James Randi on Homeopathy

[Saleem]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U&

Discuss.

 

[Jeeti]

I recently had a very close elder figure with a serious neurological problem...after receiving two surgeries done by a very renowned neurosurgeon at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (which carries with it a great deal of clout)..the problem only got worse...

He went to Canada where he received homeopathic treatment...he has now shown about 70 percent improvement...I understand this is a personal anecdote..be it a placebo effect....makes no difference...the bottom line is...that there should be improvement...

Physiology is a very obviously complicated field and one that we will never quite figure out....it makes absolutely no difference to me whether this kind of treatment has any scientific backing...if it happens to improve any patient it is worthwhile...it could be that homeopathy treatment will be an excellent way to cure psychosomatic pathologies...the example above of a neurological problem which could not be identified might as well have been a psychosomatic problem...

I'm rambling...regardless, although this approach should be taken with caution as it has no scientific basis...does it really matter...if it happens to work even in some remote cases?

 

[Saleem]

As he said in the video, though, [gullible] consumers are being marketed homeopathic treatments for radiation poisoning, anthrax, the Plague, etc. So people are being swindled of their money for joke cures. Placebo effect won't fix anthrax.

Secondly, patients are turning down proven surgeries and medications which they perceive have side effects, because they are confident in their homeopathic cures. A couple months later the patient dies of cancer/tumor/virus/etc.

I'm waiting for Nikhil on this, I think with his background he'll have interesting things to say.

 

[Jeeti]

As a future clinician, let me apologize for giving the impression that homeopathic treatment should be used as a substitute to accepted medicine, rather it should be used as a last resort. People being swindled for their money for cures is nothing new...and although is a legitimate rallying point for being against the use of homeopathy...whether homeopathy is supported or not...people will still be swindled out of their money by supposed cures with no scientific backing.

 

[kinnell]

I don't even think they should be used as a last resort. He made a very valid point in saying that most of the diluted products may not even have a single molecule of the original compound. To me, it seems very placebo effect and it that's what is needed to do it, doctors should turn to significantly cheaper alternatives.

 

[Jeeti]

Is it ethical to give a patient a placebo though? A true placebo...for example...if someone came in with a psychological disorder (E.G. depression)...and you wrote a scrip for prozac but you gave them a sugar pill instead...is this ethical? A similar discussion was raised in a class I have...and it got rather heated...it is lying to the patient, but of course the placebo effect would be completely destroyed if you were to tell the patient what it actually is...of course, I know that I am a speaking of a psychological disorder and the placebo effect is a bit different in this situation...

but what do you think?

Right or Wrong? and Why?

p.s. think outside the box a bit...don't answer Wrong, because you have to disclose this information to the patient ( I am aware of this)...BUT...iff ultimately it benefits the patient...why not?

 

[Nikhil]

Very interesting topic.

My responses will be based in education pertaining to exercise, physical activity and health.

Firstly, to respond to Jeeti's comment about physiology being complicated: yes that is absolutely true. From an exercise science paradigm we learn the theories relating performance and bioenergetic pathways, etc. But really, we understand that while learning these things can happen in a systematic way, it is rather ideal, and really reactions during exercise happen all at once with moderation all around. So yes, physiology, inferring from its complexities during physical activity, is generally easy to understand YET very difficult to pinpoint 100 percent of the time. That doesn't mean, however, that we will never understand it. The human body can only do a "limited" amount of things. That list of "limitations" can be 1 Bazillion variations of basic mechanisms, but it's a matter of time where our genius in analysis and recording/observation will catch up. This is the optimist in me In my opinion, when a physiological phenomenon occurs instantaneously it usually be clarified in hindsight, by reinforcement from the many ideal theories/concepts created from "learning the lessons."


Now, homeopathy is completely, and utterly a defecation on the science of physiology, anatomy, immunology, microbiology, etc. It goes against science completely. It's as if homeopathy is the adopted, defiant and rebellious child of Aristotle/Hippocrates/A.T. Still's philosophies of medicine, with Allopathy and Osteopathy making up this "trio". The only reason why I include homeopathy in this collection is because of its longevity and roots in lying to people. I guess how long you can lie to people really stands for something, haha.

Homeopathy has no bearing in the world today because it lacks the single most important technical standard of professional medicine: LEGITIMATE REASON BASED ON COMPREHENSION OF PHYSIOLOGY. Homeopathy does have its good intentions in encouraging the mind to elicit powerful counteraction against disease and illness, but psychosomatic encouragement cannot and will not solve all the problems we face in health. These good intentions are fostered in placebo effects, however.

Now to move to Jeeti's questions about its ethics, I will say that yes, placebo effects can be used with limitations and restrictions ETHICALLY. Here's where I agree with the good intention of homeopathy. It's emphasis on "human power" can do wonders for CNS arousal and motivation. However that fine line between right and wrong will be overstepped if there is no understanding of how this placebo may work and how it may not work. As evidenced from the video, it seems to me that manufacturing companies based in homeopathic "pharmacology" haven't the slightest clue as to why the mind may work a way opposite to their advertisement schemes. This is where placebo effects are disadvantageous to a patient's health. If a homeopath cannot reason why something is, he doesn't have any right in the world to administer it to a patient as a trial and error.

 

[Saleem]

It comes down to the fact that there is nothing in the solution, literally nothing. Chemicals do not leave any "imprint" on the molecules. We can measure infinitesimal changes at the sub-atomic, sub-particle level, to the extent that we are measuring the energies and tracks of quarks within protons within atoms within molecules etc etc. Give me a repeatable experiment evidencing Homeopathy, or any scientific theory behind it, and then we'll talk.

 

[Pooja]

I used to get migraine headaches, but they weren't at the most severest level so my mom took me to a homeopathic doctor. I spent like $80 bucks each on these small bottles of solution that I had to take everyday.

It was all bull. Didn't do a damn thing for me but my mom kept insisting...I don't believe in it at all, it's a complete placebo. Waste of money.

 

[Nikhil]

Yeah Pooja, I get migraines all the time. The only thing you can really do is sit down and determine what may aggravate or instigate a pain like that on account of what you may do or not do. I found out that if I don't eat right and I'm dehydrated, I'm F'ed!!!

If its beyond you, than obviously medical attention is needed. REAL medical attention LOL. Acupuncture or even OMM is effective...crazy cool stuff

 

[Jeeti]

Let me say this....homoepathy is bull...but if homeopathy is bull...then "placebo" is bull...and this I won't go along with...Nikhil...you said it beautifully...and in a manner that I wish I could have articulated that well..

Let me just say this....its on a CASE BY CASE basis...pooja..if you spent 80 bucks on something worthless...than clearly you didnt believe in the treatment or the causes of the problems are not psychosomatic...

I am a hardcore science kid...just like NIkhil..if there isn't some backing behind it...I don't buy it...but the placebo effect is much more powerful than some of you may think...I'm playing devil's advocate..

you shouldn't mock acupuncture...some people swear by it.

p.s. the label "homoepathic" is the problem....

 

[Saleem]

Let me say this....homoepathy is bull...but if homeopathy is bull...then "placebo" is bull...and this I won't go along with...

The statements aren't tied together. The placebo effect doesn't boast its successes in curing everything, isn't sold and bottled, doesn't claim to have tangible science of "molecule vibrations". Homeopathy does. The placebo effect is a psychological response, it is understood. Homeopathy has no science to dissect

 

[Nikhil]

Oh snap i can see how my comments on acupuncture came off the wrong way...I'm not mocking it at all yo! I shadowed a DO who specializes in pain management via acupuncture and it was pretty amazing!

 

[Jeeti]

Let me say this....homoepathy is bull...but if homeopathy is bull...then "placebo" is bull...and this I won't go along with...

The statements aren't tied together. The placebo effect doesn't boast its successes in curing everything, isn't sold and bottled, doesn't claim to have tangible science of "molecule vibrations". Homeopathy does. The placebo effect is a psychological response, it is understood. Homeopathy has no science to dissect

Molecular vibration bullshit aside, I understand completely what you are trying to say Saleem...what I am saying...is that homeopathy is bull..thats not the argument....but if it is or not is irrelevant..if it can act as a placebo then it is what is is? Right?

 

[Saleem]

Let me say this....homoepathy is bull...but if homeopathy is bull...then "placebo" is bull...and this I won't go along with...

The statements aren't tied together. The placebo effect doesn't boast its successes in curing everything, isn't sold and bottled, doesn't claim to have tangible science of "molecule vibrations". Homeopathy does. The placebo effect is a psychological response, it is understood. Homeopathy has no science to dissect

Molecular vibration bullshit aside, I understand completely what you are trying to say Saleem...what I am saying...is that homeopathy is bull..thats not the argument....but if it is or not is irrelevant..if it can act as a placebo then it is what is is? Right?

Placebos (sugar pills) shouldnt be $80 a bottle.