Boston Bhangra - Looking for Judges

[faizan]

Faizan: it only matters if the team is doing a boli/sher as part of their performance. If they want to present it, it should be judged and critiqued as hard as the dancing

I guess, but if I was a judge I would not decrease points for shitty pronunciation. A good faith effort to do a sher is fine by me. It's a dance competition not a linguistics competition. As long as delivery is smooth enough and the person does not forget...it's not an issue to me. I commend teams for trying on the sher, but dancing should still get strict scrutiny. I understand it is part of the overall package, but to take points off because someone is not pronouncing right seems too orthodox. We used to have joey zuniga do our sher, if someone took points off for his pronounciation, i would think they were fools.

 

[yraparla]

Faizan: it only matters if the team is doing a boli/sher as part of their performance. If they want to present it, it should be judged and critiqued as hard as the dancing

I guess, but if I was a judge I would not decrease points for shitty pronunciation. A good faith effort to do a sher is fine by me. It's a dance competition not a linguistics competition. As long as delivery is smooth enough and the person does not forget...it's not an issue to me. I commend teams for trying on the sher, but dancing should still get strict scrutiny. I understand it is part of the overall package, but to take points off because someone is not pronouncing right seems too orthodox. We used to have joey zuniga do our sher, if someone took points off for his pronounciation, i would think they were fools.

again so the comp/rubric matters right? If you're given points for execution of a sher/boli then i think yes, you should lose points if execution is not there. But if it's just overall presentation (like 10 pts for opening), then the scope of points it contributes to is small, so it's not necessary to take off explicitly for the mistakes.

 

[HarmanSingh]

To All:
We are currently looking for Bhangra judges for the Boston Bhangra Competition 2011. We have a handful of candidates already, but we're looking to add more credentialed individuals.
If you want to be a judge, please contact us @ info@bostonbhangra.com.

Several credentials that we look for:
1) Judges must be Punjabi
2) Judges must have past experience in dancing/teaching Bhangra
3) Judges must NOT be affiliated to any other Bhangra team

Sincerely,
Boston Bhangra, Inc

1) At least one judge should be punjabi, I dont know about the board. I can't understand punjabi, but I understand the relevance of gimmicks. You just have to listen to the crowd(they go wild). Gimmicks shouldn't be measured by there relevance to the lyrics, but on crowd effect. Every judge judges with that somewhat in mind(usually this goes hand-in-hand). I can see where it might be necessary song selection, but I dont see this as a competition favor live boliyan or live teams.

2)Nice. This is a huge plus. You should also consider the relevancy of when they danced(Captain of College team, 1967-1971 Polytechnical St. Marys College whatever whatever) and there views of past topics of relevance(OMG WOMEN DANCE...OMG OMG OMG) and newer topics(I saw that gimmick before. Comparing all-guy vs all girl(OMG THEY DANCE) vs coed).

3) This is slightly ridiculous. I commend you for trying, but by asking btf, your asking a group of people who have danced within the past four years or are affiliated with some team in that time span. You would have had better results on craigslist. There are VERY few people here that could fill all three, as this place not only pulls people together, but your already exposed to prior team content. Have you seen rosters these days? There are like 29 people on them from 6-7 different teams, and potentially 2-3 countries.


What I am taking from this is not that your asking BTF, but are rather telling us thats what your looking forward and are trying to get. Honestly, there might be the odd lurker here who MIGHT be able to fill your request....

On a side note, all the "Great" bhangra dancers from back in the past are usually associated with some academy, or get asked to guest teach. Established teams usually use these resources. So even if you wanted to get the dude doing 64 beats of jugni and in that grimy youtube video from '69, hes probably apart of some academy too.

Good luck.

You can't understand the relevance of a gimmick based off of crowd noise. Most hometown teams get much more support throughout an entire routine than a lesser known team from out of state/the country. If you are going solely based off of the audience's reaction, that is a terrible (and unfair) way to judge. Also, I don't see how you would be able to judge a singer's pronunciation/understand the sher/see why a team put certain moves in certain places if you don't understand Punjabi.

I agree on the hometown team getting more support regardless of any gimmick or dancing. but if a gimmick doesn't get the crowd to react, why should a team get a + for the gimmick from a judge that 'understands' what they did? If the idea is to entertain the audience and the team isn't succeeding at doing that with their gimmick, then what does it matter if you understand what's happening or not? The couple instances where I can agree with you for example is when APD/KJ hugged each other while having Yaar Anmulley in their mix and the crowd reacted! Someone who doesn't understand punjabi would have trouble understanding what's happening. But the dupatta gimmicks, the farm related gimmicks, the girl/guy interaction gimmicks, should be easily recognizable for any judge who has been around bhangra for some time.

Even after tallying of points, when deciding who had the best performance of the night: one team danced for 8 strait mins, vs a team that had a 15 second break in the middle for a gimmick. But Does a gimmick flow in the routine? or is it just added in and forced? Was it executed seamlessly? or was it sloppy? Was it in good taste? or was it just random? Did it bring momentum to the performance? or did it stop what the team had going? All of these points IMO should be assessed when judging a gimmick. I personally do not believe you have to understand punjabi to be able judge the 'performance' aspects of the gimmick.

I have been to competitions in Toronto where the crowd will literally go dead silent for any team outside of Toronto. If you are going by crowd reaction, these teams from outside of Toronto have no shot at placing even though everyone could agree they had great routines. Without a doubt crowd reaction plays a role in a judge's perception of a routine, but it should not be the thing a judge makes his/her decision off of. A judge should consider the rubric, not what the audience is making the most noise about.

The thing with the other gimmicks you listed are that I have seen teams do these things to songs that make no sense for them. That is where a punjabi speaking judge could say "wait a minute, this routine was not put together with a lot of thought" (for example a song a team used about the 1984 massacre of Sikhs). Stuff like that happens and a non Punjabi speaking judge would be oblivious to it, just as they would be oblivious to the numerous examples of awful pronunciation we have seen from singers/people doing shers.

I can understand song selection. Non-sensical language would obviously be a detriment to a routine. This can be problematic, but I think could adroitly be solved by the presence of at least SOMEONE with an understanding of punjabi, not the entire panel. If your also offended by drug or alcohol use in songs, I think some non-punjabis, just by the measure of what they have danced too, have heard enough punjabi to understand the reference and the possible gimmick attached to it.

However, I don't see too many doing what you have described. The rubric, for most competitions, do not explicitly outline gimmicks. The competition in question provides judging feedback for "creativity", but is far more likely to be explicit in crowd reaction. Honestly, while the gimmick portion is applicable under a wide spectrum and is best left to the judges, most competitions have things like powerful opening, crowd reaction, and overall performance in respect to the audience. It is not bad judging, it is the rubric itself that I am ascribing my stance too.

You are, in the way your presenting your language on the evaluation of gimmicks, saying that you could potentially see this altering or factoring heavily in the judging. From what I have seen, the teams that have consistently done well have done "dance' based gimmicks, rather than gimmicks relating to the song itself. Nachdi doing there intro to amplifier, sgpd doing the saap jumps, vcus tribute to other teams etc at Elite 8, those are all DANCING gimmicks.

Also, yeah it sucks traveling out of town to compete with local teams. A lot of time this occurs due to the financial aspect of running competitions. However, teams have won coming in from out of town. It takes more time and preparation, and a lot of understanding what the crowd would be looking forward too. Its why some teams dont apply to competitions across North America anymore. Its an inherant understanding that if there style of dancing is not compatible with what is happening at the comp, why spend the time and effort building a set that will go for naught and pay(loads of money) for it? Look at bruin. Aeg made a great, entertaining, and flowing set that won them first, and there from New York. Says a lot, considering the heavy hometown love the comp has.

Do I agree with you to an extent. Yes. Teams do make lyrical plays upon there dancing. However, they often times do not as well. Simply suggesting EVERYONE should be speaking punjabi for the sake of many of these things is not needed. I also think you get that from dancing quite often. It just brings up a problem of a very small and selective sample size that might not be relevant to the performance going on stage.

Again, nice comments though.

In an ideal world every judge would be fluent in Punjabi and have the other credentials too (danced/taught/no current affiliations) but I am well aware there are not many of these people around who are willing or able to judge. But, having at least one person on the panel with fluency in Punjabi is vital to having a respectable judging panel.

Not every gimmick in a routine which plays on the words requires a team to stop dancing. Also, certain moves are accentuated with corresponding bolis/songs, some small things like curling your mustache because it is mentioned in the song are all lost on non-Punjabi speakers. Yeah, teams from outside of the hometown can win, but I can bet you KJ had the loudest crowd reaction at Bruin. Should we just do away with judged and judge by crowd reaction? I get what you are saying but a judge should look at the performance level, not on the crowd's noise.

 

[hardeep_singh]

lol what a flustercuck. anyways can the BBC committee please apply the fluency in punjabi constraint to prospective hosts of the show, would be nice having a host that could pronounce "bhangra" and team names correctly.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Faizan: it only matters if the team is doing a boli/sher as part of their performance. If they want to present it, it should be judged and critiqued as hard as the dancing

I guess, but if I was a judge I would not decrease points for shitty pronunciation. A good faith effort to do a sher is fine by me. It's a dance competition not a linguistics competition. As long as delivery is smooth enough and the person does not forget...it's not an issue to me. I commend teams for trying on the sher, but dancing should still get strict scrutiny. I understand it is part of the overall package, but to take points off because someone is not pronouncing right seems too orthodox. We used to have joey zuniga do our sher, if someone took points off for his pronounciation, i would think they were fools.

No one gives a team a pass on a bad mix or bad outfits. I don't see how a bad intro sher is any different, it takes away from the presentation of the routine.

Every rubric I have seen has a category for "opening presentation" which includes the sher/singing. If the person is not pronouncing the words correctly they should absolutely be marked down for poor presentation. It automatically signals to me that the team is neglecting a part of their routine which may be the most important (the intro). A team is judged as soon as the person starts a sher/starts singing, so they should definitely be marked down if they are doing a poor job.

 

[Sue Sylvester]

I would be a terrible judge. I get too easily distracted by pretty girls. Bhangra Empire <3

 

[faizan]

Bad pronunciation should not mean ur doing a poor job, not to me at least...if a team has a non punjabi doing the sher his good faith effort to pronounce is enough for me, i appreciate the attempt...dude is trying And honoring the language, to dock him would be way too rediculous....same would apply to a punjabi...its a dance competition.

 

[Avneet]

So let's say there was just one judge who is fluent in Punjabi- would the other judges look to that judge at the end of every routine to get the green light that all songs were appropriate and all gimmicks based on songs and steps based on lyrics in the routine were relevant? And based on what the Punjabi judge says, will the others adjust their scores if they missed some elements due to a language barrier? Just curious how that One Punjabi speaking judge would be utilized. To that point, if most people here don't think everyone judging needs to speak and understand Punjabi, I'd say that at least majority of the panel should. One is far too less.

And to the point of hometown advantage- let's use APD/KJ as an example again, and Bruin 2011. True, people really did react to Yaar Anmulle- I'd like to think it was because of the song and the meaning behind it, but they did also do that famous huddle with their fists up showing their allegiance to their brotherhood. So I don't know, the crowd reaction could go either way- song or the "KJ pose" itself. With that said, the way the crowd was going bonkers over KJ/APD in general, they could have played duck duck goose the entire routine and the crowd would has lost their minds. This team had that crowd in their hands from before the show even began. On the flip, AEG was introduced with a warm reception, not too much cheering... by the end of the routine they WON the crowd's support. However, in their little flute gimmick during jhummer, the initial cheering came when the crowd saw two girls come out and then pretty much stopped. I think the song and the point of the gimmick was lost amongst most of the crowd though. They couldn’t even tell what was being handed out until maybe the way end, or when they asked someone, but had they known the song was about a guy playing a tune (The Bruin crowd for the most part is NOT Punjabi speaking lol) they would have figured "Oh, flutes, how sweet" and probably given a better reaction to the gimmick, but all in all it was forgotten. Most people remembered the lasers and stuff, but something sweet and simple that was also very clever and relevant to the song didnt get too much credit. I believe MOST of the judging panel was Punjabi speaking and I am sure they picked up on it, but had they not been the point could very well have been missed, just like the crowd missed it, and seen as a "whatever gimmick" and that would be a little unfortunate, don't you think?

 

[faizan]

avneet, you're right...punjabi fluency is key and the majority of any judging panel, if not all of the panel should be fluent in punjabi. 1 judge is not enough. The examples you cited are perfectly on point...a judge going off crowd reaction alone to the flutes would have been completely clueless...

 

[Saab]

So let's say there was just one judge who is fluent in Punjabi- would the other judges look to that judge at the end of every routine to get the green light that all songs were appropriate and all gimmicks based on songs and steps based on lyrics in the routine were relevant? And based on what the Punjabi judge says, will the others adjust their scores if they missed some elements due to a language barrier? Just curious how that One Punjabi speaking judge would be utilized. To that point, if most people here don't think everyone judging needs to speak and understand Punjabi, I'd say that at least majority of the panel should. One is far too less.

And to the point of hometown advantage- let's use APD/KJ as an example again, and Bruin 2011. True, people really did react to Yaar Anmulle- I'd like to think it was because of the song and the meaning behind it, but they did also do that famous huddle with their fists up showing their allegiance to their brotherhood. So I don't know, the crowd reaction could go either way- song or the "KJ pose" itself. With that said, the way the crowd was going bonkers over KJ/APD in general, they could have played duck duck goose the entire routine and the crowd would has lost their minds. This team had that crowd in their hands from before the show even began. On the flip, AEG was introduced with a warm reception, not too much cheering... by the end of the routine they WON the crowd's support. However, in their little flute gimmick during jhummer, the initial cheering came when the crowd saw two girls come out and then pretty much stopped. I think the song and the point of the gimmick was lost amongst most of the crowd though. They couldn’t even tell what was being handed out until maybe the way end, or when they asked someone, but had they known the song was about a guy playing a tune (The Bruin crowd for the most part is NOT Punjabi speaking lol) they would have figured "Oh, flutes, how sweet" and probably given a better reaction to the gimmick, but all in all it was forgotten. Most people remembered the lasers and stuff, but something sweet and simple that was also very clever and relevant to the song didnt get too much credit. I believe MOST of the judging panel was Punjabi speaking and I am sure they picked up on it, but had they not been the point could very well have been missed, just like the crowd missed it, and seen as a "whatever gimmick" and that would be a little unfortunate, don't you think?

So what your saying is, that instead of judging KJ based off crowd reaction, that the judges judged AEG off of dancing and that is why the won first? Interesting.


Your proving a point. The understanding of punjabi in terms of the gimmick were irrelevant to the actual placing of the dance....If you play duck duck goose. I also dont think judges do this after every performance.

Family Guy - Kool Aid

 

[faizan]

nah, I think what she's saying is that: lets say kj and aeg were 2 points apart, and kj beat aeg. The non-punjabi speaking judge could be the reason behind the discrepancy if he was going off of crowd reaction.

 

[campy614]

So let's say there was just one judge who is fluent in Punjabi- would the other judges look to that judge at the end of every routine to get the green light that all songs were appropriate and all gimmicks based on songs and steps based on lyrics in the routine were relevant? And based on what the Punjabi judge says, will the others adjust their scores if they missed some elements due to a language barrier? Just curious how that One Punjabi speaking judge would be utilized. To that point, if most people here don't think everyone judging needs to speak and understand Punjabi, I'd say that at least majority of the panel should. One is far too less.

And to the point of hometown advantage- let's use APD/KJ as an example again, and Bruin 2011. True, people really did react to Yaar Anmulle- I'd like to think it was because of the song and the meaning behind it, but they did also do that famous huddle with their fists up showing their allegiance to their brotherhood. So I don't know, the crowd reaction could go either way- song or the "KJ pose" itself. With that said, the way the crowd was going bonkers over KJ/APD in general, they could have played duck duck goose the entire routine and the crowd would has lost their minds. This team had that crowd in their hands from before the show even began. On the flip, AEG was introduced with a warm reception, not too much cheering... by the end of the routine they WON the crowd's support. However, in their little flute gimmick during jhummer, the initial cheering came when the crowd saw two girls come out and then pretty much stopped. I think the song and the point of the gimmick was lost amongst most of the crowd though. They couldn’t even tell what was being handed out until maybe the way end, or when they asked someone, but had they known the song was about a guy playing a tune (The Bruin crowd for the most part is NOT Punjabi speaking lol) they would have figured "Oh, flutes, how sweet" and probably given a better reaction to the gimmick, but all in all it was forgotten. Most people remembered the lasers and stuff, but something sweet and simple that was also very clever and relevant to the song didnt get too much credit. I believe MOST of the judging panel was Punjabi speaking and I am sure they picked up on it, but had they not been the point could very well have been missed, just like the crowd missed it, and seen as a "whatever gimmick" and that would be a little unfortunate, don't you think?

^ Just felt like adding my two cents. I don't think the flute thing is something you really go crazy for. There's different kind of gimmicks that will bring out different kinds of reactions from the crowd. Some will bring out the loud "OMGGG THAT WAS AMAZING" yelling screaming reaction... others will bring out the more subtle "awww that was cute" reaction. The AEG flute thing brought out the latter. Even I got what they were doing and I understood why, but it didn't bring out the first reaction. So it's not that the gimmick was lost.

 

[faizan]

joe, you got what they were doing in the gimmick and you don't speak punjabi? JOE FOR JUDGE!!!

 

[J Hayer]

^ Just felt like adding my two cents. I don't think the flute thing is something you really go crazy for. There's different kind of gimmicks that will bring out different kinds of reactions from the crowd. Some will bring out the loud "OMGGG THAT WAS AMAZING" yelling screaming reaction... others will bring out the more subtle "awww that was cute" reaction. The AEG flute thing brought out the latter. Even I got what they were doing and I understood why, but it didn't bring out the first reaction. So it's not that the gimmick was lost.

that's interesting because the flute situation was definitely my favorite part, and if I'd been there -- I would've definitely stood and 'woo-ed.' but i'm also pretty good with understanding punjabi gimmicks/etc during performances.
---just thinking that say in toronto or even ny, it would've gotten a much bigger (warmer?) crowd reaction.

 

[voxanimus]

^ Just felt like adding my two cents. I don't think the flute thing is something you really go crazy for. There's different kind of gimmicks that will bring out different kinds of reactions from the crowd. Some will bring out the loud "OMGGG THAT WAS AMAZING" yelling screaming reaction... others will bring out the more subtle "awww that was cute" reaction. The AEG flute thing brought out the latter. Even I got what they were doing and I understood why, but it didn't bring out the first reaction. So it's not that the gimmick was lost.

that's interesting because the flute situation was definitely my favorite part, and if I'd been there -- I would've definitely stood and 'woo-ed.' but i'm also pretty good with understanding punjabi gimmicks/etc during performances.
---just thinking that say in toronto or even ny, it would've gotten a much bigger (warmer?) crowd reaction.

that goes back to the fact that for the most part, the Bruin crowd doesn't understand punjabi, whereas the toronto or ny crowds would be much more likely to.

 

[J Hayer]

^ Just felt like adding my two cents. I don't think the flute thing is something you really go crazy for. There's different kind of gimmicks that will bring out different kinds of reactions from the crowd. Some will bring out the loud "OMGGG THAT WAS AMAZING" yelling screaming reaction... others will bring out the more subtle "awww that was cute" reaction. The AEG flute thing brought out the latter. Even I got what they were doing and I understood why, but it didn't bring out the first reaction. So it's not that the gimmick was lost.

that's interesting because the flute situation was definitely my favorite part, and if I'd been there -- I would've definitely stood and 'woo-ed.' but i'm also pretty good with understanding punjabi gimmicks/etc during performances.
---just thinking that say in toronto or even ny, it would've gotten a much bigger (warmer?) crowd reaction.

that goes back to the fact that for the most part, the Bruin crowd doesn't understand punjabi, whereas the toronto or ny crowds would be much more likely to.

yeah, i was going more for it being a great part of the segment and their best gimmick (IMO); it was also something someone more intune to the culture would've definitely picked up on (whereas theres a greater chance someone not as versed in folk culture may not have found it to hit as hard)

 

[sulmoney]

oh hey, ill judge

 

[voxanimus]

oh hey, ill judge

SMD? i'm pretty sure you count as affiliated with them

 

[Vijay]

oh hey, ill judge

SMD? i'm pretty sure you count as affiliated with them

shove it. sulmoney for prez

 

[campy614]

^ Just felt like adding my two cents. I don't think the flute thing is something you really go crazy for. There's different kind of gimmicks that will bring out different kinds of reactions from the crowd. Some will bring out the loud "OMGGG THAT WAS AMAZING" yelling screaming reaction... others will bring out the more subtle "awww that was cute" reaction. The AEG flute thing brought out the latter. Even I got what they were doing and I understood why, but it didn't bring out the first reaction. So it's not that the gimmick was lost.

that's interesting because the flute situation was definitely my favorite part, and if I'd been there -- I would've definitely stood and 'woo-ed.' but i'm also pretty good with understanding punjabi gimmicks/etc during performances.
---just thinking that say in toronto or even ny, it would've gotten a much bigger (warmer?) crowd reaction.

that goes back to the fact that for the most part, the Bruin crowd doesn't understand punjabi, whereas the toronto or ny crowds would be much more likely to.

yeah, i was going more for it being a great part of the segment and their best gimmick (IMO); it was also something someone more intune to the culture would've definitely picked up on (whereas theres a greater chance someone not as versed in folk culture may not have found it to hit as hard)

I'm not trying to insult any of you when I say this, but do you people NOT READ?

I said, in my post, that the flute thing-although very cute and a good gimmick-doesn't bring about a LOUD crowd response in general. There's different kinds of gimmicks that bring out different kinds of reactions.
A) Not every gimmick will bring out a loud "WOOOOOO" from a crowd. Also, just because a gimmick doesn't receive a loud crowd reaction-that doesn't mean that the crowd didn't receive it well. You need to factor in what type of gimmick you are doing.
B) But the summation of all the "aww that was really cute" and "wooooo"s during the performance WILL factor into the crowd reaction at the end.
C) Just because you "WOOOOO" doesn't mean the rest of the crowd will do the same.
D) Have you every performed in Toronto and/or New York? Bindrakhia himself could be brought back up from the dead and do dhamaal front and center, and audiences in both areas will not be impressed at all.