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siddyp

Tough times never last, but tough people do.
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1,270
MODS: May want to split the judging discussion into a separate thread.


hardeep_singh said:
teams should start putting together good sets if they want good criticism. no point in critiquing a set which has fundamental flaws, when there are so many references for teams to turn to. show progression and people will provide criticism to help you take it further. show regression and your set will just be another disappointment and you might as well change your name to bhangra empire.
The problem I see with this, is that when teams start, or have younger captains, they just don't know. How can one put together a good routine if they don't know what that actually entails?

The only way I believe I know what I know now, was from all the critiques on any performances I was a part of, and all the critiques that other performances received here on btf.

So to your point, I'd rather see teams post and ask for feedback/help rather them figure it out on their own. They'll get better faster.

And imo, Empire has gotten better at what they do over the years. Def not worse.
 

siddyp

Tough times never last, but tough people do.
Messages
1,270
campy614 said:
Regarding general "bhangra in a weird place"
History shows that art forms flourish when participants allow them to take life. By distinctly thinking of bhangra as a "traditional dance" instead of an actual art form, we've stunted it's growth. By refusing to think outside of the box, and judges/organizers refusing to reward teams for "going there", bhangra in the US has hit a plateau.

By comparison:
-Interest in artistic gymnastics grows mostly in part because difficulty grows - some elements done in current routines wouldn't have even been possible 10 years ago. It's also borrowed given back elements to other art forms (I'll take break dancing and ballet for 1000 please).
-Drawing/painting/music - all art forms that have expanded because of the different ideas of participants. Different paint/pencil strokes, different techniques, different sounds and moods - each one of them contributing to the growth of their respective arts. Millions of examples of art pieces borrowing from other art forms, or at least with it as an inspiration. It's quite beautiful!
-And for a while bhangra was doing the same. Sets became more difficult, we borrowed ideas from other art forms and even contributed back to them.

This isn't to say that we should disregard all of bhangra's elements when dancing bhangra. What I'm saying is to keep pushing the envelope. Every idea matters. Every voice counts - whether you're the captain of your team, last jori, or even a substitute. This is no longer a matter "not being able to place at a comp" - this is a matter of bhangra in the US becoming extinct.
I 100% agree with you. But there will always be those who think pushing the envelope in any way isn't cool and should be shunned/banned. Which is fine. To each their own.

And I agree with Karn. It won't go "extinct" But the general interest and awe will go away.
 

siddyp

Tough times never last, but tough people do.
Messages
1,270
KarnSingh said:
By far the most important thing that get's forgotten today is execution. The reason teams aren't as "elite" or great today as they were 6 years ago is straight up execution of Bhangra. By the way rubrics are set up nowadays, if a live team from Panjab were to compete at a NA comp, they would do horrible. I never saw bhangra to be about the complexity first, but the execution first. If a team cannot shrug their shoulders properly on jhummar, regardless of how complex or great the choreo is, they should not be placing. If a team isn't lifting legs till the end of the performance, they should not be placing, regardless of what "cool" shit they can do. The circuit is diluted with the mindset about doing cool amazing things, but it doesn't address the issue of poor execution. Putting on a smile and doing dhamaal on stage isn't Bhangra, dhamaal isn't something you do, it's something you embody and bring to life (munde bhangre ch paunde ne dhamaal ... not munde bhangra ch karde ne dhamaal). You can throw all the cool shit into a set, hard stuff to do as you want, but it's not bhangra. Teams 4-5 years (VCU, JJ, SGPD, NJ, NYPD) had fantastic execution (probably not perfect) first, and then cool stuff.

Putting all these parameters about cleanliness, complexity, etc is what's allowing bad bhangra performances to place and prevail over raw bhangra. Bhangra is not going to die or ever die out, but it will lose it's spirit, and what it's supposed to mean to be embodying josh and nakhra.
I don't believe teams 6 years ago were executing bhangra better than the teams today. It was just plain and simply different. Watch a SGPD routine from 07, then 09, then 2011. It's not "better" it's different. As time has passed, the execution and cleanliness of the dance has become more refined, graceful, and powerful.

To the live team comment, have you seen live rubrics here in the US or Canada? And then compared to the ones in Panjab? Either way, the North American scene has been more about music teams, which is probably what you're really talking about. Live bhangra and music bhangra are completely different ball games. Don't compare the two.

If you don't dance bhangra well, you won't place. We're talking about bhangra.
If you aren't clean, you won't place. This is a competitive dance.
To my eyes, this has held fairly true in NA and in India.

This is North America. If you can't entertain an audience that goes beyond those who understand bhangra, if you can't wow with choregraphical brilliance, no ones gonna come to watch YOU perform again and again except your family, the few hundred of us BTF folk, ad maybe your friends. That won't bode well for competitions staying around for years to come.
North America requires complexity and entertainment value to be a major part of bhangra for it to grow/maintain its popularity and last well into the future. See Campys comments above.
 

Sue Sylvester

kinnell
Messages
467
KarnSingh said:
By far the most important thing that get's forgotten today is execution. The reason teams aren't as "elite" or great today as they were 6 years ago is straight up execution of Bhangra. By the way rubrics are set up nowadays, if a live team from Panjab were to compete at a NA comp, they would do horrible. I never saw bhangra to be about the complexity first, but the execution first. If a team cannot shrug their shoulders properly on jhummar, regardless of how complex or great the choreo is, they should not be placing. If a team isn't lifting legs till the end of the performance, they should not be placing, regardless of what "cool" shit they can do. The circuit is diluted with the mindset about doing cool amazing things, but it doesn't address the issue of poor execution. Putting on a smile and doing dhamaal on stage isn't Bhangra, dhamaal isn't something you do, it's something you embody and bring to life (munde bhangre ch paunde ne dhamaal ... not munde bhangra ch karde ne dhamaal). You can throw all the cool shit into a set, hard stuff to do as you want, but it's not bhangra. Teams 4-5 years (VCU, JJ, SGPD, NJ, NYPD) had fantastic execution (probably not perfect) first, and then cool stuff. Putting all these parameters about cleanliness, complexity, etc is what's allowing bad bhangra performances to place and prevail over raw bhangra. Bhangra is not going to die or ever die out, but it will lose it's spirit, and what it's supposed to mean to be embodying josh and nakhra.


Karn, I agree with you that execution is of utmost important. But what I can't understand is why you continue to neglect the importance of cleanliness slash the importance of a team to dance as a team. Lifting legs, finishing moves, extending arms, being precise with execution, dancing with modhe, having grace, dancing with josh, having great form, getting low on jugni and performing on stage with presence and confidence is what I enjoy when watching teams perform, but the entire team should perform this way.

Teams that are messy are a result of either a discrepancy in the strength of the dancing by the dancers, that is, certain dancers being able to execute the routine better than the rest of their dancers, or as Sid pointed out in another thread, a lack of preparation by the team. Having dancers just dance the way they want to and coining it "raw bhangra" is just silly. Dancers should dance well and they should dance well, together. You can have a team with some sick dancers, but you're not going to be able to fully enjoy their performance if your eyes keep getting drawn to dancers who keep messing up or dancers struggling to keep their backs straight during squats. Personally, I love watching live sets from India, not only because dancers execute well, but because it's sick how coordinated dancers are and how well they dance as a team.
 

Sue Sylvester

kinnell
Messages
467
I think the main crisis gripping the circuit these days is the decline of innovation. Not the decline of difficulty or the decline of complexity of sets, which can be important too, but the deprioritization or inability for teams to create sets with aesthetically-pleasing, boner-inducing innovation in the form of dancing, choreography, formations, x-factors and overall appeal.

This becomes quite evident in newer teams as well. Dancing well and dancing as a team should be priority number one. But for newer teams, they confuse innovation for difficulty and end up compromising the cohesive presentation of their routine by throwing in excessively difficult choreography that isn't even that creative to begin with (ie: 32 jumps). Teams that excelled in the past, not only danced well, but understood that creativity and "doing something different" was not the same thing as difficulty. You can be just as creative with a simpler set and it'll take your team much farther than a messy, difficult one.

Also, teams these days approach competing too methodically. They get a 74 from a judge and they think, "Shit, I got a C". It shouldn't be perceived as an absolute indication of the quality of your set. The game is relative. Do something a little different from what every other team is doing. If a team has already played catch in their khundey segment (Spoiler Alert: They have!), you're only living in their shadows by doing it too. Set yourself apart from the other teams, the rest of the circuit and your previous sets. Hell, every time SGPD did their khundey throw, they kept changing it up and doing it in different and more innovative ways. Teams prove themselves by consistently bring new ideas to the stage and executing and presenting them well.

My message to teams:
Strive to create art when you sit down to create a set. Art has meaning. Bringing out little kids/a girl at the end of your routine, when it's been done to death, without having significance for your team and for the simple sake of getting points from judges is not art. Strive to create a set that will distinguish itself and leave a mark on the circuit. Strive to create a set that will make other teams re-evaluate how they create sets. This is what the elite teams do and why they're considered elite.
 

campy614

New Member
Messages
666
siddyp said:
campy614 said:
Regarding general "bhangra in a weird place"
History shows that art forms flourish when participants allow them to take life. By distinctly thinking of bhangra as a "traditional dance" instead of an actual art form, we've stunted it's growth. By refusing to think outside of the box, and judges/organizers refusing to reward teams for "going there", bhangra in the US has hit a plateau.

By comparison:
-Interest in artistic gymnastics grows mostly in part because difficulty grows - some elements done in current routines wouldn't have even been possible 10 years ago. It's also borrowed given back elements to other art forms (I'll take break dancing and ballet for 1000 please).
-Drawing/painting/music - all art forms that have expanded because of the different ideas of participants. Different paint/pencil strokes, different techniques, different sounds and moods - each one of them contributing to the growth of their respective arts. Millions of examples of art pieces borrowing from other art forms, or at least with it as an inspiration. It's quite beautiful!
-And for a while bhangra was doing the same. Sets became more difficult, we borrowed ideas from other art forms and even contributed back to them.

This isn't to say that we should disregard all of bhangra's elements when dancing bhangra. What I'm saying is to keep pushing the envelope. Every idea matters. Every voice counts - whether you're the captain of your team, last jori, or even a substitute. This is no longer a matter "not being able to place at a comp" - this is a matter of bhangra in the US becoming extinct.
I 100% agree with you. But there will always be those who think pushing the envelope in any way isn't cool and should be shunned/banned. Which is fine. To each their own.

And I agree with Karn. It won't go "extinct" But the general interest and awe will go away.
Extinct might be a strong term. Forgive my flare for the dramatics.

Variety is what makes art interesting. I guess two of the best examples I can think of would be like Elite 2010 or Boston 2009. Each team wanted to win, but they wanted to win on their own terms with their own style. I don't think any of the teams really looked at the rubric and were like "ok we need to do this, this, and this to win." They firmly stood their ground and presented their own version of bhangra. This actually made for two fantastic shows because every team brought something different to the table that the others did not.

We see this in art millions of ways. Think of all the paintings you've seen, how they all look different from one another and why - all the techniques, the styles, etc. Think of music and all of the sounds you hear over the radio/phone/computer. The difference between Pop/Jazz/R&B/Hip-hop, how they all are so different but how they all are connected and even influence one another. It makes and keeps things interesting. It's part of the reason variety/pop stations are so popular - one minute you're listening to Beyonce and the next you're listening to Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Keep in mind, all art forms had their critics who said "This way is the only way to do it" - and then had pioneers who refused to conform. Traditionalists still exist and still practice these original techniques, but there are other artists who choose to do otherwise - and all of them are shaping their respective art forms.

I think about it now and maybe another solution is competition organizers and judges recognizing this, and celebrating it. I think about the competitions I've seen/been to lately, and while teams were on their A-game, there wasn't much variety. WBBC Cornell won, and mainly because they were the only ones to actually stand out from the rest. It's really a 3 way street here: comp organizers should keep the doors open and accept different teams and styles to participate and allow the rubric to celebrate these differences; judges should leave their own ideals of bhangra at the door, and keep their minds open to other things; teams need to go the distance - be yourselves and put on a show - you're not just competing. You're engaging an audience, you're luring a crowd.


Most importantly - you're creating art. You're putting your voice on an art form that's been around for years. Ultimately if you're doing something that defines you, no one's opinion matters - and that feeling's more gratifying than any trophy can give you. Think about it - how do you think bhangra was shaped in the first place?
 

amancheema

Active Member
Messages
240
mithu said:
amancheema said:
3 surefire ways to increase traffic and comments on your video


1) Do something sick


2) Do something dumb


3) Do something controversial

For each pont:
1) everyone focus on that one little sick thing and forgets about entire set.


2) everyone forgets everything good about the set and focuses on that one little stupid thing.


3) look at #2

 

AustinPowers

New Member
Messages
18
Lol saaley philosopher, honestly if your set is simple but clean with a gimmick, to me thats not interesting, thats just doing 8 minutes of bullshit. complexity and grace is what should be in sets, not robotic, stiff bhangra. anyone can dance like a robot, it takes to skill to paahd the bund, you know?
 

Sue Sylvester

kinnell
Messages
467
AustinPowers said:
Lol saaley philosopher, honestly if your set is simple but clean with a gimmick, to me thats not interesting, thats just doing 8 minutes of bullshit. complexity and grace is what should be in sets, not robotic, stiff bhangra. anyone can dance like a robot, it takes to skill to paahd the bund, you know?
Mandip, I don't talk about gimmicks or dancing like a robots. Let me try this again.

1. Dance well.

Sue Sylvester said:
Lifting legs, finishing moves, extending arms, being precise with execution, dancing with modhe, having grace, dancing with josh, having great form, getting low on jugni and performing on stage with presence and confidence is what I enjoy when watching teams perform...
2. Dance well as a team.

Sue Sylvester said:
You can have a team with some sick dancers, but you're not going to be able to fully enjoy their performance if your eyes keep getting drawn to dancers who keep messing up or dancers struggling to keep their backs straight during squats. Personally, I love watching live sets from India, not only because dancers execute well, but because it's sick how coordinated dancers are and how well they dance as a team.
3. Be different, but don't confuse creativity with difficulty.

Sue Sylvester said:
...create sets with aesthetically-pleasing, boner-inducing innovation in the form of dancing, choreography, formations, x-factors and overall appeal.
Simple does not mean boring. You can be hella interesting with a variety of unique formations and hard-hitting choreography. If you have a team of seasoned dancers, push the limits and make your set as intricate, as difficult and as complex as you can, provided that it can be appreciated by the audience. But if you have new dancers, my advice is to dance within limits, perform well and stand out by being creative rather than performing sets that are too difficult for them to perform.

(Side thought: Since technological singularity is inevitable, should we really be mocking our eventual robot AI overlords and their inability to dance? Just saying...)
 

itsG

New Member
Messages
309
sumeetj said:
faizan said:
I feel like the bhangra scene is in a really weird place. While it is flourishing in the UK and AUS it is dying regionally in North America.

With some regions still strong, i.e., toronto, B.C. Other places like California (which traditionally has been the strongest center of bhangra in the USA) are in decline. The DC metro/va area, traditionally a hub of bhangra activity is in the grave yard. There has just been a real lack of discourse and critique in the past three years. Teams have started to become more choosey with their competitions, focusing on doing 2-3 a year maximum. Elite teams of yesteryear have retired, see: sgpd, abc, bk, jj, nypd, and aeg. We have like a total of 2-3 strong all girls teams. The co-ed scene is dead and the number of elite all-guys teams has been cut in half.

We just keep getting these clean, cookie-cutter sets. It's like bhangra is finally at a higher standard with a there being a lot of good teams, but very few great ones. What's accepted as an elite team today wouldn't even scratch the top 10 a few years back. Not sure what the problem is, but if we want to keep seeing legendary sets, something has to change.

North American Bhangra has been in a crisis for sometime now, and no one seems to care or notice. This is worrisome.
if cookie cutter sets keep placing, thats unfortunately what people are going to do. there are teams out there that have the work ethic and talent to put on some crazy ass performances with some risky ideas, but they step back and think "well if we just do a moderately fast saap segment, throw in a few khunda spins, put one jodi in the front of jhummar who is doing it more ballet like/lovey, do jugni to a hip hop beat, and end with lots of jumps and bethke where are arms scrape the ground, then we are almost guaranteed to place as long as we are clean".

judges in the last few years have rewarded teams for doing this as opposed to doing cool stuff - hence the shift towards it.
I could not agree more
 

Cherag

Active Member
Messages
400
siddyp said:


I don't believe teams 6 years ago were executing bhangra better than the teams today. It was just plain and simply different. Watch a SGPD routine from 07, then 09, then 2011. It's not "better" it's different. As time has passed, the execution and cleanliness of the dance has become more refined, graceful, and powerful.

I do disagree to a certain extent. Teams to me were "better", and the reason I say that is that they did what they did first. And didn't just follow the same scheme of fitting to the rubric. If a team like VCU can go to 8 different competitions and place second if not first at every one of those competitions with pretty much the SAME set, there is a sense of maintained identity there. Personally I don't like keeping the same exact set for any two competitions in a season, but if a team can do that with different rubrics at every competition they are doing it their way. Teams now don't do things their way, they do what people ask them to do. I think it's dumb. SGPD didn't look like they standardized all that much in their hay day, but their teaching of moves was so good to their dancers that every choreo transition leg raise, arm raise, touch down, betak, saap hits, chafa hands, etc. we executed the exact same way. Sometimes now I do think that people focus more on cleaning than set creation. Teams now will settle on a weaker or simpler not keeping the audience on the edge of their seats set than one that changes trends and is remembered throughout the whole season, or years down the road. I am all for cleaning up a set but do it while taking risks. I don't think bhangra is being executed "better" as much because there is a huge lack of natural chatkey, natural bodily josh in all 12 dancers of a team all guys, coed or all girls. It's something I really try to teach my guys, just liking bhangra is one thing, but being a banda when you dance is different haha.

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I also think that there now are so many competitions that any Tom Dick and Harry team can win. Now by no means am I putting teams down but any team now a days could realistically place first at a competition. There are obvious tier 2 and tier 3 competitions that certain teams go to, and there's no problem in that, but I feel like more of these types of competitions kind of take away from team improvement. I feel like teams shouldn't be able to have an option to go to a mixed competition, get a first place, and not use that as a look forward to improvement to a tier one competition. Ya financially teams won't apply to a competition if they know they'll be rejected if the fee is non-refundable, but why not be good enough for that not to happen. I remember SGPD at Idols 2006 and Invasion 2007 (I think), and look to where they grew?!? Improvement is wanting to improve and not just settling with what you have just because it fits a rubric to win first.[/font]

When teams put out sets that warrant more game changing risks, while being uniform, whether its crazy stunts, amazing choreo, themes, innovative gimmicks, I think people will comment more on videos, and you'll see older people who used to be on BTF commenting left and right come back and be like damn that was HOT.
 

siddyp

Tough times never last, but tough people do.
Messages
1,270
I don't really disagree much with what you're saying. But my point was the "execution of steps."


Compare This VCU to This VCU. I'd say theres a stark difference in difficulty of routine, esp from a speed standpoint, but my point is that the execution of steps is just different.


I'd also venture to say that the level of competition wasn't as deep back then. VCU wen't and stomped on everyone because no one could match their level of dancing, cleanliness, entertainment value, everything. Nowadays, it's difficult to find a competition where a team just blew everyone else out of the water.


I think your SGPD point is interesting. They all did approach all steps the same way. Which in a sense, removed the necessity to clean like crazy.


I think where the josh/enjoyment started to get lost was when teams were told to dance as 12 and don't let dancers overdo it on nakrah etc. So as a captain, when you're talking to your team, you say "this is what judges want, don't go nuts." Which is fine because we're there to compete. But then it falls back on captains/coaches to make sure it's taught in practice to not OD yet have great josh/nakrah.


And it also comes down to the rubric teams are dancing to. You can say "do it your own way" or "take risks" but the team should always do what it needs to do to put itself in a position to place/win. It's hard for teams to grow/gain interest in their area without showing that they are successful. Esp college teams that receive school funding. The schools will be willing to offer more money given the team actually goes and does well. (atleast this is how it worked at pitt)
 

campy614

New Member
Messages
666
siddyp said:
And it also comes down to the rubric teams are dancing to. You can say "do it your own way" or "take risks" but the team should always do what it needs to do to put itself in a position to place/win. It's hard for teams to grow/gain interest in their area without showing that they are successful. Esp college teams that receive school funding. The schools will be willing to offer more money given the team actually goes and does well. (atleast this is how it worked at pitt)
Here's the thing - teams doing what they need to do to put themselves in a position to place/win shouldn't cancel out the fact that teams should take risks. It shouldn't cancel out the fact that while you're competing, the overall goal of these competitions is to entertain a crowd. Coming from the era of dancing that I was in, where each team was vocal about their own identity, I find it difficult to believe that a show can have 8-12 teams and they will all look nearly identical.

"Cleanliness" and "being creative" aren't mutually exclusive. If you come up with really cool ideas and they are difficult to implement, don't throw them out the window. Keep trying them until they work out. Not every idea will take one practice to implement - they might take longer. That's fine! Whatever it takes. Again - you're putting your voice on an art form -> make it count!
 

KushK

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,161
"just liking bhangra is one thing, but being a banda when you dance is different haha."

Well said Major Selhi! 8)
 

siddyp

Tough times never last, but tough people do.
Messages
1,270
campy614 said:
siddyp said:
And it also comes down to the rubric teams are dancing to. You can say "do it your own way" or "take risks" but the team should always do what it needs to do to put itself in a position to place/win. It's hard for teams to grow/gain interest in their area without showing that they are successful. Esp college teams that receive school funding. The schools will be willing to offer more money given the team actually goes and does well. (atleast this is how it worked at pitt)
Here's the thing - teams doing what they need to do to put themselves in a position to place/win shouldn't cancel out the fact that teams should take risks. It shouldn't cancel out the fact that while you're competing, the overall goal of these competitions is to entertain a crowd. Coming from the era of dancing that I was in, where each team was vocal about their own identity, I find it difficult to believe that a show can have 8-12 teams and they will all look nearly identical.

"Cleanliness" and "being creative" aren't mutually exclusive. If you come up with really cool ideas and they are difficult to implement, don't throw them out the window. Keep trying them until they work out. Not every idea will take one practice to implement - they might take longer. That's fine! Whatever it takes. Again - you're putting your voice on an art form -> make it count!
I completely agree. But for teams to push for that, it takes committee members like Faizan, who will push their rubric to have risk taking be a big part.

The other thing is, we've seen rubrics lump together choreography and execution. Where it would say something like:

"How unique/difficult was the choreography? Did the team fully execute the routine?" __/15

^^ If you don't fully execute, part 1 doesn't matter. At least, this is how my teams have been judged in this section in the past. More risk = less likely to fully execute.

If competitions separate these two components on their rubrics, it'll encourage teams to take more risks and become more entertaining/unique/whatever.
 

khehra36

Member
Messages
50
Maybe this is a discussion for a different thread but since I see so many people talking about doing something creative to be entertaining. I just wanted to ask that does that mean doing the Bhangra in its original style is not entertaining anymore? I mean if I see someone doing Phumaniya like how they are supposed to be done and Sial koti how that is supposed to be done I feel very entertained and proud that this is Bhangra. So do we have to change it now in order for it to be entertaining?
You guys all might be right... I am just saying because I learned Bhangra long time ago and doing Bhangra the right way was used to be very crucial back then. Maybe it is changed now. Now every team needs to have their own style and creativity into every move.
 

campy614

New Member
Messages
666
siddyp said:
campy614 said:
siddyp said:
And it also comes down to the rubric teams are dancing to. You can say "do it your own way" or "take risks" but the team should always do what it needs to do to put itself in a position to place/win. It's hard for teams to grow/gain interest in their area without showing that they are successful. Esp college teams that receive school funding. The schools will be willing to offer more money given the team actually goes and does well. (atleast this is how it worked at pitt)
Here's the thing - teams doing what they need to do to put themselves in a position to place/win shouldn't cancel out the fact that teams should take risks. It shouldn't cancel out the fact that while you're competing, the overall goal of these competitions is to entertain a crowd. Coming from the era of dancing that I was in, where each team was vocal about their own identity, I find it difficult to believe that a show can have 8-12 teams and they will all look nearly identical.

"Cleanliness" and "being creative" aren't mutually exclusive. If you come up with really cool ideas and they are difficult to implement, don't throw them out the window. Keep trying them until they work out. Not every idea will take one practice to implement - they might take longer. That's fine! Whatever it takes. Again - you're putting your voice on an art form -> make it count!
I completely agree. But for teams to push for that, it takes committee members like Faizan, who will push their rubric to have risk taking be a big part.

The other thing is, we've seen rubrics lump together choreography and execution. Where it would say something like:

"How unique/difficult was the choreography? Did the team fully execute the routine?" __/15

^^ If you don't fully execute, part 1 doesn't matter. At least, this is how my teams have been judged in this section in the past. More risk = less likely to fully execute.

If competitions separate these two components on their rubrics, it'll encourage teams to take more risks and become more entertaining/unique/whatever.
Don't get me wrong - I completely understand where you're coming from. But as far as I can remember, it's how it has always been. I don't think I've seen a rubric where execution/difficulty weren't separated. Come to think of it, I've seen a few rubrics where "difficulty" wasn't even a factor.

And there's the difference. The age where I was dancing, we "went there" knowing that there's always the chance for little/no reward. Taking Elite 2010, every team wanted to win. But we wouldn't let up on who we were to get there. As a result, we were all very different and we all did well. The variety kept the crowd interested. VCU technically won the competition. NJ took the most risk and lost, but for months/years on end people still replicated that choreo (seriously - to this day I still think of them every time I hear something even remotely close to Amplifier). If you ask me, VCU got the trophy but NJ still won the competition (Marshall if you're reading this, I still love you homie).

I hope that WBBC follows through with this, and I hope other competitions follow suit. But I still dare all teams to go the distance. Trust me when I tell you, the reward will be worth more than any judge or competition organizer can give you.
 

Cherag

Active Member
Messages
400
siddyp said:
Compare This VCU to This VCU. I'd say theres a stark difference in difficulty of routine, esp from a speed standpoint, but my point is that the execution of steps is just different.

Honestly a faster set doesn't necessarily make it more difficult. Don't get me wrong I like to dance at a higher BPM but if it means you're short cutting moves, chill out because you're dancers aren't at that level or they aren't well trained enough to execute with more speed. Speed adds positive points for difficulty but can be detrimental if arms aren't at same level on a spinning Jhandu Singha where the Khunda is in one hand.


And you're right execution of steps is different but here are even some similar things that teams do but it honestly matters on how you present them.


Girl on the green on the right going into Jugni circle:


Bhangra in the Burgh 5 (2011): Virginia Di Shaan (UVA)


Girl on the right going into Jugni circle:


Capital Bhangra @ Bulldog Bhangra 2009 (1080 HD)


Both girls are going in the same way but the girl in the Capital Bhangra video presents it to me in a way that is more appealing. Execution is huge on how you want the audience to feel from that move or that lyric or that step. If you were watching your own dancers, what do they need to do with a move or something for you to watch them and be like this guy/girl is killing whether it may be nakhra, modhe, how low/wide they get etc?



siddyp said:
I'd also venture to say that the level of competition wasn't as deep back then. VCU wen't and stomped on everyone because no one could match their level of dancing, cleanliness, entertainment value, everything. Nowadays, it's difficult to find a competition where a team just blew everyone else out of the water.

The level of competition was more intense back in the day man, I agree that there are more rubric qualified teams, but if you compare big hitters then to big hitters now, people who have known this circuit for the past 10 years like myself definitely lean toward that time period. Not because there was more excitement for those individuals at that, but because those performances or sets did touch hearts. I've had teams come to me for advice on video critiques and things of that sort and sometimes my first question is "How do you think you did?", I'm astonished when I hear, "Oh....we just wanted a clean video, or a GTV video, or to just get an opportunity to be on stage with other great teams." While every team is entitled doing bhangra for their own reason, which I respect, it just comes off as a less competitive mindset than back in the day. I danced and played Dhol with friends on Northeastern University and Boston University and at that time when all these big hitting teams came to BBC, these college teams were still like "We got this let's do it, we can place our sets gonna be fire!" Having that mentality goes back to my point where nowadays people do it for weird reasons which is also a whole different can of worms lol.

siddyp said:
I think where the josh/enjoyment started to get lost was when teams were told to dance as 12 and don't let dancers overdo it on nakrah etc. So as a captain, when you're talking to your team, you say "this is what judges want, don't go nuts." Which is fine because we're there to compete. But then it falls back on captains/coaches to make sure it's taught in practice to not OD yet have great josh/nakrah.

Nakhra and ODing is something I used to actually OD a lot haha. To me a good dancer will never OD nakhra, they know how nakhrey should be done. Nakhra is a very sensitive topic because I do feel as though in order to be good at it to a certain extent you have to understand the lyrics or understand why the artist is singing the way he is. This way you execute nakhra to match a powerful song with choreo or more graceful Svaagy nakhra.


I hate forced nakhra, If you cant do more than just smile, then just smile, don't do something you're not capable of doing, but don't stop working on it! Watching people doing head bobs where they aren't natural is the worst haha. But every should do natural nakhra and I personal think natural nakhra is controlled and isn't forced ever.


Chan on the right on his second Sammi clap in red with his head is natural nakhra controlled swagged out but doesn't take away from the performance making him look different or messy:


Nachdi Jawani @ Elite 8 Bhangra Invitational 2011 (Official HD)


siddyp said:
And it also comes down to the rubric teams are dancing to. You can say "do it your own way" or "take risks" but the team should always do what it needs to do to put itself in a position to place/win. It's hard for teams to grow/gain interest in their area without showing that they are successful. Esp college teams that receive school funding. The schools will be willing to offer more money given the team actually goes and does well. (atleast this is how it worked at pitt)

Personally if independant teams got funding it would be AMAZING without having to do gigs lol. But I guess that's why independant dancers choose to dance because they'll figure it out. Even college teams who don't get funding love it so much that they'll make said sacrifices for either their disposable income to go toward bhangra or time sacrifices where they have to do extra to make that money.


And to do it your own way I'm saying follow the rubric but go beyond the rubric and be remembered for your performance. Don't settle is the big thing I want to say I guess. You can win and place if you do it your own way, I've seen it done back in the day and now.
 
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