Questions for Sikhs

[Summy]

Wow, your post was ridicolous. The guru's ate meat eh? Ha. YOu have provided NO, not one mehl, not one bani, not anything that supports meat eating. I have provided many, yet you say you have shown your evidence. What evidence? The fact that you said, its obsecure and not known for sure. Thats your opinion, not a single peice of evidence have you supported. Eating meat has only been supported in the west, it was never an issue in India for so long, its kalyug, thats all i am saying.

Yeah calling Guru Ji a hunter, when you, yourself admit you dont know the basics of mukti, is horribly offensive, and shows that you have no respect. Everyone can respect the guru, but there is differences of how you show it.

Yeah, your not a sikh. When was being a sikh defined? March 30th, 1699. That day in Anandpur when guru gobind singh jee said that those who are known has sikhs shall take amrit. Nothing you do separates yourself like the thousands of causal admirers of sikhi. You are know as a sikh when you are baptised. So, please become more educated on that front.

Read more on the history of terrorism in punjab. Yeah panj pyare were asked whether the tactics they used which included killing innocents is okay. They replied with defend one's faith. Panj pyare exist all over the world, and are human just like me and you, I respect a granthi as much as I respect them.

I think youve spent too much time in the west. I dont keep my personal guru as the same level as the 11 guru's. Guru is known as a teacher. There is a difference. Just because I call my teacher my guru, doesnt mean he is the same as Guru Nanak Dev Jee, hahaha, wow.



When you decide to provide some evidence other than your personal opinion, then we will talk, in the meantime, have another read:

You kill living beings and worship lifeless things, at your very last moment, You will suffer terrible pain. (SGGS Aang332)

Kabir, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (SGGS Aang1337)

In this dark age of Kali Yuga, people have faces like dogs; They eat rotting dead bodies for food. (SGGS Aang1242 The Vars of Bhai Gurdas Ji are known as the 'kunji' (key) to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. Var 31 pauree 9 : "Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,That does not mean that we can kill animals and eat them."

Tell me when you want to me to stop...

 

[ban3rg]

In my case, I do eat meat. I feel there is no wrong done by me eating meat that is NOT Hallal. I do not touch Hallal food knowingly, I do not drink, I do no drugs, I do paht everyday (prakash and sukhasn), but does me eating meat make me a bad sikh?

Why is eating Halal meat forbidden?

As far as I know (source: Halal Wiki) halal simply means the following is forbidden:

* Pork meat (i.e. flesh of swine)[Qur'an 2:173]
* Blood[Qur'an 2:173]
* Animals slaughtered in the name of anyone but Allah (God) (there are debates regarding the permissibility of meat slaughtered by Jews, i.e., kosher meat).[Qur'an 2:173]

* Carrion[Qur'an 5:3]

* "Fanged beasts of prey" as per the Sunnah, usually simplified to all carnivorous animals, with the exception of most fish and sea animals[citation needed]. However, striped hyena meat is permitted in the nations of Sistan, Kohat, Bannu, and Cholistan, because the striped hyena is an omnivore, rather than a purely carnivorous animal.[3]

* The meat of donkeys.
* All insects except for the locust


So why would this conflict with anything in Sikhism? Is it just that meat is forbidden in general (and hence halal meat falls under that category) or is there a particular problem with halal meat that other meat does not?

 

[ban3rg]

Never mind, I looked it up and found a possible answer:

Why then the rejection of kutta or halal meat? The first is that halal meat is produced through a particular religious rite and Sikhs should not take part in religious rites apart from the Sikh Reht Maryada (Code of Conduct). From this perspective eating halal meat could be compared to receiving Christian communion. The second reason may be that the Khalsa rules seem directed to Muslim converts. The four prohibitions are: cutting of hair, sex with a Muslim lady, use of tobacco, eating halal meat. These are all things that a Muslim male might do and the prohibitions are designed as boundary markers for them.
Source:http://pof.reonline.org.uk/pupil_sikh_suppl.php

Originally I thought that an animal being killed in Allah's name would not violate Sikhi because it is a tolerant religion - but then (as the passage above explains) I realized it makes sense since accepting meat that was offered to Allah would be similar to accepting Allah, which would conflict with acceptance of the Guru.

I mistakenly confused "tolerance" with "acceptance." Tolerance just means "not trying to convert others" whereas "acceptanct" might mean "believing in faiths other than your own, or at the expense of your own."

 

[ranjit singh]

The following is an article I came across a while back that is very pertinent to the current discussion. It is not my intention to offend anyone, but rather to share a different perspective on this very controversial and often misunderstood issue.

The Taboo of Halal for Sikhs by Baldev Singh, PHd

Recently, Gurtej Singh, national professor of Sikhism has published an article on the taboo of Halal for the Sikhs in the Abstracts of Sikh Studies, October-December, 1996. Professor Singh has followed traditional lines based on Rehit Namas (manuals of code of conduct), and the misinterpretation of Guru Nanak's comments on Halal in Asa Di Var to explain the origin of this taboo. I had hoped that an eminent scholar like Professor Singh will shed new light on this topic by providing a rational explanation based on Gurbani or the writings of Guru Gobind Singh. He has left the readers rather confused by making contradictory statements. For example, in the opening paragraph, first, he states that the Guru commands a Sikh to use reason in the worship of God (aklin sahib seviai)[1], and then he goes on to persuade the readers that taboos are to be followed meticulously without questioning their validity. Furthermore, in the example showing Guru Gobind Singh's immense love for animals, the author says that Guru Gobind Singh cursed Baba Dan Singh's young son for hitting Guru's horse. Cursing is not the attribute of a Brahm Gyani according to Gurabani, and I firmly believe that the Ten Nanaks were Brahm Gyanies.

There is no mention of the prohibition of Halal for Sikhs, either in Guru Granth Sahib or in the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh according to my knowledge. However, the taboo of Halal for the Khalsa is found in the Rehit Namas, which were written by others long after the death of Guru Gobind Singh. These Rehit Namas have been used in drawing up the current Rehit Maryada (code of conduct) for the Sikhs. Sardar Piara Singh Padam has compiled fifteen Rehit Namas in a book form with his critique as a foreword. Every Sikh should read this book to understand the motives of the authors of the Rehit Namas. Some of the contents of the Rehit Namas are spurious, inconsistent with Gurbani, and unflattering to the Khalsa.

Those who interpret Guru Nanak's hymn (abhakhya ka kutha bakra khanha, eating the meat of a male goat slaughtered in a Halal manner) as condemnation of eating Halal, should read his commentary on the behavior of Khatries of his time in Asa Di Var, on page 471 of Guru Granth Sahib. Guru Nanak did not condemn the partaking of Halal meat, rather he condemned the hypocrisy of the Khatries. The Khatries had abdicated their religious duties of defending their country and the weak, and taking a resolute stand against tyranny and injustice. Furthermore, the subjugated Khatries had adopted the language, manners and dress of their Muslim conquerors whom they called malech (polluted ones). Some of them sought employment with the Muslim conquers, and some of them held high ranks, and were responsible for the persecution of the Hindu masses. However, these Khatries were very strict and rigid in the practice of caste system and other meaningless rituals. It was in this context when Guru Nanak ridiculed Khatries by pointing out that while they were meticulously observing the ritual purity of their food and kitchen by not allowing people of lower castes near their kitchens, they were eating the flesh of animals slaughtered in a Halal fashion by Muslims whom they considered malech.

I have the following questions for those who interpret the above described hymn as condemnation of partaking Halal. If Guru Nanak had proscribed Halal, then why the Tenth Nanak had to declare Halal as a taboo for the Khalsa? Were not the Sikhs following Guru Nanak's teachings? How come there is no statement on the taboo of Halal by either of the other Eight Nanaks? If Guru Gobind Singh had appointed Guru Granth Sahib as the eternal Guru of the Sikhs, then why Sikhs have to look for their Rehat Maryada (code of conduct ) in other places like Rehit Namas? Should not Guru Granth Sahib be a guide for a Sikh in every walk of life? Let me put forward an alternative explanation for the taboo of Halal.

Halal is the slaughter of animals or birds according to religious rituals involving the cutting of the jugular vein slowly while the blood is being drained out completely. This process of slaughter prolongs the suffering of an animal or a bird. It is essentially a slow death by torture. It is mandatory for Muslims and Jews to slaughter animals only in a Halal fashion for meat for human consumption. Law in western countries prohibits Halal style slaughter of animals or birds. Jews and Muslims are exempt from this law on religious grounds. One of the reasons for this ban is the cruelty of this method of slaughter, which prolongs the suffering of animals and birds.

Debating the virtues of being a vegetarian versus nonvegetarian is futile according to Gurbani. Guru Nanak summed up so beautifully and eloquently when he said, " Food which affects the body and mind adversely should be avoided ( baba hor khana khusi khuar, jis khade tan piriai man mein chalai vikar) [2]. Meat is just a part of human diet (jean ka aharjea khana eh karai)[3], and Gurbani neither encourages nor discourages a Sikh from partaking meat. However, the Hindu ancestors of Sikhs were generally vegetarians due to the influence of Jainism, Budhism and various sects of Hinduism which also abhorred eating flesh. Probably, there were very few Sikhs whose diet consisted of flesh during the time of the first five Gurus. The martyrdom of Guru Arjan brought new challenges to the young Sikh faith. The Master of miri and piri raised an army to fight against the Mughal rulers and their Khatri collaborators who were out to destroy him. He was an avid game hunter himself, and he encouraged his followers to do the same. His eldest son Baba Gurdita died in a hunting accident. The warlike atmosphere put greater emphasis on physical fitness and bodily strength, which required changes in the dietary habits of the Sikhs. I think more and more Sikhs started eating meat during this period and this trend continued with successive Gurus. The hunting expeditions of the rider of the blue steed (Guru Gobind Singh) are very well known. I think a significant number of Sikhs were including meat in their diet by the time Khalsa was created. The increased demand for meat required the slaughter of a large number of domestic animals like goats and sheep. It was, perhaps, under these circumstances that Guru Gobind Singh issued a proclamation about the manner in which the animals were to be slaughtered.

Of course, every method of slaughter is cruel and painful. However, Jhatka style slaughter is very quick, and the animal suffers for a very short period. That is why in western countries, slaughterhouses use those methods that end the life of animals as quickly as possible. It is possible that before the arrival of Muslims, meat-eating Hindus used to slaughter the animals by Jhatka method. Since one of the foremost attributes of a Sikh is compassion, Guru Gobind Singh issued an edict for those members of the Khalsa fraternity who ate meat, to slaughter the animals by the Jhatka method only.

Did Guru Gobind Singh proscribe the eating of Halal by the Khalsa prepared by Muslims? I do not think so, because Guru Gobind Singh's dearest friends and followers were Muslims. These were his Muslim friends, not high caste Hindus, who came to his help at very critical times during his battles and they made supreme sacrifices for him. They did not hold any thing back for his sake. It is hard for me to imagine that the Master of the white hawk and his nonvegetarian Sikhs would have declined to partake Halal prepared by Muslim friends. Additionally, what is the rational for a nonvegetarian Sikh against eating Halal? Probably, none! Then, who issued this edict that the Khalsa should not eat Halal? I think the followers of Kautlya are responsible for this edict. To understand my hypothesis, one has to understand the working of the mind of a Brahmin when he deals with his opponents.

Brahmins and their allies have used Kautlya's (also known as Chanakya) policy to overpower or destroy religions which challenged their supremacy and posed a threat to their way of life. They have used this policy very successfully to strangle Sikhism. There are three very important features of this policy. First, infiltrate the ranks of the enemy to cause internal conflicts by playing one group against the other, resulting in destruction from within. The schismatic movements within Sikhism and other the problems Sikhs have been facing since 1947 are largely the product of this strategy. Second, destroy the opposing faith by spreading disinformation against it, and by interpolating contradictory ideology in the religious texts of the opposing faith. This causes confusion among the followers leading to weakening of commitment to the faith and cohesiveness of the community. The false report about the teachings of Sikh faith to Mughal authorities, the campaign to malign the entire Sikh community by labeling them as lawless, violent and terrorist all over the world for the last two decades, and the creation of kachi bani (false bani) should be seen in this light.

Guru Arjan, the apostle of peace, put an end to the spread of kachi bani by compiling the Adi Granth. The efforts to distort the fundamentals of Sikhism were relentless. The Janam Sakhi (biography) of Guru Nanak was distorted very successfully. Furthermore, the foes of Sikhism got a golden opportunity to carry out their nefarious deeds after the death of Guru Gobind Singh. They mixed the writings of Guru Gobind Singh with the writing of others and compiled a voluminous book, which is called Dasam Granth currently. There is very little in this book, which is consistent with Gurbani, and can be considered as the composition of Guru Gobind Singh. The purpose of this book was to make Guru Gobind Singh look like a devout follower of a Hindu goddess, protector of Hinduism, and destroyer of Islam. Third, destroy your opponents by creating deadly conflicts between them. This machination had an active role in the deadly conflicts between the Mughals and Sikhs, which lasted for two centuries. Religion cannot be the basis of conflict between the Mhughals and Sikhs, because Islam and Sikhism are so similar. Recently, I was reading a book on the philosophy of Islam by Hazrat Mirza Gularn Ahmed. While I was reading this book, 1 felt as if I was reading the pages of Sri Guru Granth Sahib. If religion had been the cause of conflict between Islam and Sikhism, then, Professor Iqbal, one of the greatest poet and philosopher of this century would not have paid glorious tribute in his poetry to Guru Nanak, and Pir Budhu Shaw would not have sacrificed his dear ones for the sake of Guru Gobind Singh. The followers of Kautlya were not content just with the deadly conflicts between the Mughal rulers and Sikhs only, but also they wanted a complete rupture of social ties between Muslims and Sikhs. This objective was accomplished through Rehit Namas.

The two taboos for the Khalsa mentioned in Rehit Namas are eating of Halal and a sexual relation with a Muslim woman. The later taboo has been replaced by adultery for a Sikh in the current Rehit Maryada. The Rehit Namas also urge the Khalsa to destroy the Turks (Muslims), and not have any social interaction with them. The above-mentioned items, in my opinion, have played a considerable role in undermining the friendly relations between Sikhs and Muslims after the death of Guru Gobind Singh. The taboo of Halal was practiced to such extremes that Sikhs stopped eating every kind of food cooked by Muslims. I was very young in 1947, but 1 have learned from the elders that Sikhs who originated from higher Hindu castes, used to treat Muslim Jats and Rajputs the same way as they treated lower caste Hindus when it came to inter-dining. In Panjabi there is saying that we do not have fraternal relation with those with whom we do not share our kitchen and food (jina nal sadi chulai chaunkai di ate khan pin di sanjh nahin ohna nal sada bhaichara hi kahda). This resulted in minimal social interactions between Sikhs and Muslims, and that is what the followers of Kautlya wanted. No Sikh ever paid any attention to the consequences of this attitude of the Sikhs toward Muslims.

I wish Sikh scholars have dealt with Rehit Namas, Dasam Granth and other old writings which distort Sikh philosophy and are unflattering to the Khalsa, as effectively as they have dealt with the writings of W.H. McLeod, Hajot Oberoi, Pashaura Singh, and Khushwant Singh.
----------

[1] Mahala 1, Ad Guru Granth Sahib, p. 1245
[2] Mahala 1, Ad Guru Granth Sahib, p. 16
[3] Mahala 1, Ad Guru Granth Sahib, p. 955

 

[Sher]

Wow, your post was ridicolous. The guru's ate meat eh? Ha. YOu have provided NO, not one mehl, not one bani, not anything that supports meat eating. I have provided many, yet you say you have shown your evidence. What evidence? The fact that you said, its obsecure and not known for sure. Thats your opinion, not a single peice of evidence have you supported. Eating meat has only been supported in the west, it was never an issue in India for so long, its kalyug, thats all i am saying.

Yeah calling Guru Ji a hunter, when you, yourself admit you dont know the basics of mukti, is horribly offensive, and shows that you have no respect. Everyone can respect the guru, but there is differences of how you show it.

Yeah, your not a sikh. When was being a sikh defined? March 30th, 1699. That day in Anandpur when guru gobind singh jee said that those who are known has sikhs shall take amrit. Nothing you do separates yourself like the thousands of causal admirers of sikhi. You are know as a sikh when you are baptised. So, please become more educated on that front.

Read more on the history of terrorism in punjab. Yeah panj pyare were asked whether the tactics they used which included killing innocents is okay. They replied with defend one's faith. Panj pyare exist all over the world, and are human just like me and you, I respect a granthi as much as I respect them.

I think youve spent too much time in the west. I dont keep my personal guru as the same level as the 11 guru's. Guru is known as a teacher. There is a difference. Just because I call my teacher my guru, doesnt mean he is the same as Guru Nanak Dev Jee, hahaha, wow.

I don't think I said Gurus ate meat, but if I did i apologize. As far as me being Sikh, I definitely am one, it really doesn't matter whether you consider me to be one or not. Taking amrit isn't the only requirement of being a Sikh, you must still uphold the commitments you made like limiting your ego (you might want to work on this one). As you put it in a previous post, I guess you could call me a Sajjandhari Sikh on the way to becoming a Gursikh. But as I said, a real Sikh doesn't care about these labels.

A couple of meat eating arguments:1. Guru Gobind Singh Ji favored Shikar(hunting)
2.Guru Nanak dev Ji cooked meat at Kurukshetra to attract attention of Pundits
3. When being baptised at Akal Takth Sahib the Punj Piaras give the choice to the newly inducted Khalsa about eating meat or otherwise.
4. Early Sikhs living in forests as part of some Misls(Groups)and even the army of Banda Bahadur killed wild animals and ate the flesh after cooking.
5. The Rehat Maryada, which all Sikhs should follow says we shouldn't eat halal meat (why specify if no meat is allowed?
6. The tabla (not used during the gurus time) and string instruments (used during the gurus time) both use animal parts
7. Plants are living too. Should we just not eat anything?
8. There is evidence that meat was served as langar during Guru Angad's time
9. Meat is served as maha-prasad in some Gurdwaras in India
10. Guru Gobind Singh killed animals when creating the Khalsa

Also, someone talked about how you shouldn't eat meat because of animal cruelty... I hope you dont drink milk either because they don't exactly treat the cows with respect either

As I said earlier, you have your reasons and i have mine. I really don't see any point in continuing this argument as it really isn't getting us anywhere. You are right in your points and I am right in mine. Now I leave you with quotes.

Here's a shabad where Guru Nanak talks about the pain plants experience when they are cut and eaten:
मः १ ॥
Mehlā 1.
First Mehl:

ਵੇਖੁ ਜਿ ਮਿਠਾ ਕਟਿਆ ਕਟਿ ਕੁਟਿ ਬਧਾ ਪਾਇ ॥
वेखु जि मिठा कटिआ कटि कुटि बधा पाइ ॥
vėkẖ je miṯẖā kati?ā kat kut baḏẖā pā?ė.
Look, and see how the sugar-cane is cut down. After cutting away its branches, its feet are bound together into bundles,

ਖੁੰਢਾ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਰਖਿ ਕੈ ਦੇਨਿ ਸੁ ਮਲ ਸਜਾਇ ॥
खुंढा अंदरि रखि कै देनि सु मल सजाइ ॥
Kẖundẖā anḏar rakẖ kai ḏėn so mal sajā?ė.
and then, it is placed between the wooden rollers and crushed.

ਰਸੁ ਕਸੁ ਟਟਰਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਤਪੈ ਤੈ ਵਿਲਲਾਇ ॥
रसु कसु टटरि पाईऐ तपै तै विललाइ ॥
Ras kas tatar pā?ī?ai ṯapai ṯai villā?ė.
What punishment is inflicted upon it! Its juice is extracted and placed in the cauldron; as it is heated, it groans and cries out.

ਭੀ ਸੋ ਫੋਗੁ ਸਮਾਲੀਐ ਦਿਚੈ ਅਗਿ ਜਾਲਾਇ ॥
भी सो फोगु समालीऐ दिचै अगि जालाइ ॥
Bẖī so fog samālī?ai ḏicẖai ag jālā?ė.
And then, the crushed cane is collected and burnt in the fire below.

ਨਾਨਕ ਮਿਠੈ ਪਤਰੀਐ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਲੋਕਾ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
नानक मिठै पतरीऐ वेखहु लोका आइ ॥२॥
Nānak miṯẖai paṯrī?ai vėkẖhu lokā ā?ė. ||2||
Nanak: come, people, and see how the sweet sugar-cane is treated! ||2||

Another from Guru Granth Sahib:
"Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not. Who can define what is meat and what is not meat? Who knows where the sin lies, being a vegetarian or a non-vegetarian?" (1289)

From rehat maryada:
1. Dishonouring the hair;
2. Eating the meat of an animal slaughtered the Muslim way;
3. Cohabiting with a person other than one's spouse;
4. Using tobacco.

This website has alot of good information that you can read.. I dont feel like copying and pasting:
http://www.sikhs.org/meat_au.htm

 

[Sher]

my bad for making such a long post hahaha

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

Summy I know you a very confident of your beliefs and everything but it is unwise to so aggressive when arguing with someone. Realize this is just some random forum and although you have a different view than Shers neither of your opinions will change. Yall both are Singhs and therefore brothers. Stop hatin on eachother haha. Also, you told Sher there is no bani that allows meat eating. There is also no bani saying meat eating is bad.

On a side note, the thing Ranjit posted was really interesting and a good read.

Also I wanted to post this link because it covers alot of this argument (alot of what sher said is in here)

http://pof.reonline.org.uk/pupil_sikh_suppl.php

 

[mafzal]

Halal is the slaughter of animals or birds according to religious rituals involving the cutting of the jugular vein slowly while the blood is being drained out completely. This process of slaughter prolongs the suffering of an animal or a bird. It is essentially a slow death by torture. It is mandatory for Muslims and Jews to slaughter animals only in a Halal fashion for meat for human consumption. Law in western countries prohibits Halal style slaughter of animals or birds. Jews and Muslims are exempt from this law on religious grounds. One of the reasons for this ban is the cruelty of this method of slaughter, which prolongs the suffering of animals and birds.

Where on earth did you get your definition of halal, ranjit??!! Your definition is completely twisted. Personally I'm insulted that you would even think let alone say Muslim's eat tortured-animal meat, and you look silly for not checking the facts. Are you serious?

In Arabic, halal means "that which is allowed, permitted or permissible." Thus, "halal meat" is meat that is considered permissible in Islam. Basically everything is halal, unless it is obviously questionable or has been specifically declared haram.

"Zabiha" is a method of slaughtering an animal so as to cause it the absolute least amount of psychological suffering and physical pain, as well as to be the cleanest and healthiest.

 

[mafzal]

Details
* Animal has to be fed as normal and given water prior to slaughter, one animal must not see the other being slaughtered, knife should be four times the size of the neck and razor sharp, and as far as possible the slaughterer and the animal should face
The slaughter must be done manually using a sharp steel knife.

* Slaughtering is to be done from the front of the neck, between the throat and the head of the breast bone. The throat/oesophagus, windpipe/trachea and the two jugular veins are cut in the neck without severing the spinal cord. This cut severes the arteries to the brain of the animal, thus depriving the brain of blood supply. As a result, the brain loses consciousness due to insufficient oxygen. This renders the animal unconscious, causing the animal the least amount of pain.

* Muslims are enjoined to slaughter their livestock by slitting the animal's throat in a very swift and merciful manner, saying, ? Bismillah Allah-u-Akbar? "In the name of God, God is Most Great." This is in acknowledgement that the life of this creature if taken by God's permission to meet one's lawful need for food.

* The animal is then bled completely, so you don't consume animal blood thus enjoy complete healthy Halal Fresh Meat with highest standards of cleanliness, purity, and healthiness

Further details available at http://www.ehalal.org/zabiha.html

 

[ranjit singh]

that's not my definition, it's from an article i found

btw very interesting post, i would love to learn more about halal meat, i've heard so many differing things on the subject (from muslims and non-muslims alike)

 

[mafzal]

I think we all need to be careful what we say about other religions, and what sources we use. I understand that those weren't your words, Ranjit, but the article you posted was flat-out completely WRONG and disgustingly twisted. Yet anyone could read your post and go off thinking for who knows how long, telling who knows how many people, that Muslims basically torture animals and that halal meat is cruel.

I would really appreciate if you remove that section of your post or add a big note to it.

Thanks