and wear dastaars, all act a fool at gurughars! they be making a big deal when votes are nearby, they be cursing at gurughars, and then at somepoint you find them lecturing their kids and other people's kids that 'oh putt, sikhi nu follow karo, apne kesh naa katto, ect. . . " and there are those uncle and aunties, who talk shit about other people's kids, such as "inha di kurri da vigrri payi aa . . . inha da munda tan daroo peenda aa . . . aa dekho inha deh mundey neh vaal ktaa laye . . . the list goes on and on" . . . my point is, they need to look at themselves in a 'huge sheesha!!! I've came across so many uncle and aunties like that and I have no respect for them! kayi vaar tan aena gaalan kaddan da jee karda aa, ki don't ask! but ghar deyan di laaj rakh layi di aa, ki koi ghar deyan nu naa kahe ki thuada munda aedan da aa!!!

- There are so many wannbe uncle and aunties, who present themselves as pure SIKHS! Oh god!!! . . . wot an effing insult to humanity they are!!! . . . . once these wanna be's are gone, only then we have chance of getting rid of young gen. Its really don't a big deal if young folks are into caste. There might be few but majority of young folks these days gets along with every and that's a good sign! When I say get along, I meant to say, 'get along with any caste'. I strongly believe that Bhangra here in NORTH AMERICA is helping in somewhat way on being friendly and respecting people from other castes! (just saying) . . . oh well, i don't want to write an essay! but I hope things do change for good! I have been doing my part of getting rid of caste system and you all should too! Can't really tell what I'm doing but I tell you that its' awesome!

Of course! I def agree w/ you. & yeah that's the thing, it's like whenever I'm out at a party or meet someone new the first thing they ask 'Acha tusi ki aa' & I'm like uhhh Sikh & they always go no no jaath ki aa.. and I'm like I don't believe in jaath, & obv they go "no puth twadi jaath taan twadi izaat aa" & I'm LIKE W T F >

!!!!

so if I'm a jatt but I'm some bad hearted person I'm still considered 'great' bc I'm jatt? But I could be "low - class" and have a pure and humble heart but yet I'll never be good enough because of my "caste".. wow

Romy · « **Reply #15 on:** November 18, 2011, 07:11:44 PM »

Quote from: monisingh on November 17, 2011, 05:31:14 PM

I never believed in the caste system( if I did I would be a ramgharia/tharkhan) as it just sounds plain stupid when people get into arguments about this shit and going about how their son or daughter can only marry from the same caste and what not particularly those who say they are jatt ( no offence but a lot of people who call themselves jatts take this shit to seriously ) .

in canada I only seen ramgharia gurdwara`s.

I never been to england...so no comment about the gurdwara`s their only the fact that they use tables and chairs during langar instead of eating on the floor which was how sikhs ate langar before a dumb ass in england decided to bring in tables and chairs (its understandable when your old as hell and have certain problems which would put you in extreme pain if you sat down on a floor and then tried to get up).

Meanwhile back in the motherland...Punjab, over their ramgharia gurdwara`s, jatt gurdwara`s, chamar gurdwara`s, khatri gurdwara`s all this shit going on their.

Some Vancouver area Gurudwara's only have tables & chairs as well. This created a big controversy back in the 90's, with fights breaking out in the langar hall at one of the main gurdwaras here during an election, including stabbings with kirpans (in fact it was at the gurdwara I spoke about in my previous post). However, it doesn't seem to be a major issue in our community right now.

monisingh · « **Reply #16 on:** November 18, 2011, 07:29:05 PM »

Quote from: Romy on November 18, 2011, 07:11:44 PM

Quote from: monisingh on November 17, 2011, 05:31:14 PM
I never believed in the caste system( if I did I would be a ramgharia/tharkhan) as it just sounds plain stupid when people get into arguments about this shit and going about how their son or daughter can only marry from the same caste and what not particularly those who say they are jatt ( no offence but a lot of people who call themselves jatts take this shit to seriously ) .

in canada I only seen ramgharia gurdwara`s.

I never been to england...so no comment about the gurdwara`s their only the fact that they use tables and chairs during langar instead of eating on the floor which was how sikhs ate langar before a dumb ass in england decided to bring in tables and chairs (its understandable when your old as hell and have certain problems which would put you in extreme pain if you sat down on a floor and then tried to get up).

Meanwhile back in the motherland...Punjab, over their ramgharia gurdwara`s, jatt gurdwara`s, chamar gurdwara`s, khatri gurdwara`s all this shit going on their.

Some Vancouver area Gurudwara's only have tables & chairs as well. This created a big controversy back in the 90's, with fights breaking out in the langar hall at one of the main gurdwaras here during an election, including stabbings with kirpans (in fact it was at the gurdwara I spoke about in my previous post). However, it doesn't seem to be a major issue in our community right now.

damn thats a bit extreme, here in brampton someone got stabbed at glidden gurdwara ( its run by a bunch of pro khalistan guys)

SAMMI · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2011, 04:44:28 PM »

How many people who have posted in this thread are Jatt and how many are non-Jatt? Everywhere I've read discussions about this, there are more outspoken non-Jatts about this matter than there are Jatts, which just makes me think about the number of Jatts who react ambiguously in public but starkly condone segregation in private. With Jatts being the majority in Punjab, their overall integrity toward non-Jatts also comes into question.

I'd like to read from both groups and, as members of your respective castes, share your outlook on the union of all Sikhs in the future. Like, it's obvious from what is going on that not many Jatts are actively pursuing opposition to segregation. I want to know what type of conversations about caste go on in your households and your attitude toward them. This is not to fuel an argument but rather a conversation ignited by genuine interest.

Jas13 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2011, 06:31:46 PM »

wow, the last video uploaded on this thread is unreal and very unsettling. to bring the violence in the Darbar Sahib is outright wrong. those involved ought to know better really, very shocked reminded me of a video i saw on btf about a year ago where a similar thing happened in a Gurudwara in canada, either in Toronto or Vancouver! No doubt these arent the only times its happened. Ive heard a lot of Gurudwara related violence in Birmingham, UK but never ever has it entered the actual grounds of the Gurudwara, let alone where the sangat sits.

Anyways back to topic...
What Ive found to see is that in each segregated Gurudwara the practise towards the same religion is beginning to deviate, not including the obvious Ravidassian (chamaar) Gurudwara who tend to pick and choose which ever way their Guru Ravidas swayed. Is this true for you guys in NA? and regarding the whole chair and tables issue in the UK, we infact have half chaired for the elderly or those with difficulties in sitting and the rest are on the floor which i think is fair really?
Now I'm of jatt heritage and am very proud of my farming background however, its when that pride begins to blind a person thats when the issue is raised. Its definitely time for young people to make a stand over old redundant forms of hierarchy. and its also important to remember whats happening in Punjab today, the struggles that the Jatt is being faced with etc. Its down to the new generation to stop such stupidity, in punjab the educated lose interest in such matters and the rest just continue the path of a downward spiral. sad really

smp · « **Reply #19 on:** November 19, 2011, 07:01:45 PM »

Riverside Gurudwara is just a bunch of pro-khalistan folks aswell. The chairman killed his wife and left his son he had with her back in Vancouver, then came to cali and re-married, the whole desi community here knows it and that hes also a hardcore alcoholic. Back in the day I remember when they still had a trailer home in the back for one of the baba's a bunch of kids found a porn mag under the bed and one of their mothers got ahold of it. Way too many secrets there, and fights are nothing new.

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Author Topic: Caste system in the Gurudwaras? (Read 1139 times)

Bhangra Teams' Forum