should girls be allowed to do live.?

Ajay.H

New Member
Messages
142
Harman said:
Man or woman, a person should be able to dance bhangra regardless. Judges claiming bhangra should be strictly for men are only oppressing the dance. A woman dancing pure, traditional bhangra is a form of beauty in itself. People claiming some moves arent so aesthetically pleasing are following rules not set by bhangra. But rather they are conforming to what society believes what women look good doing. To all the females out there dancing bhangra, whether it may be live or music, keep doing what your doing.
It's called Benevolent Sexism and this is how it manifests within that culture. For any guy that has ever felt like it was their job to hold the door for a girl or pay for a date or whatever, you know what this is. In the end, it still reinstates gender roles in our society and technically, on a level, demeans women but a strong majority of us still do it, right?

I think it would be good for all of us to take a step back and not bash on the judges for having their deep-rooted opinions, but to make it a bigger deal for the competitions to choose judges that are appropriate for this circuit.
 

Ashveer

New Member
Messages
492
Ajay.H said:
Harman said:
Man or woman, a person should be able to dance bhangra regardless. Judges claiming bhangra should be strictly for men are only oppressing the dance. A woman dancing pure, traditional bhangra is a form of beauty in itself. People claiming some moves arent so aesthetically pleasing are following rules not set by bhangra. But rather they are conforming to what society believes what women look good doing. To all the females out there dancing bhangra, whether it may be live or music, keep doing what your doing.
It's called Benevolent Sexism and this is how it manifests within that culture. For any guy that has ever felt like it was their job to hold the door for a girl or pay for a date or whatever, you know what this is. In the end, it still reinstates gender roles in our society and technically, on a level, demeans women but a strong majority of us still do it, right?

I think it would be good for all of us to take a step back and not bash on the judges for having their deep-rooted opinions, but to make it a bigger deal for the competitions to choose judges that are appropriate for this circuit.
Agree here. I think its hard for us in the diaspora to accept our grand old virsa as institutionalizing women in a subordinate position to men. I don't buy the "aesthetic" argument because its rooted in a system in which women are better off not seen and not heard. I don't want to get into a shouting match about it, but women have very recently become more visible in public spaces, and we still throw baby fetuses in wells on the daily. Women were barred from bhangra in this same milieu. Making moral value judgements is difficult, which is why I think Ajay is right in that committees should just choose the right judges. I've always been in favor of naming the judges that pull the brash sexism, but it seems that nobody is willing to name names. Why so?
 

KDave

New Member
Messages
37
Ashveer said:
Ajay.H said:
Harman said:
Man or woman, a person should be able to dance bhangra regardless. Judges claiming bhangra should be strictly for men are only oppressing the dance. A woman dancing pure, traditional bhangra is a form of beauty in itself. People claiming some moves arent so aesthetically pleasing are following rules not set by bhangra. But rather they are conforming to what society believes what women look good doing. To all the females out there dancing bhangra, whether it may be live or music, keep doing what your doing.
It's called Benevolent Sexism and this is how it manifests within that culture. For any guy that has ever felt like it was their job to hold the door for a girl or pay for a date or whatever, you know what this is. In the end, it still reinstates gender roles in our society and technically, on a level, demeans women but a strong majority of us still do it, right?

I think it would be good for all of us to take a step back and not bash on the judges for having their deep-rooted opinions, but to make it a bigger deal for the competitions to choose judges that are appropriate for this circuit.
Agree here. I think its hard for us in the diaspora to accept our grand old virsa as institutionalizing women in a subordinate position to men. I don't buy the "aesthetic" argument because its rooted in a system in which women are better off not seen and not heard. I don't want to get into a shouting match about it, but women have very recently become more visible in public spaces, and we still throw baby fetuses in wells on the daily. Women were barred from bhangra in this same milieu. Making moral value judgements is difficult, which is why I think Ajay is right in that committees should just choose the right judges. I've always been in favor of naming the judges that pull the brash sexism, but it seems that nobody is willing to name names. Why so?
I also agree that committee members should choose judges who are not sexists, however, alot of the judges out here, in CA are older. I believe we should choose judges of our own age who know just as much or even more about bhangra and who understand our generation of the bhangra circuit. That is just something that needs to be brought out more in general.

The RPVD comp in canada had judges who were older, however, there were other side judges ( younger and who previously were on teams) who over looked the score sheets and counted everything to make sure everything the main judges wrote was accurate. That could be a step that California comps can do.

I think that judges do play a huge role in comps obviously, however, i dont think people really look into whose judging or the names or the judges background in detail. I may be wrong but if we did then maybe the judges that are really unfair with proof would not be judging anymore or would not be asked to judge. Im not sure how it works with committee members choosing judges for comps... but there are good/ fair and not bias judges... and only they should be chosen. Maybe committee members should show who the judges will be for their comp publicly so all the teams know in advance?
 

ban3rg

Active Member
Messages
1,492
Harman said:
Man or woman, a person should be able to dance bhangra regardless. Judges claiming bhangra should be strictly for men are only oppressing the dance. A woman dancing pure, traditional bhangra is a form of beauty in itself. People claiming some moves arent so aesthetically pleasing are following rules not set by bhangra. But rather they are conforming to what society believes what women look good doing. To all the females out there dancing bhangra, whether it may be live or music, keep doing what your doing.
Well said. Re-sharing this.
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
Harman said:
Man or woman, a person should be able to dance bhangra regardless. Judges claiming bhangra should be strictly for men are only oppressing the dance. A woman dancing pure, traditional bhangra is a form of beauty in itself. People claiming some moves arent so aesthetically pleasing are following rules not set by bhangra. But rather they are conforming to what society believes what women look good doing. To all the females out there dancing bhangra, whether it may be live or music, keep doing what your doing.
+500

you couldn't have said it better

amen! (or ameen!)
 

Ajay.H

New Member
Messages
142
Harman said:
Man or woman, a person should be able to dance bhangra regardless. Judges claiming bhangra should be strictly for men are only oppressing the dance. A woman dancing pure, traditional bhangra is a form of beauty in itself. People claiming some moves arent so aesthetically pleasing are following rules not set by bhangra. But rather they are conforming to what society believes what women look good doing. To all the females out there dancing bhangra, whether it may be live or music, keep doing what your doing.
Sorry for re-quoting this but it's for a different point. I think it's very important for us to realize that everything we view is almost entirely relative to the culture in which we have grown up and the experiences we have had. What is "beauty" to us may not be "beauty" to someone else and there is nothing wrong with that. Some cultures/views may see a completely naked man or woman as one of the most beautiful things in the world while other cultures/views shy away from nudity like its the worst sin. Extreme example, but you get the point and it does apply. This is why I stress, once again, to not point at the judges as "wrong" but to rather select judges that fit our cultures/the circuits current views towards bhangra. Also, go back and read Swi's post if you haven't.

To the women dancing live bhangra, it is a shame that you sometimes have to be judged by people who do not believe in what the majority of our North American bhangra circuit believes in. A change in this pattern, where it is a problem, could be something that shows a competition truly cares about their dancers. I understand that there may be a positive correlation between age, bhangra competency, and therefore maybe sexism as well, but what's the point in having judges if they are from the start so clearly biased against something that the majority of the dancers believe in?
 

Saab

Today is a gift
Messages
991
The topic of this thread should be changes from "Should girls be allowed to do live.?" to something along the lines of "The pitfalls of girls doing live bhangra".

I will say one thing about judges. I don't understand why people value institutional cultural and sexist bias in judging over team association/team bias. Can someone explain that to me? Competitions have a large pool of judges they can choose from and they don't due to relative recentness of dancing and the want for judges from elite teams.

Why? I don't understand this when the alternative are intractable judges. Newer judges usually are someway attached to this community and at least the bhangra community at large. The biggest tool for newer judge accountability is this forum, and the fact there can be almost 100% transparency on judges and competitions with insightful posts here. Why we don't take that into consideration is beyond me. There is already an unspoken partnership between competitions and this website when it comes to details about the competition. Why can't we take it a step further?


I am also a fan of either disqualifying judges who's opinions would dock teams points without them performing(girls and dancing is the trending topic) or have the competition better express what they want in teams. Dancing is great and its fun, but it's also an investment that, although I can't empathize in the traditional sense, sucks when things like slap you in the face.
 

Basim

♥ BTF ♥
Staff member
Messages
1,456
The UBC Girlz, along with some girls on other co-ed squads back in the day, fought similar battles with competitions/judges/old mentality folks/the Punjabonline (POL) community/etc. just for females to be represented as equals on the Bhangra stage as their male counterparts.

Ladies, please continue the fight for equal respresenation with dissemination! Just don't inhibit radical feminism & be sure to remember us nice guys when you get all so popular ;)

~ Basim :)

P.S. - I agree with Saab's post about lack of judges - I seem to see relatively the same judges "recycled" over & over again by competitions. The competitions need to reach out to other people and it shouldn't matter if you're aware with what's going on the bhangra circuit (I could consider that a PLUS actually) or have watched past videos of teams. Let's get over this saying that judges might have some sort of huge "bias" because they are active on BTF and/or have danced in the bhangra circuit recently.
 
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