Judging at BAB 2012

lavesh

Member
Messages
421
I had an issue with judging at BAB, and even if this makes me unpopular amongst the judges (3 of 4 who are my friends/acquintances), I need to call them out on what we feel is absolutely unacceptable feedback. At the mixer, two of the GJ captains were in the meeting with the judges. Based on the meeting, the judges brought up the following points:

1. They were going to be extremely "transparent" in their judging. This majority of the opening conversations dwelt on the fact that PCBCA had to go up against music teams because of the other live teams dropping. They said that they were looking for "Bhangra over gimmicks" when the traditional vs modern question came up. Also, please note that the rubric explicitly states "Gimmicks, , etc shall not be counted as creativity".
2. They were specifically watching for everyone to dance as a team, and no dancer should stand out. They stressed the importance of cleanliness and coordinated execution amongst the team.
3. They brought up the importance of respecting props and said they would dock points if props were violently tossed, kicked away, or touched with feet.
4. They spoke on the importance of nakhre, with everyone in the front giving the same nakhre as those int he back (consistency at all times of the routine).

Below is our video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3uCq4i-CZA

After the performance, 3 of the GJ captains (1 of whom was also in the judges meeting) met with the judges. The judges gave the following negative/deductions feedback (one of the captains was writing all the comments down verbatim on her phone):

1. "You went too hard with your saaps".
2. "Too much was going on during the daang segment".
3. "We liked your jhummar, but did not like your jhummar gimmick".
4. "Since you are a co-ed team, you need more jodi interaction in jhummar".
5. "Your backs were bent too much during fasla".
6. "You should not have started with 4 dancers on stage, and then built up to 16. It looked bad that you slowed down the music to get 8 more dancers on stage". Another judge specifically stated, "Only certain teams can go 16 - it would have probably been to your advantage to go 12".
7. "Energy was inconsistent between dancers in the front and the back - your dancers gave 105% in the front and 95% in the back".
8. "Overall, your execution of moves was poor".

They also brought up the usual issues such as mistakes, etc. which I agree with. It is also important to note that they did bring up positives and specifically mention that they thought our chimta player added to our performance, which was a huge boost to her confidence and development as a dancer.

Here are my issues:

1. When did your Ustaad ji's ever tell you that you shouldn't clap them hard or open them too wide? I also don't think its a stretch to say that the placing teams went "harder" than us in saaps - just go watch the videos. Absolutely subjective feedback, which is not how a judge is supposed to judge.
2. Completely agree that it can always be cleaner, but to say that "too much was going on", especially considering that every person was doing the same choreography to the segment referred to, really doesn't make a whole of lot sense to me.
3. This goes back to the original judges meeting - they specifically said that they would emphasize "bhangra over gimmicks" when watching the routine, but instead, heavily focused on our use of gimmicks in their critique. Again, ill leave it up to everyone to watch the placing teams' videos about their use of gimmicks.
4. So a co-ed team is supposed to have more jodi interaction than an all guys team - simply because they are a co-ed team? When did that become a rule in bhangra? Also, please note that almost our entire second jhummar song was looking at the jodi (16 beats) and first jhummar song had 8 beats of looking as well. We got this same feedback from them last year and specifically added more jodi interaction into this year's routine. Once again, how is this "objective" judging?
5. Not sure where these judges learned bhangra, but as we were taught from the PAU Agriculture University bhangra lineage, this is how we learned to do fasla. This style of bending and doing fasla is not particularly unique, as the dancers in the BTF instructional videos also mirror our style (just one example that comes to mind).
6. So who made the rule that going 16 should be judged any differently than 12? COMPLETELY subjective.
7. Watch our video, watch the other teams, and then please tell me how this comment is valid.
8. Watch our video, watch the other teams, and then please tell me how this comment is valid.

My goal of posting this is not to compare ourselves against any other teams - we worry about our own flaws, not others'. My issue is the blatantly subjective comments from the judges and their lack of consistency from the pre-competition meeting to the post-performance feedback. I would like for the judges to own up to their comments and explain them publicly, because at this point, their comments discouraged our dancers from continuing with bhangra, especially the newer ones. By no means was our performance perfect - if any of you have ever talked to me, you will know that I am the harshest bhangra critic out there (ask Hardeep haha). But the critiques from "qualified" judges should at least be valid.

Lastly, don't place this on any of my dancers - if you are going to hate on this post, do it directed towards ME. I am the one posting, not them. So go ahead judges - let's hear it.
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
Messages
2,072
I heard very similar complaints about the judges being vague from multiple teams. You are not alone, and should never feel wrong. Disputing the feedback and process of the judging is not the same as bashing judges, there's a difference and I think you're points are valid. Where people have issue I think is when it becomes defensive and is all about attacking judges comments to reduce their credibility, and subsequently their comments on the team. I think there's a bit of both in your post to be honest (but it's hard to avoid because by nature you're comparing teams and a judges comments as you said), but there's certainly some valid points I'm glad you brought up.


I think insinuating their comments are not 'valid' is where you step over. Their comments are inconsistent perhaps and maybe not clearly expressed, but you need to separate the judging from the judges. Putting 'qualified' in quotations and saying their judging should 'at least be valid' is attacking them personally. Saying you disagree and feel their feedback and rankings were inconsistent, abstract, and arbitrary is a better way to express your points I think.


But I agree with what you mean to say. Disagreements in subjective taste are inevitable (i.e. jori interactions between a co-ed and all guys teams, too much going on) but abstract concepts like 'you went too hard' are probably not as useful (and yes, you can even disagree which of these comments are abstract and tangible). Instead of 'you went too hard' there are better ways to say what they mean like 'dancers didn't seem in control of their execution' 'form suffered for energy' 'people appeared to dance independently with individual embellishments that distracted from performing in synch' etc etc


Side note: There's help on the way lavesh, I just need till this weekend and we're gonna drop kick judging in the circuit to a new level. Would love your support, stay tuned!
 
Messages
38
the same thing happened to nyu bhangra at blowout...vague and stupid critiques. what next, are you going to dock points because you didn't like the texture of our phuman?? you know its one thing when a team complains about placing, but there are also many of us that want to improve and all we ask is that you give us legitimate critiques and not opinions. i'm very curious to see how judging in the circuit changes this year
 

Govind

Member
Messages
364
On behalf of the BAB judging team, we welcome your feedback and encourage you to contact us directly with your questions.
Reading your post, I do think there is a discrepancy between what you believe we actually deducted points for and what were actually our individual (subjective) opinions/feedback for how your routine could have been improved. No offense taken at your post at all Lavesh; you have every right to be able to ask any questions you have and we encouraged you to follow up with us after our formal meeting. Perhaps these will be better addressed/clarified over the phone.

In terms of past dancing/judging experience and ability to judge this competition, the 5-person panel I had the privilege of serving on this weekend was indeed the strongest I have ever served on. Everyone may read the bios of the judges on bigapplebhangra.net. It's unfortunate that we only got between 7-10 minutes/team of feedback split among the five judges, but that's why we encouraged you at the end to follow up with us. We all stand by the final decisions/placing, and uphold the spirit of transparency in the judging process. We look forward to hearing from you.

Govind Rangrass
govind (at) rangrass.com
 

G. Sidhu

New Member
Messages
219
Hey Lavesh,

I will try to answer your concerns on my behalf and am not speaking on behalf of other judges. I can understand your frustration with those comments, but most of them are totally out of context and a lot was elaborated on those actual statements. Plus, I wished you had personally confirmed those with us since you know 3 out of 4 judges as you mentioned, and you yourself wasn't present at that time either. Also some of the feedback was given just for your team to improve upon, and your team wasn't penalized for it. I will try to remember as much I can regarding those comments.

I would also like emphasize, that the actual feel of watching a performance live and watching it on a video is different.

1) Playing sapps too hard was addressed as your team lost control with the speed and aggression it was played with. Which was mainly apparent during the beginning segment of your sapp/shikka choreography.

2) Regarding your danga segment from what I can recall, it was mentioned your transition into danga segment from sapps came off as messy, it was a lot more pronounced watching live than in the video. The balance of dancers was getting off while catching the daang, the daang wasn't caught by the dancer, etc.

3) Gimmicks for the most part are used to entertain the crowd, or to get an instant reaction. Gimmicks does not play any role in BAB rubric, however if it didn't enhance your performance, I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing it out. The jhummer choreography by itself was pretty nice.

4) I remember that comment made by one of the judges, and that particular judge just suggested that you can use being co-ed to your advantage by having more jodi interactions. You were not penalized for it, it was just a suggestion.

5) I personally don't remember this, and will try to find out which one said that, and perhaps can elaborate further.

6) Slowing down your props segment was mentioned in regards to that it could have been more stronger. When choreography drops from high speed to low speed, it can be done in a very strong manner, and that was it, that was suggested to improve upon, as it can have much stronger impact. Going 16 statement is again out of context, from what I can recall, the particular judge questioned if there was any particular reason the team went 16, as he believed going 12 instead would have had a better impact on the overall performance.


7) This was mainly towards one dancer, and I hate to point it out like this in a forum now. It was the yellow male dancer who would end up being little extra energetic when he was in the front. This was more apparent while watching the performance live, but I will try to point it out in the video.

-0:30 when yellow guy is going back he doesn't lift his legs as much (as compared to the rest of the team), but when he comes in the front, there instant release of extra energy.

-Here when he came to the front during 6:18 for Sir Kaddve Rakkaan song, he was lifting his legs higher and had more energy than during other segments during the dance.

As I said, this looks minor in the video, but it was more noticeable watching live.

8 ) Execution is where every dancer can improve upon. I am sure it was said that execution can be improved and not "poor".

I hope, I helped you with some of the points you stated. Also, I hope your teammates told you the positive things we mentioned lol.

Regards,
Gurkanwal S. Sidhu
 

Govind

Member
Messages
364
Thanks Sidhu for the post. I agreed with everything you posted here - every judge's statement had context that you explained well. Moreover, I agree that videos are not an accurate representation of the actual performance.


With regards to specifics on statements about the execution of certain moves (i.e. fasla), I would encourage teams to contact our fellow panel member Rajbir Grewal, who is both my teacher and the former captain of PAU Bhangra, for expert advice. He is an incredibly approachable guy and absolutely loves to teach, as many of you who took lessons from him after the comp was over learned.
 

MPElive

Ehhh Folllkkkkkk Ahhh !!
Messages
323
Lavesh, I believe Sidhu/Govind has covered majority of the questions and concerns you've had regarding your performance. It is judges' responsibility to point out what they liked in the routine and what a team can improve on for their future performances. In my opinion, your team received the longest feedback because we see a great potential in the kids on your team and as judges, we expect them to come out stronger at their next competition by working on the constructive criticism provided by us.

If any other teams have any questions or concerns about their performance, please feel free to contact my anytime.
 

arjunK

New Member
Messages
29
2. They were specifically watching for everyone to dance as a team, and no dancer should stand out. They stressed the importance of cleanliness and coordinated execution amongst the team.
This is also something I have been meaning to bring up for a while. I do apologize if this distracts from the conversation at hand but I strongly believe that, while it is important to dance as a unit and be clean, part of the joy of watching bhangra is to see the few people who are front and center in that particular formation to go nuts and thrive on the crowd's energy. Even in live sets from India, there is always SOME, albeit small level of variation between the styles of each dancer, and the jodi in the front and center, for the most part, adds some flare and style to their dancing. Not always, but it does happen. I think the AMOUNT of emphasis we put on cleanliness has kept several teams from flourishing and has, to some extent, curbed the creativity in terms of nakhra and dancing style on this circuit.

Sorry for butting in. Carry on.
 
Messages
69
G. Sidhu said:
Hey Lavesh,

I will try to answer your concerns on my behalf and am not speaking on behalf of other judges. I can understand your frustration with those comments, but most of them are totally out of context and a lot was elaborated on those actual statements. Plus, I wished you had personally confirmed those with us since you know 3 out of 4 judges as you mentioned, and you yourself wasn't present at that time either. Also some of the feedback was given just for your team to improve upon, and your team wasn't penalized for it. I will try to remember as much I can regarding those comments.

I would also like emphasize, that the actual feel of watching a performance live and watching it on a video is different.

1) Playing sapps too hard was addressed as your team lost control with the speed and aggression it was played with. Which was mainly apparent during the beginning segment of your sapp/shikka choreography.

2) Regarding your danga segment from what I can recall, it was mentioned your transition into danga segment from sapps came off as messy, it was a lot more pronounced watching live than in the video. The balance of dancers was getting off while catching the daang, the daang wasn't caught by the dancer, etc.

3) Gimmicks for the most part are used to entertain the crowd, or to get an instant reaction. Gimmicks does not play any role in BAB rubric, however if it didn't enhance your performance, I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing it out. The jhummer choreography by itself was pretty nice.

4) I remember that comment made by one of the judges, and that particular judge just suggested that you can use being co-ed to your advantage by having more jodi interactions. You were not penalized for it, it was just a suggestion.

5) I personally don't remember this, and will try to find out which one said that, and perhaps can elaborate further.

6) Slowing down your props segment was mentioned in regards to that it could have been more stronger. When choreography drops from high speed to low speed, it can be done in a very strong manner, and that was it, that was suggested to improve upon, as it can have much stronger impact. Going 16 statement is again out of context, from what I can recall, the particular judge questioned if there was any particular reason the team went 16, as he believed going 12 instead would have had a better impact on the overall performance.


7) This was mainly towards one dancer, and I hate to point it out like this in a forum now. It was the yellow male dancer who would end up being little extra energetic when he was in the front. This was more apparent while watching the performance live, but I will try to point it out in the video.

-0:30 when yellow guy is going back he doesn't lift his legs as much (as compared to the rest of the team), but when he comes in the front, there instant release of extra energy.

-Here when he came to the front during 6:18 for Sir Kaddve Rakkaan song, he was lifting his legs higher and had more energy than during other segments during the dance.

As I said, this looks minor in the video, but it was more noticeable watching live.

8 ) Execution is where every dancer can improve upon. I am sure it was said that execution can be improved and not "poor".

I hope, I helped you with some of the points you stated. Also, I hope your teammates told you the positive things we mentioned lol.

Regards,
Gurkanwal S. Sidhu
G. Sidhu,

With refrence to your point #3, judges compared our gimmicks with other teams which is unacceptable.

#7 - Yes his energy dropped, but the drop wasnt significant. As i was watching a few teams dance, i saw several dancers loose their energy as the move from front to back ( some of them were quite noticeable). Now i am not bashing other teams or anything, just stating that there were several dancers who did this.

#8 "Execution can be improved" is itself pretty vague. We would appreciate if judges can be more explicit about our moves so that we can improve upon.

ps. I always wondered what judges think is "traditional". I know we have live and modern category, but bhangra shouldn't deviate of what it is composed of. I have seen alot of placing team doing a half-assed move ( non-traditional) and still place. I dont know if its just me but i have noticed judges focus more towards energy than moves. We really like to improve and learn from our mistakes. So i would like to have an honest answer, on what should we focus more on?

Thanks
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
Messages
2,072
I really recommend starting an email thread with all the judges and taking it off-forum. This is not the best place for it and it'll be much more productive.
 

lavesh

Member
Messages
421
Swi said:
I really recommend starting an email thread with all the judges and taking it off-forum. This is not the best place for it and it'll be much more productive.
already been done, thanks...and keep me updated about your ideas for improving judging!

again, the point of this thread was to show how vague and incosistent some of the comments were - the judges are accountable for their feedback, are they not? we certainly do appreciate the positive aspects, and thanks to sidhu for actually posting exactly what he felt. even though i still strongly disagree with some points, i will leave those to our post thread discussion (thanks for reaching out govind).
 
Messages
237
This is more of a "peanut gallery" comment because I neither dance on a bhangra team, nor am I interested in judging of competitions. I am simply an interested observer; I just wandered into this thread.


I read the complaints about the judges' critique. Then I watched the video.


When I watched the video, all of the critiques of the judges (except the "low energy in back" one -- I wasn't watching that closely) seemed to have a basis. The only thing I disagreed with, actually, was the compliment of the chimte-waali; I don't get what she was doing or why she was there, though I suppose she did do a great job for whatever purpose it was. Also, I think jhummar done in any bhangra looks stupid almost always, but I would not hold that as a unique strike against you! I personally liked your jumps at the end, and the large number of dancers made it exciting. And if "high energy" were a criterion, I'd give those points to you!


You can take this comment with a whole tub of Morton's Iodized Salt if you want, since again, I don't claim to have a deep knowledge of these debates. But as someone just viewing the performance on video, I saw things that didn't look great, and the judges' comments nailed most of them. Once again, this is just an impression of an observer that the comments had some validity.


As to what is "traditional," seriously, nothing is traditional in today's North American bhangra in terms of form...people need to quit kidding themselves. Some of the moves date to like 1970s, but even the way those moves are done/stylized is no earlier than 1990s. So unless someone writes up a handbook outlining what should now be defined as traditional (with a specification of "since the year xyz"), that aspect is always going to be subjective. And that, I suppose, is why you have more than one judge.
 

Sue Sylvester

kinnell
Messages
467
I think it's really easy to forget that judges are present at competitions to place the top 3 teams. Giving feedback and specific ways to improve is just extra and judges should not be penalized for poor or no feedback. They should definitely stand behind their score sheets, but given the quantitative nature of rubrics, I think an accurate "Your team was not as clean, creative, energetic, graceful or complex..etc as the other teams" should suffice as explanation from the judges. It becomes pointless to ask for specificities when most judging decisions to place or not to place involve the judges to look at the overall picture and feedback, coaching advice from the judges on how to improve should be treated as "off-the-record" conversation independent of placings.

arjunK said:
This is also something I have been meaning to bring up for a while. I do apologize if this distracts from the conversation at hand but I strongly believe that, while it is important to dance as a unit and be clean, part of the joy of watching bhangra is to see the few people who are front and center in that particular formation to go nuts and thrive on the crowd's energy. Even in live sets from India, there is always SOME, albeit small level of variation between the styles of each dancer, and the jodi in the front and center, for the most part, adds some flare and style to their dancing. Not always, but it does happen. I think the AMOUNT of emphasis we put on cleanliness has kept several teams from flourishing and has, to some extent, curbed the creativity in terms of nakhra and dancing style on this circuit.
Just because India does it doesn't mean we should. We dance for completely different audiences and we have different resources to create and polish our sets. And the amount of individual nakhra that Indian teams do is still minor and the level of control and cleanliness is still quite high - perhaps only 3-4 music teams in North America are able to perform at that level these days. The rest of the teams are bullshitting themselves if they think they've even come close to be sacrificing dancing style or having fun for the sake of cleanliness. Enjoying the performance, smiling and looking alive are very important regardless but there is a "chill-running-down-your-spin"-inducing feeling that comes with watching a team of dancers without egos.

Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan said:
As to what is "traditional," seriously, nothing is traditional in today's North American bhangra in terms of form...people need to quit kidding themselves. Some of the moves date to like 1970s, but even the way those moves are done/stylized is no earlier than 1990s. So unless someone writes up a handbook outlining what should now be defined as traditional (with a specification of "since the year xyz"), that aspect is always going to be subjective. And that, I suppose, is why you have more than one judge.
This topic always makes me gag.... so like 50 Shades of Traditionality, eh?
 

Ashveer

New Member
Messages
492
Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan said:
As to what is "traditional," seriously, nothing is traditional in today's North American bhangra in terms of form...people need to quit kidding themselves. Some of the moves date to like 1970s, but even the way those moves are done/stylized is no earlier than 1990s. So unless someone writes up a handbook outlining what should now be defined as traditional (with a specification of "since the year xyz"), that aspect is always going to be subjective. And that, I suppose, is why you have more than one judge.
I wish you would have been here about 6 years ago to sht all over everyone's hubris about traditionally and FOLK FOLK BRAP BRAP
 
Messages
237
Sue Sylvester said:
This topic always makes me gag.... so like 50 Shades of Traditionality, eh?

Shades? No. Although the concept of judging on degree of "traditionality"...about as nutty and impressionistic a scale as "Godliness" or "mutability" or "splendiferousness" or "gayness" or even "bhangraliciousness"...ooh, how about "piety" or "reverence"?... would actually suggest shades (degrees). I am saying the opposite. The concept of traditional movements in American bhangra dance does not hold water. Score for traditional is zero.


I'm sure some judges feel good when they get to assess "how traditional" something is, because it gives them satisfaction that they have supposed knowledge of tradition, and they reaffirm that when they make a judgement. But I suspect the criteria will always be highly subjective, and people will continue to bitch...and gag.


Show me another competitive sport or graded art form that is judged on traditionality.


I know this has been discussed a lot. Yet people still won't let go of the vague concept of traditionality. Probably because, for some people, evoking a vague sense of traditionality is precisely why bhangra exists. I think those people need to try to step out of that box to envision how bhangra can exist without the purpose of evoking/articulating/embodying some concept of traditionality. I'll bet the first bhangra dancers were not worried about traditionality; other interests shaped their dancing. But here's a hint: not striving for the impression of traditionality does not mean the dance is going to spiral into some wild unrecognizable thing that lacks any of the prior established aesthetics. The farce of traditionality is not keeping bhangra "in check" and it never has. No more than if you had been judging dancers on criteria of "faith" and then they became atheists. "Hooray, we're no longer being scored on traditionality! Now we can rip off our shirts like Lou Ferrigno and do the Suicide Dive like we've always wanted to!"


Another thing to ponder, for the experts here (of which I am not one), is when this "traditionality" started appearing on the scoring sheets. It didn't just pop out of nowhere. It's not a given. What motivated it in the very beginning? -- what were the motives of the individuals who first added it before it, presumably, spread (e.g. during the "live" trend)? And it would be interesting to know whether the people who introduced it were people that we think knew what they were talking about, or just overzealous "uncles" or uncles-in-training.
 

sumeetj

Active Member
Messages
631
the traditional modern debate that has been beaten down is ridiculous, and honestly the way that "traditionality" is counted on judging rubrics is wrong, in my opinion. pretty much it seems that if a team chooses to execute their jhummar in a certain way, their dhamaal in a certain way, etc, as long as they did that segment/move, they get points for it (or so it seems from the judges meetings I have been to).

i just find that kinda contradictory because when I have danced with a live team, the judges would specifically point out good posture, good shoulder movements, dancing wide and strong, etc. yes, music and live teams are technically judged differently, but say at a competition like bab where they were thrown together?

i think its almost pure common sense that when most of us think of traditionality, we think of executing a move in a way a LIVE TEAM would be taught, right? i mean we can argue all day about what is truly "folk" or not, how bhangra really isnt this "ancient" art form, etc, but when we think traditional, our mind automatically jumps to a live team right?

and that brings me to the main point i am trying to bring, is that when teams like gajjdi jawani and even my own try to emphasize those characteristics (keep your chest up, shoulders bouncy and heavy, wide dancing, hand form, etc), it doesnt seem appreciated vs teams who may have barely any shoulder involvement in their jhummar/jugni/dhamaal/etc, teams that never get low while they dance, bended backs, etc.

again, not saying that my teams performance at bab was perfect, we had plenty of errors, plenty of dancers, including myself, who didn't execute some moves properly. also, with gajjdi jawani, its not like every single kid out their maintained proper posture and shoulders, etc, the entire time. but it just seems appreciation for that style of dancing is truly gone, and judges/competitions need to stop referring to that as "traditionality". i can literally see a bharatnatyam team going to a bhangra competition and placing simply because they might segment a performance in ways that a move here or there resembles sialkoti, luddi, or whatever.

disclaimer: i am in no way using this post to a bash any other teams. the examples i have given are things ive noticed over the last 2-3 years, not simply at bab or last years bab alone.
 

arjunK

New Member
Messages
29
Sue Sylvester said:
arjunK said:
This is also something I have been meaning to bring up for a while. I do apologize if this distracts from the conversation at hand but I strongly believe that, while it is important to dance as a unit and be clean, part of the joy of watching bhangra is to see the few people who are front and center in that particular formation to go nuts and thrive on the crowd's energy. Even in live sets from India, there is always SOME, albeit small level of variation between the styles of each dancer, and the jodi in the front and center, for the most part, adds some flare and style to their dancing. Not always, but it does happen. I think the AMOUNT of emphasis we put on cleanliness has kept several teams from flourishing and has, to some extent, curbed the creativity in terms of nakhra and dancing style on this circuit.
Just because India does it doesn't mean we should. We dance for completely different audiences and we have different resources to create and polish our sets. And the amount of individual nakhra that Indian teams do is still minor and the level of control and cleanliness is still quite high - perhaps only 3-4 music teams in North America are able to perform at that level these days. The rest of the teams are bullshitting themselves if they think they've even come close to be sacrificing dancing style or having fun for the sake of cleanliness. Enjoying the performance, smiling and looking alive are very important regardless but there is a "chill-running-down-your-spin"-inducing feeling that comes with watching a team of dancers without egos.

Just to clarify - my sentiment was more "because India does it i don't see why we can't do it", not we should. I don't think I agree that the individual nakhra that Indian teams do is minor, at least as a general statement, because I have seen a good amount where it isn't. I'm not saying to remove cleanliness completely - I just think it is emphasized entirely too much, and it takes away from other aspects of the dance.

<3 u kinnell
 
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