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REIGN OF BHANGRA 2017 JUDGING REVIEW

Harmeet

Active Member
Messages
127
On behalf of ABC, I have been a dancer for over 11 years since 2006. I have seen a lot of flawed judging decisions in my day, whether it involved my team or not. We all should collectively voice this in a professional way so that other teams in the Bhangra circuit will never experience what we experienced at this competition. The state of the Bhangra scene has diminished in the last 4-5 years, with a big part of it having to do with flawed judging, due to unqualified judges.

Three judges by the name of Mariam Afzal, Gurprit Pasricha, and Gary Khera judged Reign of Bhangra this past weekend. As the meeting started, I apologized to them with the uttermost sincerity, because one of my team members made a remark to them after the results. After that, they were not professional with me at all when I sat down with them during our judges meeting. They justified why they gave my team third, instead of focusing on giving me constructive criticism of what to work on. Gary Khera was beyond bias, and would talk over other judges when I was trying to speak to them. There is also a strong affiliation between Gary and Hardeep (coach of Royal Queens who got 1st place) as they go back to being good friends. This was absolutely unacceptable. After Gary stopped talking finally, I again asked for feedback. Mariam did point out some things that were beneficial for my team. For that, I thank her. Gurprit pointed out a few "breaks" my team took which penalized us, but also did not take into account how long each team danced for. He offered more praise than his opinionated feedback. The system of choosing judges is far from where it needs to be, and the hard work of committees to throw successful competitions goes out the window when something like this happens.

This was the first official "BTF approved" judging competition and was a complete debacle. All three judges were on a different page during the judges meeting. Every team here can agree that these three judges are not qualified to judge Bhangra competitions. Whether a judge has danced in the Bhangra circuit for 10 years or 5, it comes down to your knowledge, ability to be unbias when you make decisions, as well as your communication skills. If you are a Bhangra committee looking to throw a competition, you should NOT choose from three of these judges. I can further go into detail about each judges credentials if they would like me to. This message should get across to the whole Bhangra community. Together, we can make them never be allowed to judge a competition again.

Once again, this is not just one team speaking up, it is multiple. This is when you know there is a problem. If the Bhangra community realizes this, then something needs to be done for the sake of our younger dancers. This was my last competition and it was beyond bitter sweet, but the reason I am posting this is not for any reassurance or pity. This is for the bhangra scene that is falling off and the kids that grow up watching and experiencing this.

Regards, Harmeet Dhaliwal

Placings:
1st: Royal Bhangra Academy Girls
2nd: ShanE Punjab Arts Club
3rd: Tie (ABC/SFBC)


Below this will be other comments from a Facebook thread from teams who placed and did not place at this competition.

(Harkiran - Panj) Bhaji I agree with your post!! All these kids who were 16 are all now grown up at 24/25yrs old. They need to stand up.

We have to fix our local circuit ourselves, no outsider or BTF will do it.

It's takes your faith away when your team puts in countless hours of hard work.

I always say " don't give it to us if we don't deserve it". There is no worse feeling than getting something you don't deserve and no worse feeling than not getting what you know you deserve.


(ShanEPunjab) Bilkul kiran its true . We deserved 2nd that was ok for us but that Royal girls omg not even stand at last spot got 1st .It was not fair for other teams Norcal,ABC even Vancity were much much better than them.

(Harkiran-Panj) I have not seen any videos, and I was not there so I cannot point out certain teams. But I do say that this is happening way too often. Right when I think our local circuit is getting better it falls. Idols couldn't have a competition due to fights, judges were being yelled and sworn at in parking lots at Elite.

We as in the younger generation who are now grown adults 22-27 need to stand up and do something about it and not be scared of any ramifications.

(Vivesh- VanCity Bhangra) Totally agree with this post. Things need to change in the circuit and we have to work together to make this change. This competition was a complete push over, it took placings to a new extent. We all know who deserved to place and videos will speak for them selves-hopefully they are released. This is the first time that all 7 out of the 8 teams are on the same page about this situation and that really says something. This one shall not pass.

(Kabeer-Van City) It was shocking to see what happened last night. I personally will take a stand to make sure our youth isn't effected by actions of others.

(Jatinder- ShanEPunjab) Bro do u know someone (I do not want to take the name) said that one of judges said that he gave u guys 59 scores and he was questioned why u scored them so low ,the answer was that I don't like them.

(Rajan- VanCity Bhangra) If nobody speaks out about this bs now, this is going to develop into a trend. I'm not okay with sitting idle while youngsters are preparing for months for a competition, only to go and become disheartened and demotivated by politics, and inadequate judging. They were biased, and upon receiving very vague and unspecific feedback they told us that we lost due to some things that were common amongst all the performances of the night. We were told (and I quote) "VanCity is usually better than this", which of course is perfectly reasonable given that no two performances are ever the same. However each judge should look at a routine with a blank slate and impartiality, rather than through a filter of pre-determined expectations and what not.


These are a few of many posts that are continuing to pile up. We as teams are taking a stand, and something has to be done for the sake of this bhangra scene and our youth growing up in it.

*In no way, shape, or form does this reflect Reign of Bhangra's committee. Gurinder (organizer) did an amazing job throwing this show and it turned out to be very successful for a first year competition, along with being almost completely sold out.*
 
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ReignofBhangra

New Member
Messages
22
On Behalf of the Reign of Bhangra committee, I would like to sincerely apologize about the concerns and issues that are arising from the placings and the judges panel. As mentioned by Harmeet, 7 of the 8 teams as well as audience have raised great concern about the outcome of the competition. As a committee, we will definitely look into the judges score sheets, comments, and put together a review panel to go over the documents and videos.

We want to make sure the competing teams are provided with appropriate feedback and justification to backup the placing and if the placings are incorrect, for the correct placing teams to be honored and given the respect they deserve and placings to be redone.

Reign of Bhangra wants this to be a continuing bhangra platform for the youth to stay connected with our virsa and culture and we will take any and all measures necessary to make sure that the competition is fair and can be justified when questioned about placings. Again I would like to apologize on behalf of the committee and assure the members of the bhangra circuit that actions will be taken immediately to correct any mistakes that may have been made. If anyone has any questions or feedback for us, please email us at apventertainment@gmail.com.

Thank you,

Gurinder Athwal, President of APV Entertainment & Reign of Bhangra
 

Hardeepsinghsahota

New Member
Messages
8
From Baldev Singh Mann (Bhangra Judge) Baldev Singh Mann Hardeep Singh Sahota har pai rahe aa tuhadi team de.Hun b kuch bolo,duje ta sahi nu b galat kahi jande c.Hun b bolo ke galat hoya.je nahi ta safayi deo.Dujia ch nuks kadne saukhe aa,te apne ch b dekho.jad ke jis din tusi raula paya Abbotsford competition da ਦੇਸੀ ਇੰਟਰਟੇਨਮਿੰਟ ,te asi bilkul sahi c tusi b mane c jo bad ch meeting hoyi te sade nal Kulwinder Singh Bajwa and organizers nal.I will wait your reply here,if you right,give answer,if you dont reply mean you accepting you guys are wrong.Thank you

Replied
Hardeep Singh Sahota Hello Everyone, & Baldev Singh Mann Bhaji My name is Hardeep and the coach of Royal. I wanted to clear few things here. 6 months ago I asked all the Bhangra club owners to get together for the better future of Bhangra Competitions. All of you have played soft Politics no one came forward. Even though I made whatapp group with all of them no one responded. I would love to be part of this for the better future of Bhangra competitions. If you guys have concern about Reign Of Bhangra 2017 Bhangra Competition please talk to the judges I have no problem with that and that's what I did after elite 2016. I and Raj Rai went all the way to see you guys. where Baldev Singh Mann bhaji you placed us 3rd and Kulwinder Singh Bajwa placed us 2nd But there was no placing from C.J. Saini Bhaji.Also C.J. Saini Bhaji called my friend Raj Rai and said it to him he can kill me anytime if i say anything against his judgment. Even Baldev Singh Mann bhaji you never responded the media calls also you have said you can take them to court if they say anything against you. I have so many examples of you judging where you did not done your job properly after you guys put all the errors on organizers or other judges. Elite 2015 where Peter Sodhi Associated shane and there was one more judge associated with shane and they got first . Elite Giddha Competition 2015- 2 lady judges associated with shane where shane got 1st - 2nd- 3rd. Idols 2014 - 7 dancer danced from shane little stars and placed first where the rule is have to be 8 dancers. Idols 2015 Panj Harkiran Etchhkayy team danced under time limit Baldev Singh Mann bhaji you guys placed them 2nd. Even though you guys made a mess in junior category at idols 2015 where other Bhangra school members were mad at you guys and the same people were mad at you at Elite 2015. The funny part was none of the judges from Idols 2015 responded to my phone calls properly after. Raj Sangha tried his best to make the conversation go with judges but still no luck. That was the biggest reason Idols didn't took place in 2016. I'm happy to see that all of us trying to get together for the better future of bhangra competitions. If anyone have any concern please let me know. Thank you Hardeep singh Sahota
Like · Reply · 7 mins
 
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Lally

Active Member
Messages
332
Lol, BC drama... here we go. All I got from this was that everyones got dirt on each other. How about we all just stop going out of our way to have the placings go in your favour by doing sneaky shit. Practice and DESERVE to win it, otherwise its not really bragging rights. This is exactly why we up north teams stopped competing around 2012, we take this shit way too competitively. The teams that work hard and honest, get f**ked over. We all know how much work goes into each and every competition, seeing this continue at every competition, it's disgusting. I say we as a circuit ban anyone involved with rigging any competitions. Whether it's a judge, coach, captain, competition organizer.. anyone involved in the rigging process.
 
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BhangraSUCKS

Active Member
Messages
131
Why dont we just let the winners be decided by popular vote? Instead of having sneaky, haram ja da, sharam ni oundi judges, lets use the polling system on btf to decide comps. Get people and young kids more engaged, and we can actively discuss what we liked and didnt like of a teams routine. As we all seen in this election, the popular vote is what matters, so let the people decide.

Or tell the audience at the comps to go to btf and vote like they do in american idol, whoever has most votes as team wins. Can make it interesting like best male dancer, female dancer, potato dancer, etc. We have a bunch of smart people who know how to code, lets make it happen.
 
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hardeep_singh

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,464
post videos and i will gladly join in on shitting on UBJ, there is no such thing as "btf approved judges" i sure as hell never voted for any judges. all this professional judging stuff is fukarpuna. post whatever videos you have and let the community decide whether your claims are legitimate, there is no point in posting quotes by anyone because they may be as biased as the judge(s) you're criticizing. plenty of bias in the bhangra circuit, always has been, always will be, salay giddar har pasay.
 

Kaur

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,294
I have signed up to be a part of this judges union. I am just shocked that we have easily 80-90ppl disagreeing with the placings.

Usually it just one team who's not happy with their placing but literally every single team that stepped on that stage plus the audience did not agree. Harjot Gtv on his IG stated he didn't agree either

So my question would be what did the 3 judges see which 7/8 teams plus the audience didn't see? 80/90 ppl not agreeing with 3 judges is no joke.

My team didn't even dance. But as someone who's a part of this union, it would be good to k ow.
 
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Messages
4
Hi folks!

The UBJ would like to step in and clarify a few things. We've also attached our handout that explains the details of our mission and how our projects work.

1) Opinions on judges and judging process.
First of all, we're very sorry to hear that you are upset with the judging at Reign. The good thing is that Reign is a UBJ Certified Competition, meaning that you have the opportunity to express your thoughts on a feedback form (which has been sent to all team captains, organizers, and judges). Just like teams, competition organizers and judges want constructive feedback as well.

The feedback form asks objective questions about professionalism and communication and has space for additional comments. Please note that low ratings require a valid explanation. We will give the judges and organizers feedback about how to improve in the future and post their ratings publicly on our database.​

2) "BTF approved judges"
UBJ is an independent group that does not include an approval process or any qualifications. All are welcome to register with us. We do not ever want to dictate who is a judge or a who a competition picks as a judge. All registering means is that they've filled out a form that asks questions to get to know the judge, and they will be listed in our public database. Please see the handout to see what all registering with the UBJ entails.
Summary: We do not "approve" judges. We list them.​

3) Bias and affiliation.
It is up to the competition to choose their judges. If any team has issues with their selections, we recommend discussing it with the competition in advance so that there aren't any problems after the competition. After speaking with a competition, if you are still not content with a judge selection because of concerns over bias or affiliation, please reach out to the UBJ and we can look in to the problem. However, this needs to be done well before a competition for anything to happen.
Our primary focus is improving transparency, accountability, and general professionalism. We also want give judges, competitions, and teams resources to improve so that the whole circuit can improve. We are not here to dictate or approve anything.

If you have additional questions or concerns, check out the attached handout and feel free to email us at bhangrajudging@gmail.com.

Thanks!
Union of Bhangra Judges
 

Attachments

Gurvir

Member
Messages
704
Well, I guess its time for my BTF hiatus to end. :)

As Harmeet stated earlier, there's been a lot of debatable or flawed judging decisions in the past, whether or not it included us. People will always have differences in opinion after comps, a lot of times the placings could have been different based on a small few factors, which is fine because its close enough to debate. So in those cases you just have to accept that there were certain elements the judges liked a little better. Now when its behind the scenes politics and drama as Lally stated, thats when it becomes an issue, and quite frankly why a lot of the big name teams left the scene. What happened this weekend judging wise, was easily the worst I have seen in my decade of doing bhangra.

I won't go into this too much in terms of a personal angle because its really more about the bigger picture and future of bhangra. Now, I understand its a different comp than Our Virsa last month and there's going to be a slightly different rubric and whatnot, but here's where it gets interesting. A judge actually stated in the judges meeting "why do you even think you had a chance at a higher placing than what you got?" Very unprofessional of a judge to come directly at our team like that. As for the answer to that, we fully believe we had a shot at 1st because we took a set that won a unanimous 1st place last month (from 5 experienced judges), improved and polished it, and executed it better this time as well. With that, we tie (something that should never happen in placings, there's a deliberation period for a reason) for 3rd?

That's what I'll leave it at as far as what happened directly with us, but this is more for the youth that are coming up. I saw the looks on the faces of our younger dancers after the results. All those months of hard work, down the drain essentially. Now project this on a bigger scale, think of all these kids that are in academies these days who are learning and hope to compete some day. What kind of message does this send to them? Should we tell our students "Work hard, give it your all, and hope the judges are knowledgeable?"

We gotta speak up collectively to ensure that there's a better future for the bhangra circuit. This is one of the biggest contributing factors to the decline of the circuit and the reason why a lot of the big-names had left the circuit. For a lot of us, our time as dancers is over but the aim of all this is to ensure the youth don't fall victim to this type of favoritism or behind the scenes drama.

Regards,

Gurvir

P.S Major props to Gurinder and the APV Ent. team on a great comp, but also for taking action on the concerns voiced by almost every team.
 

Imtaj Grewal

New Member
Messages
1
Imtaj( shanepunjab) i agree with harmeet(abc) jatinder(shane) for the poor decisions of the judges. The comments that they gave to why teams lost points were not agree able their comments were one of the dancers arms was faster than others but he was still in beat. And as jatinder(shane) was saying that one of the judges did not like us was true he has not liked any team from shane. And as harmeet(abc) was saying one of the judges was very rude when he was talking or his fellow judges or a team that questions or concerns for the judges. Even though shane got second we are happily fine with second but 7 out of 8 teams thought that the team that got first place didnt deserve because there were teams that were better such as Vancity, ABC, NorCal. As harmeet( abc) was saying the only way that we can stop what happened at reign of bhangra is that the people who have started the bhangra competition look into the judges profiles such as which competitions they have judged and what the placings were and if they have more concerns they can ask the teams that got placed and the teams that werent placed about how they felt and they can even ask the people who have done competitions and how they felt about the judges and placings. Thank you, Imtaj
 

Ricky916

Member
Messages
302
Honestly Competitions should learn from "Bhangra in the 6ix" & the way that Prabh Saini went about holding his judges accountable for their opinion on the performances and choices for placings. I judged there this past October and was told that every team had as much time as they wanted after the show to question and get valuable CONSTRUCTIVE feedback from judges. I emphasize constructive because at the end of the day a team that placed or didn't place always has room to improve and get better for the future. At BIT6, if a team left the meeting unsatisfied they were told to sit back down in the judges room and ask the judges whatever else they wanted until they felt "SATISFIED" with judges. I feel that a team being satisfied with judges feedback is something we are lacking in the circuit, I've heard numerous remarks about judges not giving valuable feedback and that to me as a judge and a coach is something that I would like to see change moving forward.
 

JackPaaji

New Member
Messages
6
Waheguru. 20re, eating cow is against sikhism so why you starting the beef? You people acting jiddan it was "I quit" match at WrestleMania. I thought placings were fair. AJ kaal de youth don't need participation trophy everytime. This is life. You lose. There is corruption jiddan Badal organized the competition but it's OK 20re. Drink some tanda paani and continue on with life.
 

BhangraSUCKS

Active Member
Messages
131
First off, tanda paani is bad for constipation, needs to be lukewarm.

And further just because there is corruption in life doesnt mean we have to abide by it. If we want to change it we can change, but to stand idly and let it happen is cowardly. Your just furthering the divide, as opposed to bridging the gap.

I stand by my recommendation to make voting online through btf or with audience at competition. Make an app or something connected to btf.
 

Jdosanjh

[AVA Girls]
Messages
152
First off, tanda paani is bad for constipation, needs to be lukewarm.

And further just because there is corruption in life doesnt mean we have to abide by it. If we want to change it we can change, but to stand idly and let it happen is cowardly. Your just furthering the divide, as opposed to bridging the gap.

I stand by my recommendation to make voting online through btf or with audience at competition. Make an app or something connected to btf.
Judging isn't for everyone.
Only select dancers/ coaches can be a "good" judge. Regardless of how much experience they may have.
So online/ audience voting is out of the question, as it would be more of a popularity contest.

I was in the audience at this competition and I had friends on almost every team. And the placings announced were nothing close to what I had anticipated. I feel so bad for the teams. Every single one that competed. It shouldn't have come to this. Please don't get discouraged.

I really want Reign of Bhangra to do a re-evaluation. I dont blame the competition at all. The judging system seemed so promising. Mistakes do happen. But when it comes to the blood, sweat, and tears that were put into this by all the team. Something needs to be done. Otherwise this is going to have a big effect on the future of our bhangra circuit.
 

TegHans

Well-Known Member
BTF Mixing Mod
Messages
112
Summary: We do not "approve" judges. We list them.
I am not 100% on board with UBJ, but I'll leave this suggestion here. You may not approve judges, which is fine, but you DO approve competitions. Correct me if I'm wrong but when a judge becomes a part of UBJ they list out their prior experience (former dancing/coaching experience). I suggest working with competitions before they release their judges by cross checking their judges' prior experience and former affiliations with the teams at the competition, and ensure there are no conflicts of interest. After all, I'd assume an organization comprised of circuit vets would be able to spot conflicts of interest far better than comp committees would (a lot of the time committees don't necessarily have experienced dancers on it). Proactively tackling these issues before they cause big problems such as this can be done efficiently by this Union, and given the resources and experience on your board, I'm sure future approved comps will be more successful.

-Teg
 

Gsimz

Ne Asi Gabroo Desh Punjab De ;)
Messages
491
Harmeet, I'm glad you posted this. In the past I've felt the same way during certain competitions and I have felt hesitant to post out of respect.
I won't comment on the placings until I see videos, but if 7 out of 8 weren't on the same page then clearly something went wrong
 

BhangraSUCKS

Active Member
Messages
131
Judging isn't for everyone.
Only select dancers/ coaches can be a "good" judge. Regardless of how much experience they may have.
So online/ audience voting is out of the question, as it would be more of a popularity contest.
Ya okay, even though this competition proved otherwise and makes your argument rather falacious and frivolous. We have seen time and again random teams getting 1st place even though we all know they shouldnt have, and the competition's only rationale is that the judges were "experienced", when its nothing more than judges who are affiliated to friends now on such teams winning the comp.

You say judging should be for a select few. I disagree. Judging should be for everyone. The acts of these three judges highlights whats wrong with the scene over the past 4 years, and its time to fundamentally change the way comps are judged.
 

Lally

Active Member
Messages
332
Ya okay, even though this competition proved otherwise and makes your argument rather falacious and frivolous. We have seen time and again random teams getting 1st place even though we all know they shouldnt have, and the competition's only rationale is that the judges were "experienced", when its nothing more than judges who are affiliated to friends now on such teams winning the comp.

You say judging should be for a select few. I disagree. Judging should be for everyone. The acts of these three judges highlights whats wrong with the scene over the past 4 years, and its time to fundamentally change the way comps are judged.
So you want random people in the audience that have no knowledge of Bhangra to judge competitions? I can't seem to wrap my head around that idea.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel completely, we just need to tweak our ways. Applying to judge at a competition shouldn't just be filling out a form, competition accepts it and then you go ahead and host a bhangra competition. Competition committees need to have an interview process where they put the applicants knowledge of Bhangra to test. In order for that to happen the committee would need to know Bhangra themselves. And thats exactly what the issue is, competitions are being hosted and judged by people that just have enough money or sponsors to host a competition. But they have no knowledge or experience in Bhangra.
 

BhangraSUCKS

Active Member
Messages
131
Well, I think of it this way. If teams are trying to provide entertainment, then who are the best people to judge if a team entertained them? The audience.

Theres nothing prohibiting one metric for evaluating a teams placing. You can have the popular vote with the audience, and a btf vote. We have countless people here on btf who are passionate and just as experienced and should have their opinions heard as well. Why not make the polling votes on btf actually count for something?
 
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