Sikh girl wins bangle law battle

[Summy]

Yeah Jeeti, no your rarely offensive. I like your tone, and you are actually sincere in your posts. I hate dudes like VIck because they say stupid idiotic things like Jenny Craig. So, when I read your posts, they are actually quite refreshing. dont worry brother, if you continue your insight, you wont offend me ever.

I understand what your saying. In sikhism, actually Guru Gobind Singh Jee talked about this. They are called Sehajdhari. They are kind of like slow adapters to sikhism. They haven't taken amrit, but are followers of the Khalsa. But Guru Jee made sure of one thing. He said these people must have taken a vow with Waheguru that they will one day take Amrit. I consider someone like Harman a sehajdhari who said he will one day take amrit, but he is not ready yet. Now, Guru Jee himself said they shouldnt adhere to the 5 kakar's because its distinct to amrtidharis, but some people do exactly what you said, wear one or two of the k;s to show their commitment to one day taking amrit. But them wearing it is much different than what we are talking about, how the kara has lost some meaning.

I COMPLETELY understand your comment of basically being the kara is better than nothing especially with the world and sikhs especially being so few and basically messed up. I agree, but Guru Jee told us about this....

This is important... Guru Jee said, in the age of the kalyug (the last of 4 yug's-- basically time era's, where the first yug people believe in religion but nonames, to KALYUG- the last yug, where religion is sacrificed, people forget the meaning, the yug of armageddon) that sikhi will consist of all sehajdharis. Those refusing to give themselves fully to waheguru. And the day that there is no amritdhari left on the earth, is the last day of this physical world.... This is consistent with ALL dharmic religions and their events of the "last day"... Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, and hindus all believe that the last day there will be nobody of dharmic dissent except one, and testaments religions like Islam, Chistanity, Judaism say that armageddon will happen when all will be their religion except for one... they are both consistent with each other...I can go indepth if anyone is interested..


But the way I see it, and many others see it... just because the numbers are decreasing and sikhi is being diluted, it doesnt mean we should comprimise our values. If guru jee said the k's are meant to be taken together, then i dont think for the sake of our times, we should comprimise these values. Because amrit meant so much, even there is only a handful of people following the khalsa correctly, then even so, comprising the values of our religion to adjust to the times is something we as humans dont have a right to do...

I am a "amrtidhari" but often question myself because I havent reached the spirtual readiness that is explained. I am often questioned if I keep kesh because, although my beard is completely full, its not long, by I guess gods grace, im not that hairy... I hear it all the time from people who dont believe me how important it is, so believe me I hate qhen people question religious affiliation but its our dharam you cant change it right?

Just my opinion though... I understand where you are coming from

 

[Jeeti]

But the way I see it, and many others see it... just because the numbers are decreasing and sikhi is being diluted, it doesnt mean we should comprimise our values. If guru jee said the k's are meant to be taken together, then i dont think for the sake of our times, we should comprimise these values. Because amrit meant so much, even there is only a handful of people following the khalsa correctly, then even so, comprising the values of our religion to adjust to the times is something we as humans dont have a right to do...

I am a "amrtidhari" but often question myself because I havent reached the spirtual readiness that is explained. I am often questioned if I keep kesh because, although my beard is completely full, its not long, by I guess gods grace, im not that hairy... I hear it all the time from people who dont believe me how important it is, so believe me I hate when people question religious affiliation but its our dharam you cant change it right?

Just my opinion though... I understand where you are coming from

We should never compromise the values of our religion to adjust to the time....this much is true but at the same time...I will not turn a blind eye to someone that is actually wearing their kara because of a significance to them...because as we all know...Faith resides within...and so it is the classic problem with religion...one can't really judge someone else's faith solely based on the fact that they have taken Amrit...although it is a huge leap...we all know that faith is something that is to be dealt with introspectively...although a Kara may be controversial those wearing it with pure intentions' faith should not be looked necessarily "down" upon...as I said earlier it is better than nothing...I can understand why those with complete dedication to their faith would be somewhat offended...I still would expect them to be a bit understanding that faith is from within and any kind of display of Sikh values with good faith is good for the religion and its ultimate continuance.

 

[Meistro]

We should never compromise the values of our religion to adjust to the time....this much is true but at the same time...I will not turn a blind eye to someone that is actually wearing their kara because of a significance to them...because as we all know...Faith resides within...and so it is the classic problem with religion...one can't really judge someone else's faith solely based on the fact that they have taken Amrit...although it is a huge leap...we all know that faith is something that is to be dealt with introspectively...although a Kara may be controversial those wearing it with pure intentions' faith should not be looked necessarily "down" upon...as I said earlier it is better than nothing...I can understand why those with complete dedication to their faith would be somewhat offended...I still would expect them to be a bit understanding that faith is from within and any kind of display of Sikh values with good faith is good for the religion and its ultimate continuance.

I respect Summy's opinion and completely understand where he's coming from. However, I agree with Jeeti's last two posts. I also believe shardha (faith) comes from within, no matter the appearance of an individual. I am nobody to question one's faith, but from personal experiences and from what I've heard in the sikh community, many people "disguise" themselves to seem religiously righteous on the surface, but the deeds they practice are the opposite. This is much more disrespectful than someone with the right intentions wearing a religious symbol such as the kara. Since the birth of khalsa and way before that, it was important to distinguish yourself as a sikh because there was much at stake. Sikh bahadurs died for our religion. They were not going to renounce their religion or their beliefs to convert to another faith. In our time, we do not have that issue. We do not live everyday defending our religion because another is forcing theirs upon us. Although I respect amritdhari sikhs who choose to follow the 5 k's and the lifestyle they choose, I believe it is also important that the individual practices good deeds, does seva in some way for their community, and remembers God on a daily basis. These are just my thoughts, I hope I have not offended anyone.

 

[Sher]

Arjun, I appreciate your honesty and your explanation. IN MY OPINION, I think if you knew the meaning of the Kara and what it represents, then you would respect it enough not to wear it, if you are not trying to take amrit.

Your understanding of the Kara is slightly skewed, as the meaning for the kara is kinda of what you mentioned, but your statement is a bit incomplete. The Kara is meant to recognize remind a Sikh (one who has taken amrit) that whatever he or she does with their hands, should remain pure, and to follow the advice of the Guru's. So if you truly admire the values of the kara and what it represents, it represents the entireity of sikhism. It represents the obligation, the vaadah, the promise to waheguru that you will live your life best according to Guru's Jee's words.

So if you block out the world, the social aspect of this argument, and everything included, and just zone in on your iron Kara, and its deep significance, if your not following the rules of the Khalsa, or at least attempting to, and if you are indeed agnostic, then it is somewhat of a disrespectful action. I am not saying at all that you are doing this purposely, infact I appreciate that you admit your wearing it for the reasons that you are...


THink about it this way: What if you saw someone walking around with JUST a kirpan. It was a kirpan meant for sikhs, and that person did not believe in sikhi's path to amrit, or did not believe that Guru Gobind Singh Jee meant the kirpan to be worn as part of the 5k's... would you not be just a tad offended? If the person said, well he though it was "cool" and showed his like for the culture... still not just a tad offensive?


I mean if you look at it wholistically, people are going to continue to wear it. But if you read the history of Guru Gobind Singh Jee, what amrit meant to him, what the 5 kakar's meant to him, and you just stare at your Kara for a while, and realize that waheguru is watching you, then I would think you would feel some sort of hesitant nature about putting it on.


Hope you didnt find the post disrespectful

I don't see anything wrong with Arjun wearing a kara. Summy, by your thinking (it's wrong for non Sikhs to wear Kara or Kirpan) wouldn't you also say it is wrong for a non-Sikh to keep their kesh or wear kacha? Those are 2 of our other Ks.

I don't have a problem with Arjun wearing a kara because he isn't wearing it just to say "look i'm a Sikh." He's wearing it to make himself a better person through what the kara represents for him. I don't think anyone should have a problem with someone trying to better himself.

 

[Summy]

I respect your opinions guys, and believe me, I've heard them before. I think its just that when you say the word Kara, or talk about a Kara, I think about it in the religious Sikhi sense. Of its meaning, its respect, its value etc... pertaining to sikhi...

If there has been an evolution of what a Kara is, to what you guys have said today that it reminds you to be a good person etc... then who am I to say, dont wear it... It's just if you separate the Kara from its religious meaning and its social meaning, then hey, no problem. Its just, when people say I wear the Kara because I am SIKH, and have a drink or smoke in the same hand of the Kara, its a little troubling. If Guru Gobind Singh Jee said wear a kara to symbolize a, b and c... And they dont symbolize those things, tis problematic...

But if the Kara has evolved socially, and it means something else, then I guess it becomes like any other material object with a separate, but equally respectable meaning.

----

Faith does come from within, you guys are completly right. And doing seva for your community like meistro said is what separates you from being a pious individual from someone else. But if we get down to sikhism, the dharam, the way of life, then its different.


I understand your commetns and appreciate them immensely. As long as people udnerstand there are different views on the matter.

To Arjunarjun,

You said people wear it for what it represents. Like I said, religiously, it means your vaddah, your promise to waheguru that you will live your life according to our guru's words. Thats what the Kara means. And that every action with your hand, is by the words of the guru.

If somebody kept kesh or kirpan for reasons outside of sikhi, then it hold a significantly different meaning. So I am not sure what you mean by that.

 

[Sher]

If somebody kept kesh or kirpan for reasons outside of sikhi, then it hold a significantly different meaning. So I am not sure what you mean by that.

What I meant is pretty much exactly what you said. People can wear karas for reasons outside of Sikhi, which is why I don't abject to non-sikhs wearing them. A kara doesn't have to be reserved solely for Sikhi purposes, as kesh and kirpan dont either. I do agree with your other point about someone claiming to be Sikh and smoking and drinking with the same hand as the kara (or the other hand). However, I dont feel the issue is that they are wearing a kara, the issue is that they are drinking. If they claim to be Sikh they shouldn't be drinking or smoking anyways.