Barren West Coast Scene - What can we do?

[mafzal]

When I moved to California last year, I thought i'd be in bhangra heaven. While I luckily got to enjoy a few comps, it's very sad to see how many have died and it's definitely bringing down the whole scene. I was at local bay area teams' practice this weekend and they were struggling to find comps to apply to... Teams need comps or else everything will die out

What can we as dancers/teams/judges do to help competitions survive? Help new competitions get established?

Let's address the issues and see if we can do something about it:

1. Money - Funding and sponsorships to host these competitions. I don't think most of us realize how expensive it is to host a good show. Organizers who have raised lots of money, maybe you can share wisdom and best practices
2. Attendance?
3. Behavior - Destructive team behavior at hotels and venues, violence, fighting
4. What else?

CONSTRUCTIVE CONVERSATION ONLY PLEASE 8)

*****************
RIP Warrior Bhangra
RIP Dhol Di Awaz
RIP Giant Bhangra
RIP Bulldog Bhangra
and sooo many more
*****************

 

[faizan]

The entire North American circuit is becoming barren. The west coast, including BC are shells of their former selves. Toronto is quiet as hell. Right now only the East is staying afloat.

The UK and AUS are the only circuits that are flourishing.

 

[siddyp]

I personally think there is plenty of opportunity for more comps... If a committee is actually committed to doing things the right way from top to bottom:

1. Learning how to properly market the competition and sell tickets to the whole local population and not just Punjabi folks.
2. Learning how to get good sponsors, and help them SEE and GET the return on their investment.

If a competition does those 2 things, money will never become an issue.

When it comes to teams:

1. Transparent judging. In regards to this topic, we've seen time and time again that the west coast and BC has had problems with good judging. In my conversations with folks out west, they believe this is the reason the west coast/BC comps have died off because it just leaves a horrible taste in teams mouths and they don't want to return...
2. After Parties always being not that much fun due to not being able to get in, or a fight breaking out so the whole thing gets shut down etc.
3. Committee members not being on top of their ish. It seems like the West Coast is notorious for committee members not taking good care of teams, and not communicating nicely to ensure the teams know what's up at all times.

I personally have had good experiences at Bruin, a GREAT one at Warrior 2011, and a pretty bad one at Rangla Punjab 2012. So a lot of the above comes from reading reviews on BTF and talking to folks.

But to me, if these things are executed well, competitions won't die.

 

[amancheema]

The DMV is alive and well.

I think a non-invitational, non-collegeiate competition (even though elite 8 and blowout are dope) in the area would really be a hit... especially if it mimicked the folk prioritization of retired Virginia competitions (AVAP/VPD).


Edit: didn't realize this was a thread about the west coast... woops.

 

[yomamajama]

Simple answer: the economy is much better than years past. More jobs means more time to make real money, less time to do other things like bhangra :-\

Truth hurts, I'm not gonna lie, but it is what it is.

Oh ya: LEGGO SEAHAWKS #imaboutdatactionbauss

 

[Saab]

Simple answer: the economy is much better than years past. More jobs means more time to make real money, less time to do other things like bhangra :-\

Truth hurts, I'm not gonna lie, but it is what it is.

Oh ya: LEGGO SEAHAWKS #imaboutdatactionbauss

I don't think this is the right correlation. Typically, people who work in "better" jobs usually prioritize free time due to increased affluency(usually sudden). If your flipping burgers for a living, you normally work longer hours or more jobs.


Real culprit is the age of dancers, exclusivity of competitions, lack of established college teams, poor audience and society engaement, etc. Competitions that do social outreach always win in the long run.

 

[The Honest Truth]

I think its important to address the fact that its too easy to form a bhangra competition these days. Get a couple of friends together, get some decent sponsorship, a good deal on a venue, and whalaaaa, you can throw a competition. Having too many competitions isn't good for the scene either as it makes getting into these competitions much easier and the quality of teams much lower. Also, when these new comp committees throw a competition, the overall experience isn't as good as it can be. Not saying you have to bhangra experience to be able to throw a comp, but it sure does help make the overall process a lot easier and they are bound to cater and communicate to the teams in a much better way. I think instead of focusing on reviving lower tier comps like, emphasis should be placed on bringing back the higher quality comps that bring in higher teams. This also corrects the attendance issue because then people have a good solid comp to look forward too with high caliber teams. In California for example, instead of having 7-9 compeitions in a calenday year, filtering out some comps and brining it down to 3-4 solid competitions make the overall competition better in terms of competition, quality of experience, attendance, etc.

 

[hardeep_singh]

What can you do?
forget competitions, one of the cool things about dmv is all the melas.
maybe melas should be taken more seriously in the circuit because they have the best aspect of a competition, performing in front of a hyped up mostly punjabi family audience, without all the inconsequential shit, mixers, afterparties, bhangra drama.

 

[arnab]

to me, it seems like a lot of it stems from the fact that the bhangra community (west coast or otherwise) hasn't really ever been that big. i mean, even when there were several west coast competitions in the "golden era"... you could probably fit all the real movers and do-ers of the bhangra community in a room (not a very big one at that).


the problem with that small size is that it's way too easy for those few do-ers to fall off. they get old, have kids.... who knows. the community of energized people just isn't large enough to be self-sustaining.


maybe i'm biased lol, but i think that east coast and dmv has done well in this regard because younger kids in this area have so many ways to get involved in the bhangra community early on. there's academies (self pump), melas, high school teams/competitions - all so that kids can get excited about bhangra and when they get to college and beyond, they're really adding to the circuit.


unfortunately, we don't have the exciting novelty that the generation before us had - when bhangra was first hitting north america and everything was so new, and being part of a team/comp meant that you could be a part of that exciting growth. i think we have to work more to kindle that fire now, and developing bhangra addicts from an early age is a great way to do it.

 

[GreenKnight17]

I agree with Mariam 100% back when i first started bhangra in 2009 there was a plethora of bhangra comps in cali which gave us the chance to make a name for ourselves. I now have started a girls team in the bay area and it is so hard for us to get our name out there when there is no competitions going on except for bruin, the rest of them are out of state which makes it hard for a team who has just started to go to. And it is not only me I know of many new bhangra teams that have started just recently and know for a fact that it will be an obstacle to get their names out there as well.

 

[Basim]

I personally would love to see more QUALITY competitions that give NEWER TEAMS a chance if (and only if) they can draw large crowds/fill a venue. If you're hosting the competition in a city where you can draw in people from the Punjabi/Desi community, colleges/universities in the area, high schools, places of work, etc.. then it works out great. Even if prize money would be slightly lower at these competitions, it would help greatly.

While I, as much as the next fan, love to see the powerhouse teams go up against one another (it creates so much hype).. as "GreenKnight17" mentioned, there needs to be a platform that allows newer teams, who don't have competition experience and lots of stage time, to be able to perform.

There used to be these sorts of competitions that would cater more toward newer teams and I feel we need some of those back. I personally know of many newer teams that could use these competitions to be introduced to the circuit, gain some exposure, meet other teams, etc.

I think new comp committees should utilize the many resources they have available to make sure everyone attending (performers & audience members) has a decent time. There is a wealth of knowledge that can be gathered from BTF, dancers in the circuit, fans/attendees of other comps, etc. Also, it's very important to have a structure in place so that year after year, the competition can continue to flourish and there is a committee who has the opportunity to take things "to the next level"/improve. Many times there are a group of friends who put on a competition, but there is nobody to take continue to run the competition once this group of friends decide they no longer wish to be involved.

I would respectively disagree with "The Honest Truth" in that putting together any sort of competition is an "easy" task and his overall viewpoint on this issue to be frank. No offense bro.

~ Basim

 

[yomamajama]

Simple answer: the economy is much better than years past. More jobs means more time to make real money, less time to do other things like bhangra :-\

Truth hurts, I'm not gonna lie, but it is what it is.

Oh ya: LEGGO SEAHAWKS #imaboutdatactionbauss

I don't think this is the right correlation. Typically, people who work in "better" jobs usually prioritize free time due to increased affluency(usually sudden). If your flipping burgers for a living, you normally work longer hours or more jobs.


Real culprit is the age of dancers, exclusivity of competitions, lack of established college teams, poor audience and society engaement, etc. Competitions that do social outreach always win in the long run.

Well the mortgage crisis, or the great recession, from 2007-2010 had about 10.2% unemployment during that time. When you don't have a majority of people getting jobs, there really is nothing else to do other than doing activities that keep you occupied. Heck, BTF was created in 2008, right smack during the crisis. 2008-2010 was when BTF flourished; you had like three different bhangra idols competitions on the same day, now you just have one, you had a great variety of CA comps, especially in the Bay area like DDA (NJ's epic performance), bulldog, NorCal Bhangra, etc, now you only have Bruin and probably one other. Creativity was off the charts during that time because people had more time to be creative. College students during that time really had nothing to look forward to in terms of jobs because the job market was horrible, and thus you had epic college teams like DRP, CAL, VCU, etc. dancing cuz you had students doing a lot more things unrelated to their field of study.


From 2010-2014, unemployment rate dropped to 5.4%. Im not saying that the job market is perfect, but its a lot easier now for a college student to get a job in engineering, consulting, accounting, or paralegal fields right out of college if they focus on their GPAs and extracurriculars related to their field to get that job. A lot more students are going to grad school right out of college too, in their young 20s, cuz there are more jobs opening up in law and medicine, especially with new interpretations and programs related to Obamacare, and with student interest rates for loans being lowered than the 2008-2010 period. A lot of the older alumni in BTF are moving on either cuz of these opportunities, or cuz they have kids and they have to get on those opportunities. Thus, one could say that a better economy and more jobs is correlated to lower interests in other things that really add no value.


Really, when you look at it, the economy can be a great indicator in determining the level of interest in bhangra.

 

[Mr. Mankiran]

Basim is 1000% correct. Doesn't it get tiring seeing similar lineups at every other comp?


Its the opportunities given to newer teams (especially collegiate) that helps the circuit grow. If there is incentive for these younger dancers to stay motivated and keep dancing, there will be MORE teams that are BETTER. Also, once these dancers finish college, they ideally will have been exposed to and love bhangra enough to start/participate in regional teams.


Unfortunately, we live in a world where people organizing comps want all the best teams and the lineups feature the same teams every year and we act like something great/crazy happens when a newer team sneaks into a lineup; its as if we expect comps to have the same lineup from the previous year.

 

[SGupta7]

There are a ton of factors that go into it. One is just that the east coast is so densely populated with brown people. More people can find their way into the circuit on the east coast, which creates more teams (and more tier 1 teams), and requires more good competitions. Aside from a couple cities in California and a couple cities in Texas, the majority of Indians are living on the east coast. No easy fix there.


Secondly, I think the west coast is struggling because the teams that have been considered elite in the past are starting to see less success. Cal, Empire, ABC, etc. have all dropped off in the last couple years while other west coast teams aren't competing nearly as often (BK, VanCity, DRP). It kinda turns into this vicious cycle where east coast teams compete more because there are more comps, so they continue to get popular, which in turn, allows other east coast comps to spring up.


Not sure what the fix is or if there is one, but I hope the scene ramps back up. Warrior and Bruin were two of my favorites comps, not to mention getting In-N-Out haha

 

[mafzal]

I would love to hear from current and former organizers - What have been the biggest challenges? What kind of help can teams, dancers, BTF provide? Why did your competition end, what would take for it to come back?

It makes me so sad to see young teams that are eager to compete, getting discouraged by the lack of opportunity out there

Also - love the conversation about small comps and melas! Yes please!

My goal with this thread is to identify the the challenges and see what we can do to help turn it around

 

[Prabhzy]

Maybe US/Canada teams should try coming to UK comps to branch out. It might help share ideas from across the ponds on how comps are run here and take the good things we do back to North America

 

[yomamajama]

Or just wait for the economy to crash, interest will spike soon after

 

[kman58]

While causation does not necessarily equal correlation, the points about the economy do make sense. However that might also mean that since more people are getting jobs right out of college/going to grad school and don't have time for bhangra once they're done undergrad, they'll be doing the majority of their dancing while in undergrad. Thus, collegiate teams should be flourishing right now, and while there are some solid collegiate teams out there (CMU, UVA, etc.), it still doesn't come close to the number of big independent teams that are on lineups.


The "giving newer teams a shot" thing really strikes a chord with me. New teams definitely need a competitive base to be able to come up and get their members a taste of what hitting a big stage is like. While the committees do need to get the best lineup possible, it is always fun to see those 2 or 3 random teams from some random place/school nobody's heard of. Who knows they might become the next best thing one day as a result.

What can you do?
forget competitions, one of the cool things about dmv is all the melas.
maybe melas should be taken more seriously in the circuit because they have the best aspect of a competition, performing in front of a hyped up mostly punjabi family audience, without all the inconsequential shit, mixers, afterparties, bhangra drama.

Amen amen amen.

 

[Saab]

Simple answer: the economy is much better than years past. More jobs means more time to make real money, less time to do other things like bhangra :-\

Truth hurts, I'm not gonna lie, but it is what it is.

Oh ya: LEGGO SEAHAWKS #imaboutdatactionbauss

I don't think this is the right correlation. Typically, people who work in "better" jobs usually prioritize free time due to increased affluency(usually sudden). If your flipping burgers for a living, you normally work longer hours or more jobs.


Real culprit is the age of dancers, exclusivity of competitions, lack of established college teams, poor audience and society engaement, etc. Competitions that do social outreach always win in the long run.

Well the mortgage crisis, or the great recession, from 2007-2010 had about 10.2% unemployment during that time. When you don't have a majority of people getting jobs, there really is nothing else to do other than doing activities that keep you occupied. Heck, BTF was created in 2008, right smack during the crisis. 2008-2010 was when BTF flourished; you had like three different bhangra idols competitions on the same day, now you just have one, you had a great variety of CA comps, especially in the Bay area like DDA (NJ's epic performance), bulldog, NorCal Bhangra, etc, now you only have Bruin and probably one other. Creativity was off the charts during that time because people had more time to be creative. College students during that time really had nothing to look forward to in terms of jobs because the job market was horrible, and thus you had epic college teams like DRP, CAL, VCU, etc. dancing cuz you had students doing a lot more things unrelated to their field of study.


From 2010-2014, unemployment rate dropped to 5.4%. Im not saying that the job market is perfect, but its a lot easier now for a college student to get a job in engineering, consulting, accounting, or paralegal fields right out of college if they focus on their GPAs and extracurriculars related to their field to get that job. A lot more students are going to grad school right out of college too, in their young 20s, cuz there are more jobs opening up in law and medicine, especially with new interpretations and programs related to Obamacare, and with student interest rates for loans being lowered than the 2008-2010 period. A lot of the older alumni in BTF are moving on either cuz of these opportunities, or cuz they have kids and they have to get on those opportunities. Thus, one could say that a better economy and more jobs is correlated to lower interests in other things that really add no value.


Really, when you look at it, the economy can be a great indicator in determining the level of interest in bhangra.

Where are you getting your information from? I just downloaded data sets from the department of labor and those four year periods you described had unemployment rates of 7.6 (2007-2010) and 7.6 (2010 to 2014). In fact, the highest percentage of unemployment comes from the years 2009-2012, where unemployment hits 9%(Peak is 9.6%). If we reset your parameters of the recession to just the highest years of unemployment (2009 - 2012) and use 2007-2008 and 2013-2014 as post and pre-collapse, you are looking at 3% gap in unemployment. These statistics include a working population over the time period of about 67%, or 211 million people. This is probably skewed in the sense that these statistics track active job seekers and not welfare recipients, transient workers, part-time workers, etc, but it gives a pretty good estimate for where things stand.

The most important statistic, arguably, is the difference between high school dropouts vs bachelor degree obtainers(this metric sets starting standard age at 25 years, probably to account for the attainment of a bachelor degree). Over the course of 2009-2012, average unemployment for people who dipped from high school is 14%, whereas in pre and post depression time periods, that rate drops dramatically to 9% or a 5% decrease. Compare that with bachelor degree recipients, who felt unemployment creep up to 4.5 % over the course of the recession and had pre and post ratings of about 3%, totaling a 1.5% difference.

Now, I know there are dumb people on planet earth, but if we just assume the entire west coast bhangra scene passed high school and went to college and got a bachelors degree, the economic crisis really passes them by. The idea that people studying and doing shit for school is really smoke and mirrors at this point, since its generally accepted that unemployment rate for bachelor degree graduates has been stagnant for quite some time(http://www.businessinsider.com/college-vs-no-college-unemployment-rates-2013-6 goes into some detail about the differences in education, etc).

Tying this back to bhangra - literally the no.1 reason why I think a lot of your ideas fall apart is because bhangra is a high-cost activity. It's literally this concept of spending 100's to thousands of dollars per year to win about a 20% portion of the proceeds back. To say that bhangra participation is purely a product of economic high and low tides ignores the fact that bhangra at its core is a huge drain on resources. Imagine tomorrow you would have no access to food - would you spend the night before snacking away at what you have in some last gasp to have fun? No - yeah didn't think so. Whereas, and I'll stress this, a bachelor degree doesn't necessary mean you'll get a job(and let's be honest, dissatisfaction arises from the lack of choosing your job), bachelor degree levels of learning insulate you from job elasticity during a depressed economic state(Just look up a general labor vs leisure diagram to get specifics on how time is spent).


Generally speaking, i think you are applying economic principles and causality the wrong way and giving the economic downturn too much credence for the lack of dancers in the circuit. In fact, the rise of college teams in depression periods would support the idea that students would prioritize alternate forms of leisure and extra curricular activities when looking forward too a recovery.

I would hypothesize that since a critical mass of dancers on these teams left the circuit between the years 2010-2013(end of recession into recovery), you could see a dip in overall "Active Head" participation of the circuit. Coupled with the rise of independent teams, this leaves collegiate teams stuck in a cycle of constantly rebuilding year after year with less and less resources. I would argue that bhangra has also become oversaturated in some markets and undermarketed and underappreciated in some others - lack of engagement within the community and attendance retention are probably two of the major reasons why bhangra excitement dies in urban areas, which are pretty critical for it attain long-term growth. It'll be interesting of talking through those points on the thread.


TL;DR - Economics may play an underlying role in bhangra participation, but is not the main cause. Its a multifaceted problem.

 

[yomamajama]

Cheers mate, your intellect is impeccable. Give me a day, I will respond.

In the meantime, round on me