What ever happened to Competition Reviews? BTF's FUTURE-->

Armaan

Active Member
Messages
423
So I remember joining BTF in '08 as a freshman in college and used to love how after every competition or performance, those who attended and were on BTF many times posted full fledge reviews of the shows, quite often team by team.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this, but this concept has kinda disappeared on BTF which has been bugging me because I used to go to BTF for the sole reason of being in touch with the community and seeing how competitions and all went. These days, after competitions occur, no one really posts reviews of the competitions besides for the team captains which consist of thank yous and shout outs. It makes sense for them, but what about the spectators?

I'm just trying to vocalize this point and see what people have to say. At the end of the day, Swi/Saleem, I would love to see some sort of feature or functionality similar to the BTF kudos which incentivizes people to post these kind of reviews. It's a rough idea, but something that I truly believe should be thought about. A strong reasoning for this is that ever since BTF started, I always compared it to DDT and personally think BTF has done a much better job in terms of getting users and having actively engaged members even to this day. My girlfriend just performed at the fusion comp Nasha, and the past day or so I've been checking here or there on DDT for what people had to say. Nothing against that entire forum, but its pretty much irrelevant in terms of active users and feedback. The last thing I want to see is BTF even remotely start slowing down.

This is a shout out to all the members on this forum who are creative thinkers in terms of innovation and creating/running any sort of products that have user interaction. How can we collectively brainstorm and hopefully implement new features or improve upon current features that will help bring back some core values to our online community?

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Things to think about:


- We are not saturated, but how can we continue keep our user base growing
- Potential "feasible" features (Simple, not very complex)
- Site Layout (Is a face lift feasible by the end of the summer?)
- User experience (how to improve the experience with features such as our media center, members, CTL, messages, etc)
- What has worked and not worked (Does anyone really use the Bhangra Wiki? If so, why not and what is wrong about it?)




Lastly, for the big time technical individuals:
BTF has been sitting on the SMF Forum system since launch. This obviously is going to be a very large issue in terms of implementing alot of things listed above. Are there other potential systems we can look into to use and migrate to that can be just as successful and not have hiccups?

With the weather outside improving slowly by surely (atleast up here in Boston), I think the next few months is really the only time frame where we can potentially come together to work on modernizing and getting BTF a visual and interactive change.



I now employ all 8,475 listed members on BTF to open their minds and talk about what you want to see BTF do to keep it going strong. Please avoid repetitive comments and keep the discussion going! Hopefully a week from now we can go through this thread and narrow some stuff down.

CHEERS!
 

Armaan

Active Member
Messages
423
almost 300 views and not even one response?

... this is actually an issue
 

Kartik

Member
Messages
319
Hey Armaan, I've been trying to point out this issue for a while and agree with you 100% regarding the declining usefulness of BTF. There has been some discussion on this in the past months, most notably here:

http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/main-bhangra-discussion/giving-teams-feedback/msg209156/#msg209156

I've tried to put up detailed competition/team reviews (e.g. I did one for Bell), but there was little follow-up from anyone else in that fashion. A couple relevant points:

1) The threads that get attention are either lineup announcements, competition results, or a flare with someone hating on a team/style. There's the rare placing video that gets a ton of "omg awesome I <3 u guyz", but little feedback and constructive criticism.

2) To your point about DDT, some members from a different team pointed me to the site and honestly, I've gotta say that DDT is WAY better than BTF now at posting competition critiques and reviews (obviously not the bhangra section - I'm talking about the fusion/garba sections). For example, check out the ratio of random/short posts to long constructive reviews in these threads:

http://www.desidanceteams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=723022&sid=7b20330c4541a81c9c63609807bc3149

http://www.desidanceteams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=720347&sid=7b20330c4541a81c9c63609807bc3149

http://www.desidanceteams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=719579&sid=7b20330c4541a81c9c63609807bc3149

And those topics aren't an aberration from the norm - those are actually the first few results threads in the Raas/Garba section; I didn't pick and choose better threads.

I don't remember the last time ANY competition's results thread had this many lengthy reviews, yet somehow this was commonplace on BTF when I was a freshman.

Anyways, I'm not really sure what can be done. The posts on a thread are a consequence of the people using a site, clearly the quality/attention of BTF users has declined over time. I don't think it is possible to incentivize such users to write reviews, but maybe it's worth a shot.
 

Shahrukh

Active Member
Messages
505
Kartik said:
Hey Armaan, I've been trying to point out this issue for a while and agree with you 100% regarding the declining usefulness of BTF. There has been some discussion on this in the past months, most notably here:

http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/main-bhangra-discussion/giving-teams-feedback/msg209156/#msg209156

I've tried to put up detailed competition/team reviews (e.g. I did one for Bell), but there was little follow-up from anyone else in that fashion. A couple relevant points:

1) The threads that get attention are either lineup announcements, competition results, or a flare with someone hating on a team/style. There's the rare placing video that gets a ton of "omg awesome I <3 u guyz", but little feedback and constructive criticism.

2) To your point about DDT, some members from a different team pointed me to the site and honestly, I've gotta say that DDT is WAY better than BTF now at posting competition critiques and reviews (obviously not the bhangra section - I'm talking about the fusion/garba sections). For example, check out the ratio of random/short posts to long constructive reviews in these threads:

http://www.desidanceteams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=723022&sid=7b20330c4541a81c9c63609807bc3149

http://www.desidanceteams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=720347&sid=7b20330c4541a81c9c63609807bc3149

http://www.desidanceteams.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=719579&sid=7b20330c4541a81c9c63609807bc3149

And those topics aren't an aberration from the norm - those are actually the first few results threads in the Raas/Garba section; I didn't pick and choose better threads.

I don't remember the last time ANY competition's results thread had this many lengthy reviews, yet somehow this was commonplace on BTF when I was a freshman.

Anyways, I'm not really sure what can be done. The posts on a thread are a consequence of the people using a site, clearly the quality/attention of BTF users has declined over time. I don't think it is possible to incentivize such users to write reviews, but maybe it's worth a shot.
I find myself often messaging team a critique more often than posting on btf usually because I can type two pages worth of notes and be completely honest rather than kissing a teams a$$. I know a lot people who feel the same way.
 

PartyJatt

Active Member
Messages
1,162
The problem now is that now people just post mixes and want critiques, which is fine, but it's kind of getting selfish. I believe BTF is dying down a little bit.

After every video posted after a performance, there's the post "What's the song at ....?" I sometimes end up doing this.

Rarely will you see someone other than Swi post a detailed critique. Users used to post them all the time. We all wanted to get better together. In my eyes, this is fading away.
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
Messages
2,072
PartyJatt said:
The problem now is that now people just post mixes and want critiques, which is fine, but it's kind of getting selfish. I believe BTF is dying down a little bit.

After every video posted after a performance, there's the post "What's the song at ....?" I sometimes end up doing this.

Rarely will you see someone other than Swi post a detailed critique. Users used to post them all the time. We all wanted to get better together. In my eyes, this is fading away.
Faizan did videos for a while, K/Sue still posts, Harkiran has random bouts of critiquing. That one random user tells every co-ed team that he's sorry and doesn't mean offense but hates co-ed teams. It hasn't been totally empty, but I think the community is a lot more on facebook now. You can just email or message like 15-20 people who you trust and get feedback


also, I've had a lot of teams assume I hate them because I'm critical in my posts and people aren't used to it. It's much more productive to simply have the conversations over email or pm so you can have back and forths and clarify things.
 

Psant

UNC Bhangra Elite Alum, Brandeis Bhangra
Messages
434
I try to review comps/teams as much as I can, but it definitely takes a lot of time and effort. I agree with your idea of incentives for reviews.
 

Saab

Today is a gift
Messages
991
Swi said:
PartyJatt said:
The problem now is that now people just post mixes and want critiques, which is fine, but it's kind of getting selfish. I believe BTF is dying down a little bit.

After every video posted after a performance, there's the post "What's the song at ....?" I sometimes end up doing this.

Rarely will you see someone other than Swi post a detailed critique. Users used to post them all the time. We all wanted to get better together. In my eyes, this is fading away.
Faizan did videos for a while, K/Sue still posts, Harkiran has random bouts of critiquing. That one random user tells every co-ed team that he's sorry and doesn't mean offense but hates co-ed teams. It hasn't been totally empty, but I think the community is a lot more on facebook now. You can just email or message like 15-20 people who you trust and get feedback


also, I've had a lot of teams assume I hate them because I'm critical in my posts and people aren't used to it. It's much more productive to simply have the conversations over email or pm so you can have back and forths and clarify things.
Feedback in real time is way better at articulating people's points to the fullest. I think a large group of users shy away from Btf because of the way discourse seems to have very positive and negative connotations to it. I think some users resort to more personal forms of contact to get straight to the point rather than have the potential to be misconstrued in here. The community is way more well connected, and since older users tend to populate Btf posts more, it's harder to see reviews when everyone has seemingly become buddies
 
Messages
921
faizan said:
The circuit is dead and has been all season...more or less
not just this season faizan



Ill pm someone, call them, facebook a critique instead of posting it here cause they turn into cry baby rage monsters...just better to avoid all that unnecessary BS. Btf has also turned into a music/mix source instead of what it used to be when i first joined this forum. Believe people just don't care anymore to give their remarks because of all the drama bhangra creates. BUT !!!!!! There are a few that give amazing posts like SRK, Swi, Fauj guy( forgot his name), Kinnell, Basim, Faizan!!! So i say keep it up your words are very wise and helpfull!!!!!
 

J Wong

Member
Messages
301
Deepi253 said:
faizan said:
The circuit is dead and has been all season...more or less
not just this season faizan



Ill pm someone, call them, facebook a critique instead of posting it here cause they turn into cry baby rage monsters...just better to avoid all that unnecessary BS. Btf has also turned into a music/mix source instead of what it used to be when i first joined this forum. Believe people just don't care anymore to give their remarks because of all the drama bhangra creates. BUT !!!!!! There are a few that give amazing posts like SRK, Swi, Fauj guy( forgot his name), Kinnell, Basim, Faizan!!! So i say keep it up your words are very wise and helpfull!!!!!
Cry baby rage monsters- LOL

Critiques always end up with some guy stating that the "circuit is evolving" etc etc etc "bhangra is evolving" etc etc etc. Its like you can't even critique anymore because someone will insinuate you are old school and only care about being folk etc and attempt to negate your critique. So I'm not going to waste my time writing one then unless specifically asked.
 

voxanimus

<('.'<) (>'.')>
Messages
1,685
faizan said:
The circuit is dead and has been all season...more or less

prophetic faizan platitudes? i missed these.


anyway, BTF is becoming increasingly bad at serving its eponymous function for primarily one reason: the majority of today's active user base doesn't really give a shit about bhangra dance.


almost every BTF post, today, is a variation on either of the following:


1. I put a dildo on a hihat, turned it on, and included that sample in MY NEW MIX **DOWNLOAD** **NOT MASTERED**
2. Song/Loop/thing that probably could have been googled request


people that understand and can meaningfully critique performances are not only in the minority, they are much much more busier than they were 2 or 3 years ago, during BTF's halcyon days.
 

J Wong

Member
Messages
301
Additionally, what do people want in critiques? Given that there can be, and often are, diametrically opposed viewpoints, the only thing that can be considered universal is cleanliness, but that would be a horrible critique. "You need to be more clean. End critique."


Examples:


If I said: Your jhummar form was sloppy and/or incorrect.
Reply: That's just variation bro, the bhangra is evolving bro.


If I said: Too many gimmicks, stay folk.
Reply: Gimmicks are what win, you need to stay with the times.


If I said: You variate moves too much and detract from the essence of the original steps.
Reply: That is creativity.


At what point does the critique cease to be useful? A critique is supposed to help a team grow but with so many conflicting viewpoints, I envision it would be difficult for teams, especially new teams, to extract any meaningful information.
 

siddyp

Tough times never last, but tough people do.
Messages
1,270
J Wong said:
Additionally, what do people want in critiques? Given that there can be, and often are, diametrically opposed viewpoints, the only thing that can be considered universal is cleanliness, but that would be a horrible critique. "You need to be more clean. End critique."


Examples:


If I said: Your jhummar form was sloppy and/or incorrect.
Reply: That's just variation bro, the bhangra is evolving bro.


If I said: Too many gimmicks, stay folk.
Reply: Gimmicks are what win, you need to stay with the times.


If I said: You variate moves too much and detract from the essence of the original steps.
Reply: That is creativity.


At what point does the critique cease to be useful? A critique is supposed to help a team grow but with so many conflicting viewpoints, I envision it would be difficult for teams, especially new teams, to extract any meaningful information.

your examples are coming from your own bias. you can't judge a team using your own bias. You should see what the team was going for, and go off of that.

For example: they were trying to vary the way they did fasla. Did you enjoy the variation? if not, tell them why you didn't.

if they did a gimmick or multiple gimmicks: did it flow with the routine? did it take away? did you just not enjoy the gimmick?

and if the jhoomer is choppy, say "look, I appreciate you trying to vary things up, but vary things up while keeping the moves flowing together, and smooth. there was too much choppiness to the steps and it didn't look right."
 

Basim

♥ BTF ♥
Staff member
Messages
1,459
I know that I'll probably get a lot of shit for saying this, but I feel the best times of the "Bhangra scene" (in North America) were the early 2000's - mid/late 2000's). Those of us who danced for entertainment, with competitive teams, watched Bhangra competitions, etc in that time period would probably agree.


While I feel the level of dancing is probably a lot higher now, it was just plain FUN going to competitions and throwing whatever set you had on stage.. the audience just seemed a lot more "alive" and eager to see new sets/new teams. Everyone had such a blast just kickin' back and just enjoying the environment.. it was less about who placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd or about arguing with judging about who why so many points were taken off. I also don't remember hearing or seeing teams cause fights or getting kicked out of their hotel rooms as much (especially in the early 2000's). Not saying there weren't incidents here and there, it just seems more common these days.


That's not to say that people wouldn't talk s*it on POL about so & so team.. but it usually wasn't one team bad mouthing another.. there was a level of respect that was held. It was more some groupies or spectators trying to hype things up or trying to cause drama (thankfully we have BTF now & there aren't random people registering just to bad mouth teams/competitions/etc).


I believe someone touched on it a little bit, but I feel in order for BTF and the "scene" in general to keep thriving... the next generation (like those of us who are 16/17 years old and younger) really needs to get more involved and be heard. The older crowd will definitely lead the way and it's quite important for us to set a good example, but I'm seeing a large disconnect with the newer dancers/newer teams trying to make a breakthrough - it seem tough as ever these days. With the limited number of competitions we have, everyone wants to see the best of best face off.. but that doesn't really help up & coming teams (with newer dancers).


Lastly, in terms of critiquing competitions & teams - I used to post a lot more of them, but it was hard to tell who really appreciated & took in suggestions. Being one of the "old timers" here, I don't really have the time or dedication to post huge critiques/competition reviews. Heck, with all the other priorities in life.. finding the time to attend local/regional competitions is becoming hard - I'm quite envious of those who get to fly out to so many national competitions just to watch! I'm similar to others in that I'll provide some feedback if asked to and I'm always happy to do so. The most recent example of this was when I asked by a few of the JJ guys (via PM & facebook) for some feedback on their Bhangra at the Bell performance.


Anyway, I probably could type a bunch more on the issue at hand, but I'll leave it at that. Really would like to see some of the newer generation take over the scene and turn it into their own creation (for better or worse).


Much love,


~ Basim :)
 

Sue Sylvester

kinnell
Messages
467
Take a step back from trying to write critiques and just post your opinions. People get caught up thinking they're not qualified to write a BTF post or trying to figure out ways to constructively tell the team how to improve, but in the end, some teams just want to hear what the fans, the other teams and the bhangra circuit thought and felt after watching their performance. Many times, your opinions are appreciated by people who have no affiliation with the said team/competition, so do it for them too. I mean, how many of us have found ourselves getting ready for nightly festivities after the competition, refreshing BTF on the mobile, rummaging for specks of reviews, however insignificant, random or redundant it may seem?

I was thinking about this last week, but I'm going to start giving karma to people who post opinions/personal reviews of competitions (and occasionally teams), even if I disagree. It doesn't matter if it's a major competition or a Vaisakhi Mela in Cleveland. Just post your thoughts... for the sake of the turtles.
 

singhk1

New Member
Messages
416
Swi said:
PartyJatt said:
The problem now is that now people just post mixes and want critiques, which is fine, but it's kind of getting selfish. I believe BTF is dying down a little bit.

After every video posted after a performance, there's the post "What's the song at ....?" I sometimes end up doing this.

Rarely will you see someone other than Swi post a detailed critique. Users used to post them all the time. We all wanted to get better together. In my eyes, this is fading away.
Faizan did videos for a while, K/Sue still posts, Harkiran has random bouts of critiquing. That one random user tells every co-ed team that he's sorry and doesn't mean offense but hates co-ed teams. It hasn't been totally empty, but I think the community is a lot more on facebook now. You can just email or message like 15-20 people who you trust and get feedback


also, I've had a lot of teams assume I hate them because I'm critical in my posts and people aren't used to it. It's much more productive to simply have the conversations over email or pm so you can have back and forths and clarify things.
Don't judge me based on One of my opinions bro, I Sometimes tell teams where they could've improved . And it makes the team just that much better... I'm sorry I don't kiss those teams asses if there could be room for improvement why not tell them it can only do good...Majority of the time I just sit back and enjoy I mean that is the only reason I come on this, for performances and music...just like majority of the ppl on here

When you have an dance like Bhangra and the options of how you do it are just so broad, Ideas are bond to clash and not everyone's going to agree with one another. Maybe you just think I'm coming off disrespectful because Its online or maybe Sometimes I don't explain myself thoroughly but I'm not talking shit...maybe you should just read what I say more carefully considering the fact that you're already writing about me bud
 

Saleem

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
1,928
This is an important thread and covers several things that have been on my mind for a long time. I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on this, and will be posting more in the next day. Thanks for starting this thread.
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
Messages
2,072
singhk1 said:
Swi said:
PartyJatt said:
The problem now is that now people just post mixes and want critiques, which is fine, but it's kind of getting selfish. I believe BTF is dying down a little bit.

After every video posted after a performance, there's the post "What's the song at ....?" I sometimes end up doing this.

Rarely will you see someone other than Swi post a detailed critique. Users used to post them all the time. We all wanted to get better together. In my eyes, this is fading away.
Faizan did videos for a while, K/Sue still posts, Harkiran has random bouts of critiquing. That one random user tells every co-ed team that he's sorry and doesn't mean offense but hates co-ed teams. It hasn't been totally empty, but I think the community is a lot more on facebook now. You can just email or message like 15-20 people who you trust and get feedback


also, I've had a lot of teams assume I hate them because I'm critical in my posts and people aren't used to it. It's much more productive to simply have the conversations over email or pm so you can have back and forths and clarify things.
Don't judge me based on One of my opinions bro, I Sometimes tell teams where they could've improved . And it makes the team just that much better... I'm sorry I don't kiss those teams asses if there could be room for improvement why not tell them it can only do good...Majority of the time I just sit back and enjoy I mean that is the only reason I come on this, for performances and music...just like majority of the ppl on here

When you have an dance like Bhangra and the options of how you do it are just so broad, Ideas are bond to clash and not everyone's going to agree with one another. Maybe you just think I'm coming off disrespectful because Its online or maybe Sometimes I don't explain myself thoroughly but I'm not talking shit...maybe you should just read what I say more carefully considering the fact that you're already writing about me bud
jokes bro jokes, meant to be tongue in cheek. I 100% appreciate you posting rather than not posting at all, that's why I included you! The point I was making is that people are posting and it's not all ass-kissing, i.e. it hasn't been totally empty of people commenting. That's why I mentioned you, and btw I didn't even name you by name on purpose because it wasn't important to the point I was making, you called yourself out!
 
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