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Bhangra Bash Judging
- Thread starter Bharathi
- Start date
NDbhangra87
New Member
- Messages
- 48
Dont attack my "thought process" because i directly called you out.Your not evaluating my opinion in a english class. I can honeslty say that you should not have judged this competition.As for the rubric not outlining that dancers cant go offstage you should not have docked marks. You don't MAKE the judging criteria mandeep you follow it next time if you want to add your own criteria into a rubric then CONTACT the competition and offer to volunteer to HELP out with it,be a board member,be involved in it knock yourself out.I just thought you were more professional then that but i guess not.On a different note it is good that you came to your defense.Good luck in your upcoming competitons.
Bharathi
Member
- Messages
- 336
"However, the other three judges were also vocalizing and providing feedback as well." <-- I don't think so. The California judge made a point about our dance style being too masculine which you immediately shot down. As for the other two judges I didn't hear a peep out of them, as I didn't out of the California judge after your comment towards him. I had my co-captain in the room who can vouch for this, not that it matters now.
"As for marks being docked for going on and off stage we had addressed this with the Bhangra Bash committee to add this to the rubric but this was never resolved, therefore I cannot speak on the behalf of the other judges, but personally if there was any in or out in any team’s performance I took off marks for stamina." <-- Mandeep you are a respected judge and amazing dancer yourself; however, I can't agree with this vital aspect of a competitive bhangra routine being open to interpretation by judges. Either marks are docked for leaving stage or they are not...according to ISA they were NOT to be docked. If the stamina portion was not defined as to what counts as stamina then that's not up to any judges to define on the day of the competition.
Again I'm not posting all this to offend you or Jora but I'm trying to ensure that in the future competitors don't have issues with competitions, organizers, or judges like we've had. I appreciate your empathy but surely you can see what I'm trying to achieve by my post is a general change, not a personal attack and I certainly hope you aren't taking it that way.
"As for marks being docked for going on and off stage we had addressed this with the Bhangra Bash committee to add this to the rubric but this was never resolved, therefore I cannot speak on the behalf of the other judges, but personally if there was any in or out in any team’s performance I took off marks for stamina." <-- Mandeep you are a respected judge and amazing dancer yourself; however, I can't agree with this vital aspect of a competitive bhangra routine being open to interpretation by judges. Either marks are docked for leaving stage or they are not...according to ISA they were NOT to be docked. If the stamina portion was not defined as to what counts as stamina then that's not up to any judges to define on the day of the competition.
Again I'm not posting all this to offend you or Jora but I'm trying to ensure that in the future competitors don't have issues with competitions, organizers, or judges like we've had. I appreciate your empathy but surely you can see what I'm trying to achieve by my post is a general change, not a personal attack and I certainly hope you aren't taking it that way.
Kush
Active Member
- Messages
- 1,401
Lol i got back an hour ago (stayed for almost five days in rather beautiful seattle weather), and knew this was coming from the moment placings were called. First of all, to the Jawani girls, almost all of you know my personal and our entire teams support for you guys. Unfortunately we didn't get to watch your performance because we were up next, but if the crowds ERUPTION and comments of audience members after the show were any indication, you guys rocked it.
As for the judging, I really don't want to comment as i think every team performed phenomenally. I'll give all my shout outs in the Bash Results thread (i got a ton), BUT i think from the moment that the judging line up was released, the ramifications and bias questions arose in everyones head. I'm not saying ANY of the judges acted on this, or that they were even wrong in any way. What i think was there is room for QUESTION...
All in all, this was an amazing weekend. Well organized competition for the most part. I'll post a review of the comp (not team performances in particular, but how things went) in the results section. Congrats to all the winners. I'm about to hit play on this youtube link and watch jawani rip it. Oh and for the record, the bash crowd felt somewhat dead. I sat and watched 3 of the performances in the first half, and while on stage, i was solely motivated by a group of 4-5 people sitting first/second row seemingly cheering us on and giving us support, despite being relatively unknown and definite underdogs. So the fact that there was FULL ON CHEERING at the end of the jawani's performance is another testament to this teams ability to put on a show.
As for the judging, I really don't want to comment as i think every team performed phenomenally. I'll give all my shout outs in the Bash Results thread (i got a ton), BUT i think from the moment that the judging line up was released, the ramifications and bias questions arose in everyones head. I'm not saying ANY of the judges acted on this, or that they were even wrong in any way. What i think was there is room for QUESTION...
All in all, this was an amazing weekend. Well organized competition for the most part. I'll post a review of the comp (not team performances in particular, but how things went) in the results section. Congrats to all the winners. I'm about to hit play on this youtube link and watch jawani rip it. Oh and for the record, the bash crowd felt somewhat dead. I sat and watched 3 of the performances in the first half, and while on stage, i was solely motivated by a group of 4-5 people sitting first/second row seemingly cheering us on and giving us support, despite being relatively unknown and definite underdogs. So the fact that there was FULL ON CHEERING at the end of the jawani's performance is another testament to this teams ability to put on a show.
Bhangra Girl
New Member
- Messages
- 14
If you scroll up, she posted it here too 
But thanks for reposting it!
But thanks for reposting it!
mona99
New Member
- Messages
- 36
I'm sorry I should have included this in my previous post, but the marks I docked for stamina (when part of the team was off stage) was 1 point out of a possible 5. The organizers were addressed with the issue of on and offs again at the judges meeting prior to the competition, but what was relayed to us was neither a clear yes or no, but ltold it was left for us to mark according to our own judgement, hence I did. It did not sit favourably with me that members of the team had to break from the dancing to step on and off as this was a break in endurance so I made the one point deduction.
“If the stamina portion was not defined as to what counts as stamina then that's not up to any judges to define on the day of the competition”-Bharati. In response to this stamina to me is sustained endurance and energy over the length of the performance and this was definitely taken away from by the off and on of the team members so I made the one point deduction. You have to realize that there were teams who were on that stage the entire duration of their performance, whereas your team had renewed energy with the fresh members coming from the sides of the stage and this was a definite impact on the stamina portion of the score sheet.
I interrupted that judge soley in defence of your dancing not being masculine- (this came up during the deliberation where a couple of us jumped to that defence for your team) he was trying to express as he did in deliberation that it was forced, in doing so he mentioned ‘masculine’ and I only interrupted in defence that in fact your dancing was not masculine.
Bharati, please rest assured that I in no way am taking any of these posts personally, as if I were in your shoes or another teams’ shoes I would be asking the same questions and inquiring about the same issues. This is your right as a competitor and I welcome any further questions and concern you may have therefore please feel free to email me at mpatrola@hotmail or if you have my number you can also call me or facebook me and I’ll forward my number to you. However if you would like to continue asking your questions via BTF that is fine with me.
Rab Rakha,
Mandeep
“If the stamina portion was not defined as to what counts as stamina then that's not up to any judges to define on the day of the competition”-Bharati. In response to this stamina to me is sustained endurance and energy over the length of the performance and this was definitely taken away from by the off and on of the team members so I made the one point deduction. You have to realize that there were teams who were on that stage the entire duration of their performance, whereas your team had renewed energy with the fresh members coming from the sides of the stage and this was a definite impact on the stamina portion of the score sheet.
I interrupted that judge soley in defence of your dancing not being masculine- (this came up during the deliberation where a couple of us jumped to that defence for your team) he was trying to express as he did in deliberation that it was forced, in doing so he mentioned ‘masculine’ and I only interrupted in defence that in fact your dancing was not masculine.
Bharati, please rest assured that I in no way am taking any of these posts personally, as if I were in your shoes or another teams’ shoes I would be asking the same questions and inquiring about the same issues. This is your right as a competitor and I welcome any further questions and concern you may have therefore please feel free to email me at mpatrola@hotmail or if you have my number you can also call me or facebook me and I’ll forward my number to you. However if you would like to continue asking your questions via BTF that is fine with me.
Rab Rakha,
Mandeep
Majority of BTF agree's with Bharathi, so why even argue with her, whoever is arguing with her, why not just answer her questions, simple.... if Jawani didn't place in the top 5, then after watching their routine I better see some crazy Ludhiana College Bhangra for the top 5 teams, cause their routine was near flawless. Can't wait to see all of the other teams videos.... Jora is like a brother to me and simply put, if he felt that him being a judge wasn't a good idea then he should have just turned Bash down and not judged, problem solved... other then that I'm just waiting for the videos now.
In reply to Mandeep
I will only be leaving one post with regards to Bhangra Bash. This being said I need not justify to anyone on this forum the decisions that were made by the judging panel. However, since there have been some very presumptious messages left on this forum I am inclined to respond and provide some basic facts and answers to some questions:
You have now left 2 posts regarding Bhangra Bash, and you are now trying to justify the decisions that were made by the judging panel
(A common theme of contradicting yourself will now follow)
We had a 5 member judging panel (2 judges from Washington, 1 from California and 2 from Vancouver)
All 5 judges reached the same consensus of our top 4-5 teams. Any one judge's bias could not have altered the decision of a 5 member judging panel.The judges had a deliberation period after the last competing act. A judge’s deliberation will rule out any discrepancies, bias, and favourtisim. In the case of Bhangra Bash all 5 judges agreed and had the same consensus regarding the top 4-5 teams. In the deliberation room aside from the 5 judges there was also the score keeper, and 2 additional organizers present who were there as witnesses but had no voice nor say. Upon the deliberation and tallying of the score sheets all of the 5 judges felt the outcome of winning teams was sound and fair.
This is from the judging rubric
Scoring Details:
Each team will be scored on the 100 point scale above from 3-7 judges. The scores will then be averaged and the winner with the highest average will be announced the winner. In the case of a tie, the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie.
Hmm it does not say, that a consensus needed to be made about the winner, it says an average of the scores will be taken and the best team would win. ALSO in the case of a tie the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie...(I guess you guys missed that to). In addition, I must point out that since you guys decided to deduct points based on your own interpretations (ie. taking people off stage, stimina etc.) rather than the specific point deductions listed in the rubric, the "highest average" would not have reflected an accurate representation of the performances that night anyway...
In my opinion the score sheet and related rubric, as well as the breakdown of points was not very defined and none like I've seen before. We as judges did request the Bhangra Bash committee to change the layout and certain rubric; however we were denied, and therefore had to score according to the already set rubric.
Then you said
The organizers were addressed with the issue of on and offs again at the judges meeting prior to the competition, but what was relayed to us was neither a clear yes or no, but ltold it was left for us to mark according to our own judgment, hence I did. (seems like you are trying to defend yourself again?), and with 8 years of experience, you should have known that this VERY issue would have been brought up if you decided to start taking off points based on your own 'judgment'
As for Jawani Bhangra, I can completely empathize with what they may be feeling as it’s hard not to feel that way when the audience and your peers think you should have placed (again, trust me I’ve been there), however it needs to be understood that as judges we must follow a certain criteria and we can’t base our decisions on crowd reaction.
That specific criteria does not seem like it was followed
1) the situation with the going on and off stage; it was not in rubrics therefore marks should not have been deducted
2) since you have been in the bhangra circuit for the past 8 years I would expect that you would have picked on what "disrespect to Punjabi culture is" and in the judging rubrics this would mean a deduction of 10 points. From what I have heard BMW had a "gimmick" in their routine where they kicked their Khunday. (I speak for my view here and I would agree that it is consistent with most people on this forum that kicking a khunda would be considered disrespect to Punjabi culture). So again you did not follow the "certain" criteria.
Any team that did not place or didn’t place first or second, please know the competition was tight and very close and the point differences were minimal.I'm sorry I should have included this in my previous post, but the marks I docked for stamina (when part of the team was off stage) was 1 point out of a possible 5.
You say that the placings were very close and were separated by minimal points. Bhangra competitions can be won and lost on half a point, as we have experienced this before. So saying that it was only 1 point deducted by yourself (and other judges may possibly have deducted one or more as well) results in a very inaccurate representation of the scores that Jawani would have received, especially since this point deduction is listed NOWHERE in the judging rubric that you claimed you 'followed'
In no way is this post intended to disrespect anyone, it is simply to point out discrepancies between the judging rubrics that were received and the post explaining the judging by yourself (Mandeep, as you have been the only judge that has replied). I am trying to get a better understanding of the situation however I feel that every post from you just creates further questions as oppose to answering them.
Balraj Aulakh
Jawani Bhangra
I will only be leaving one post with regards to Bhangra Bash. This being said I need not justify to anyone on this forum the decisions that were made by the judging panel. However, since there have been some very presumptious messages left on this forum I am inclined to respond and provide some basic facts and answers to some questions:
You have now left 2 posts regarding Bhangra Bash, and you are now trying to justify the decisions that were made by the judging panel
(A common theme of contradicting yourself will now follow)
We had a 5 member judging panel (2 judges from Washington, 1 from California and 2 from Vancouver)
All 5 judges reached the same consensus of our top 4-5 teams. Any one judge's bias could not have altered the decision of a 5 member judging panel.The judges had a deliberation period after the last competing act. A judge’s deliberation will rule out any discrepancies, bias, and favourtisim. In the case of Bhangra Bash all 5 judges agreed and had the same consensus regarding the top 4-5 teams. In the deliberation room aside from the 5 judges there was also the score keeper, and 2 additional organizers present who were there as witnesses but had no voice nor say. Upon the deliberation and tallying of the score sheets all of the 5 judges felt the outcome of winning teams was sound and fair.
This is from the judging rubric
Scoring Details:
Each team will be scored on the 100 point scale above from 3-7 judges. The scores will then be averaged and the winner with the highest average will be announced the winner. In the case of a tie, the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie.
Hmm it does not say, that a consensus needed to be made about the winner, it says an average of the scores will be taken and the best team would win. ALSO in the case of a tie the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie...(I guess you guys missed that to). In addition, I must point out that since you guys decided to deduct points based on your own interpretations (ie. taking people off stage, stimina etc.) rather than the specific point deductions listed in the rubric, the "highest average" would not have reflected an accurate representation of the performances that night anyway...
In my opinion the score sheet and related rubric, as well as the breakdown of points was not very defined and none like I've seen before. We as judges did request the Bhangra Bash committee to change the layout and certain rubric; however we were denied, and therefore had to score according to the already set rubric.
Then you said
The organizers were addressed with the issue of on and offs again at the judges meeting prior to the competition, but what was relayed to us was neither a clear yes or no, but ltold it was left for us to mark according to our own judgment, hence I did. (seems like you are trying to defend yourself again?), and with 8 years of experience, you should have known that this VERY issue would have been brought up if you decided to start taking off points based on your own 'judgment'
As for Jawani Bhangra, I can completely empathize with what they may be feeling as it’s hard not to feel that way when the audience and your peers think you should have placed (again, trust me I’ve been there), however it needs to be understood that as judges we must follow a certain criteria and we can’t base our decisions on crowd reaction.
That specific criteria does not seem like it was followed
1) the situation with the going on and off stage; it was not in rubrics therefore marks should not have been deducted
2) since you have been in the bhangra circuit for the past 8 years I would expect that you would have picked on what "disrespect to Punjabi culture is" and in the judging rubrics this would mean a deduction of 10 points. From what I have heard BMW had a "gimmick" in their routine where they kicked their Khunday. (I speak for my view here and I would agree that it is consistent with most people on this forum that kicking a khunda would be considered disrespect to Punjabi culture). So again you did not follow the "certain" criteria.
Any team that did not place or didn’t place first or second, please know the competition was tight and very close and the point differences were minimal.I'm sorry I should have included this in my previous post, but the marks I docked for stamina (when part of the team was off stage) was 1 point out of a possible 5.
You say that the placings were very close and were separated by minimal points. Bhangra competitions can be won and lost on half a point, as we have experienced this before. So saying that it was only 1 point deducted by yourself (and other judges may possibly have deducted one or more as well) results in a very inaccurate representation of the scores that Jawani would have received, especially since this point deduction is listed NOWHERE in the judging rubric that you claimed you 'followed'
In no way is this post intended to disrespect anyone, it is simply to point out discrepancies between the judging rubrics that were received and the post explaining the judging by yourself (Mandeep, as you have been the only judge that has replied). I am trying to get a better understanding of the situation however I feel that every post from you just creates further questions as oppose to answering them.
Balraj Aulakh
Jawani Bhangra
Dhesi
New Member
- Messages
- 101
Wasn't at Bash so can't comment on teams. -I was in snowy Detroit (go Red Wings!)
My only comment is towards the stamina deductions. To take points off for stamina because dancers left stage does not actually make sense. If the dancers were not supposed to leave but started getting lazy and tired and then left, then it would be an indication of lack of stamina; leaving while it is part of the routine has no reflection on whether or not those members are ABLE to perform that segment.
If you assume that because a dancer(s) steps out of the routine for a segment, they lack the stamina to do that segment, then you must also assume that teams that prepare relatively "slower/calmer" routines only do so because they don't have the stamina to pull off a "faster/energetic" routine. Random example off the top of my head: recent Davis routines I've seen are a calm/slower pace for the most part, and recent Nachdi Jawani routines are a fast/energetic pace for the most part. Now does this mean Nachdi Jawani should receive higher points for stamina than Davis? I would think not. Because a team elects not to do something, does not mean that you should assume that they are unable to.
As for biases, it is pretty much known that no matter how professional any individual thinks they are, they possess biases; it is human nature. One has SOME level of control over HOW MUCH they're biases get involved, but nobody can deny that biases do exist. In my opinion, Jora and Mandeep should not have been judges, but for different reasons. Mandeep should not have been a judge, since she is an active member of the competitive bhangra circuit (in my opinion, regardless of a lapse in time, if an individual has never officially retired, and does have a realistic plan to dance again, they are still active. Jora should not have been a judge because of his connection to United dancers performing that night. To go on and add more reasons like teams sharing practice locations, teams being afraid of another team's success, future plans and fears of competing against teams, is useless because these reasons are subjective opinions and honestly don't really have any validity.
On a more positive note, I would like to congratulate all of the teams that performed at Bhangra Bash. I think for the most part, many of the discrepancies are being handled quite professionally. It sounds like there were a lot of teams that gave amazing performances; too bad I haven't seen any. I've just downloaded the Jawani set but I'm too tired to watch it right now as I just got home from Detroit and have work at 7am. Sucks to hear about the BMW fight incident.
Goodnight kids.
My only comment is towards the stamina deductions. To take points off for stamina because dancers left stage does not actually make sense. If the dancers were not supposed to leave but started getting lazy and tired and then left, then it would be an indication of lack of stamina; leaving while it is part of the routine has no reflection on whether or not those members are ABLE to perform that segment.
If you assume that because a dancer(s) steps out of the routine for a segment, they lack the stamina to do that segment, then you must also assume that teams that prepare relatively "slower/calmer" routines only do so because they don't have the stamina to pull off a "faster/energetic" routine. Random example off the top of my head: recent Davis routines I've seen are a calm/slower pace for the most part, and recent Nachdi Jawani routines are a fast/energetic pace for the most part. Now does this mean Nachdi Jawani should receive higher points for stamina than Davis? I would think not. Because a team elects not to do something, does not mean that you should assume that they are unable to.
As for biases, it is pretty much known that no matter how professional any individual thinks they are, they possess biases; it is human nature. One has SOME level of control over HOW MUCH they're biases get involved, but nobody can deny that biases do exist. In my opinion, Jora and Mandeep should not have been judges, but for different reasons. Mandeep should not have been a judge, since she is an active member of the competitive bhangra circuit (in my opinion, regardless of a lapse in time, if an individual has never officially retired, and does have a realistic plan to dance again, they are still active. Jora should not have been a judge because of his connection to United dancers performing that night. To go on and add more reasons like teams sharing practice locations, teams being afraid of another team's success, future plans and fears of competing against teams, is useless because these reasons are subjective opinions and honestly don't really have any validity.
On a more positive note, I would like to congratulate all of the teams that performed at Bhangra Bash. I think for the most part, many of the discrepancies are being handled quite professionally. It sounds like there were a lot of teams that gave amazing performances; too bad I haven't seen any. I've just downloaded the Jawani set but I'm too tired to watch it right now as I just got home from Detroit and have work at 7am. Sucks to hear about the BMW fight incident.
Goodnight kids.
mona99
New Member
- Messages
- 36
In response to Balraj:
You have now left 2 posts regarding Bhangra Bash, and you are now trying to justify the decisions that were made by the judging panel
(A common theme of contradicting yourself will now follow)
Balraj, my second post was in relation to the first, and the only reason I said I wasn’t going to post beyond my original post was because I didn’t feel like I would have anything to say beyond what was detailed in that posting. However, when I saw misinterpretations I was inclined to respond. So my friend if you are counting my posts, I am now at post number 3. I have left your statements in red and my responses are in blue. I in no way contradicted myself in my original post, I simpy layed out some basic facts.
This is from the judging rubric
Scoring Details:
Each team will be scored on the 100 point scale above from 3-7 judges. The scores will then be averaged and the winner with the highest average will be announced the winner. In the case of a tie, the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie.
Hmm it does not say, that a consensus needed to be made about the winner, it says an average of the scores will be taken and the best team would win. ALSO in the case of a tie the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie...(I guess you guys missed that to). In addition, I must point out that since you guys decided to deduct points based on your own interpretations (ie. taking people off stage, stimina etc.) rather than the specific point deductions listed in the rubric, the "highest average" would not have reflected an accurate representation of the performances that night anyway...
Balraj, you have clearly misconstrued and misunderstood what I stated. No where in my post did I say that a consensus about the winner was made, instead I said that all 5 judges had the same consensus about the top 4-5 teams, meaning, that according to our score sheets and the way we scored we all ended up having the same top 4-5 teams. Perhaps I should have spelled this out, or perhaps next time you should give it a more careful read.
The organizers were addressed with the issue of on and offs again at the judges meeting prior to the competition, but what was relayed to us was neither a clear yes or no, but ltold it was left for us to mark according to our own judgment, hence I did. (seems like you are trying to defend yourself again?), and with 8 years of experience, you should have known that this VERY issue would have been brought up if you decided to start taking off points based on your own 'judgment'
I don’t see how you translate the above paragraph as an effort to defend myself, actually it’s quite the opposite Balraj. I was in fact stating that since the organizers left it to us to judge and mark as we find suitable I did exactly that: I did not agree that Jawani Bhangra should get full team marks for stamina because of the break that 4 members got off stage during a segment of the performance. How is this an effort to defend myself, I’m being candid and stating a fact.
That specific criteria does not seem like it was followed
1) the situation with the going on and off stage; it was not in rubrics therefore marks should not have been deducted
2) since you have been in the bhangra circuit for the past 8 years I would expect that you would have picked on what "disrespect to Punjabi culture is" and in the judging rubrics this would mean a deduction of 10 points. From what I have heard BMW had a "gimmick" in their routine where they kicked their Khunday. (I speak for my view here and I would agree that it is consistent with most people on this forum that kicking a khunda would be considered disrespect to Punjabi culture). So again you did not follow the "certain" criteria.
Yes the on and off was not on the score sheet, however, to me it was a stamina related issue and this is where I personally made the deduction. As for kicking the Khunda, I have seen in the past people using the Khunda in many different way ie, spinning it on the floor as they do chakri over it, slamming it on the floor, sitting on it, standing on it and the list goes on. In my perspective the way that BMW used the Khunda was not disrespectful-this is my opinion soley, wether the other judges docked points for it I cannot say, but in my opinion I did not find this to be disrespectful to Punjabi Culture.
You say that the placings were very close and were separated by minimal points. Bhangra competitions can be won and lost on half a point, as we have experienced this before. So saying that it was only 1 point deducted by yourself (and other judges may possibly have deducted one or more as well) results in a very inaccurate representation of the scores that Jawani would have received, especially since this point deduction is listed NOWHERE in the judging rubric that you claimed you 'followed'
Again, I interpreted Jawani’s on and off as a deduction to their overall stamina, what the other judges thought of this and if they deducted marks for this, or how they categorized the on and off I cannot say. Balraj, I am not 'claiming' I followed the score sheet, I did follow the score sheet and in my opinion having 4 members chilling on the sidlines and then returning to the dance set after a break affects the overall stamina of the team, therefore marks were deducted in the endurance and stamina category-I did not create a seperate category for ins and outs. As judges we scored according to what we saw and distributed our marks accordingly and this was reflected in the final round up of teams.
In no way is this post intended to disrespect anyone, it is simply to point out discrepancies between the judging rubrics that were received and the post explaining the judging by yourself (Mandeep, as you have been the only judge that has replied). I am trying to get a better understanding of the situation however I feel that every post from you just creates further questions as oppose to answering them.
Balraj, I know you don’t mean any disrespect, but you also must know that I have no reason to defend myself nor the judging panel as I feel the judging was accurate. I have not seen too many judges in the past open the lines for communication once a competition has passed, however I have gone to lengths to do that because as your peer I know how frustrating it can be to be left on the sidelines with a hundred questions on your mind. I have stated to a sufficient extent on my behalf about the judging, the rubric, the final results and my perspective, but do remember I am one out of 5 judges and you still have four others who may be able to further answer and clear anyother speculations you might have.[/color]
Finally this can go on forever and ever but I have said what I needed to on this topic and beyond this if you still have questions or concerns you can email or message me directly as I will not be responding via this thread.
Rab Rakha,
Mandeep
Moderator's note: fyi - Blue color font is reserved for moderator use only.
You have now left 2 posts regarding Bhangra Bash, and you are now trying to justify the decisions that were made by the judging panel
(A common theme of contradicting yourself will now follow)
Balraj, my second post was in relation to the first, and the only reason I said I wasn’t going to post beyond my original post was because I didn’t feel like I would have anything to say beyond what was detailed in that posting. However, when I saw misinterpretations I was inclined to respond. So my friend if you are counting my posts, I am now at post number 3. I have left your statements in red and my responses are in blue. I in no way contradicted myself in my original post, I simpy layed out some basic facts.
This is from the judging rubric
Scoring Details:
Each team will be scored on the 100 point scale above from 3-7 judges. The scores will then be averaged and the winner with the highest average will be announced the winner. In the case of a tie, the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie.
Hmm it does not say, that a consensus needed to be made about the winner, it says an average of the scores will be taken and the best team would win. ALSO in the case of a tie the judging panel will converse and hold a vote to break the tie...(I guess you guys missed that to). In addition, I must point out that since you guys decided to deduct points based on your own interpretations (ie. taking people off stage, stimina etc.) rather than the specific point deductions listed in the rubric, the "highest average" would not have reflected an accurate representation of the performances that night anyway...
Balraj, you have clearly misconstrued and misunderstood what I stated. No where in my post did I say that a consensus about the winner was made, instead I said that all 5 judges had the same consensus about the top 4-5 teams, meaning, that according to our score sheets and the way we scored we all ended up having the same top 4-5 teams. Perhaps I should have spelled this out, or perhaps next time you should give it a more careful read.
The organizers were addressed with the issue of on and offs again at the judges meeting prior to the competition, but what was relayed to us was neither a clear yes or no, but ltold it was left for us to mark according to our own judgment, hence I did. (seems like you are trying to defend yourself again?), and with 8 years of experience, you should have known that this VERY issue would have been brought up if you decided to start taking off points based on your own 'judgment'
I don’t see how you translate the above paragraph as an effort to defend myself, actually it’s quite the opposite Balraj. I was in fact stating that since the organizers left it to us to judge and mark as we find suitable I did exactly that: I did not agree that Jawani Bhangra should get full team marks for stamina because of the break that 4 members got off stage during a segment of the performance. How is this an effort to defend myself, I’m being candid and stating a fact.
That specific criteria does not seem like it was followed
1) the situation with the going on and off stage; it was not in rubrics therefore marks should not have been deducted
2) since you have been in the bhangra circuit for the past 8 years I would expect that you would have picked on what "disrespect to Punjabi culture is" and in the judging rubrics this would mean a deduction of 10 points. From what I have heard BMW had a "gimmick" in their routine where they kicked their Khunday. (I speak for my view here and I would agree that it is consistent with most people on this forum that kicking a khunda would be considered disrespect to Punjabi culture). So again you did not follow the "certain" criteria.
Yes the on and off was not on the score sheet, however, to me it was a stamina related issue and this is where I personally made the deduction. As for kicking the Khunda, I have seen in the past people using the Khunda in many different way ie, spinning it on the floor as they do chakri over it, slamming it on the floor, sitting on it, standing on it and the list goes on. In my perspective the way that BMW used the Khunda was not disrespectful-this is my opinion soley, wether the other judges docked points for it I cannot say, but in my opinion I did not find this to be disrespectful to Punjabi Culture.
You say that the placings were very close and were separated by minimal points. Bhangra competitions can be won and lost on half a point, as we have experienced this before. So saying that it was only 1 point deducted by yourself (and other judges may possibly have deducted one or more as well) results in a very inaccurate representation of the scores that Jawani would have received, especially since this point deduction is listed NOWHERE in the judging rubric that you claimed you 'followed'
Again, I interpreted Jawani’s on and off as a deduction to their overall stamina, what the other judges thought of this and if they deducted marks for this, or how they categorized the on and off I cannot say. Balraj, I am not 'claiming' I followed the score sheet, I did follow the score sheet and in my opinion having 4 members chilling on the sidlines and then returning to the dance set after a break affects the overall stamina of the team, therefore marks were deducted in the endurance and stamina category-I did not create a seperate category for ins and outs. As judges we scored according to what we saw and distributed our marks accordingly and this was reflected in the final round up of teams.
In no way is this post intended to disrespect anyone, it is simply to point out discrepancies between the judging rubrics that were received and the post explaining the judging by yourself (Mandeep, as you have been the only judge that has replied). I am trying to get a better understanding of the situation however I feel that every post from you just creates further questions as oppose to answering them.
Balraj, I know you don’t mean any disrespect, but you also must know that I have no reason to defend myself nor the judging panel as I feel the judging was accurate. I have not seen too many judges in the past open the lines for communication once a competition has passed, however I have gone to lengths to do that because as your peer I know how frustrating it can be to be left on the sidelines with a hundred questions on your mind. I have stated to a sufficient extent on my behalf about the judging, the rubric, the final results and my perspective, but do remember I am one out of 5 judges and you still have four others who may be able to further answer and clear anyother speculations you might have.[/color]
Finally this can go on forever and ever but I have said what I needed to on this topic and beyond this if you still have questions or concerns you can email or message me directly as I will not be responding via this thread.
Rab Rakha,
Mandeep
Moderator's note: fyi - Blue color font is reserved for moderator use only.
All I have to say is that, all us performers can do, is do just that and perform. That is the only thing we can control, we can't control how the judges think or mark us. Nobody will EVER be happy with the results of ANY competition. Judging ... It is what it is.
Pooja
I put the double o in cool.
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- 932
A. You guys placed, so of course you're not going to be participating in the back and forth banter on what was appropriate or not for this particular competition. You have a natural bias to favor the placings (as any team who won would).Herman said:
B. The point of this forum, and these discussions, is not always to whine and complain for days and days about not winning, but rather to make everyone aware that yes we can't control at that moment what the judges mark, but you can give feedback and constructive criticism for future competitions. If we don't give feedback, things will never change. Yes, judging is unfair many times, but that's why we all discuss what was unfair about them...so that next year perhaps Bash will not choose affiliated judges, or perhaps they will make their rubric more clear...etc.
This is a mature and constructive discussion rather than the "dAt ShIt wUz wHaCk, da pLaCinGz wUz rOng" comments we tend to get many times...
campy614
New Member
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- 666
True, but at this point we've talked about unfair judging for nearly every single competition. We've talked about the disadvantages of having judges affiliated with members of a certain team. We've talked about unfair/bias/unclear judging rubics. We've argued about traditional vs. modern a gabillion times (can we stop that-please and thanks!). We've talked about how important it is to have knowledgeable judges...and nearly every time results from a competition are posted, we're right back at square one. Nothing has changed. And to be honest, I'm not sure if anything will. No one will ever be satisfied.Pooja said:
I will say this though-there are plenty of teams that can't get into competitions like Bash. There are plenty of teams who've worked hard all season and could only get into the competitions that no one on this forum has ever heard of. There are also plenty of people who watch teams on stage and say "I wish I can do that!" I'm not sure how bhangra transitioned from several different fun dances into a bunch of 20-something year olds going back and forth about unfair placings at a competition... for a dance (now singular) that was never intended for such. I think we've all lost a sense of why we do bhangra and why we enjoy it so much.
Then again-what do I know. I'm white.