Dasam Granth Debate

[JasBains]

http://www.thestar.com/news/insight/article/793458--did-guru-gobind-singh-promote-group-sex

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/789860--prominent-sikh-lawyer-injured-in-brawl-outside-temple

Can anybody that has some more knowledge on this or can make something out from the articles explain what's going on with this whole debate thing. A lawyer, who's also the president of one of the gurdwaras here in Toronto got stabbed by a dude with a kirpan outside the gurdwara and beaten because he invited Darshan Singh to come and talk at the gurdwara. What's the deal with that? There was a huge protest and all and apparently Darshan Singhs been banned as a Sikh in many places in India and around the world.

 

[Gabru13]

Bhai Joginder Singh Riaar - Guru Maneyo Granth

 

[Gabru13]

Guru Maneyo Granth !!!!!!

 

[Amanpaul]

some people really need to think with their brains.... they hear that Guru Gobind Singh ji wrote the dasam granth and think "oh well if they wrote it, we cant ignore it, we must accept it, it was written by the Guru afterall...."
Instead of going along with it, question it....think for 2 seconds....could he have written such things? NO. It contradicts all of the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib. It reminds me of the claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji had 3 wives....a thought that many believe to be true, and dont question its credibility because again "they were the Guru, they must've been right in doing so." Wrong again. It's another common misconception.

 

[H.S.]

Darshan singh has been excommunicated by the SGPC and isn't allowed at any sikh events, gurdawaras, etc because he believes the Dasam Granth wasnt written by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. There is a split within the community on the Dasam Granth, if you believe it or if you dont. Some people, including Darshan Singh, believe the Dasam granth promotes sexual promiscuity, degrades women and also encourages use of intoxicants. The other half are offended that Darshan singh would say negative things about the Dasam Granth b/c they believe it is a compilation of all the gurus teachings.

Blah blah blah


Religion isnt a group experience, it isnt a community experience...........it is a one on one experience with yourself. I recommend that before anyone picks sides, to read the Dasam Granth yourself and think how it relates to you and your interpretation of Bani. If it works, it works. If it doesnt, it doesnt.


Kirpans need to get banned. Our community can barely wash our own ass, we dont deserve the privilage of wearing the Kakkars with pride if we dont fully understand the importance of them.

 

[Gabru13]

feel so embarrassed being a sikh when i hear thing like that, fights at gurudwara saab,

 

[H.S.]

feel so embarrassed being a sikh when i hear thing like that, fights at gurudwara saab,

Sikhi is a personal thing. You can feel embarrassed for that specific person BUT someone elses actions shouldnt make you feel embarrassed for being a Sikh in general.


Knowledge is power homie...........the strength in bani surpasses anyones actions.

 

[Gabru13]

thxx H.S , lets hope those ppl will learn something out of it too

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

There has been a debate for a long time about if Guru Gobind Singh wrote the Dasam Granth. I think sometime at the turn of the 20th century the Akal Takht called a bunch of scholars together and after going through a few hundred different manuscripts the majority of them agreed that it was authentic and written by Guru Gobind Singh. Since then the SPGC did some conference about it too back in the day and they agreed as well. I guess it depends on how a person reads it, there are passages that make you wonder if they are authentic but then many other parts seem like they would fit Guru Gobind Singh's writing.

Many Sikhs just like in any other religion are very defensive of their religion. Many of them refuse to question anything they are told or to listen to the other side with an open mind. Nothing stirrs up human emotion more than religious sentiment so even if someone is criticizing without malice they will be attacked for it. Even people like Professor Darshan Singh who is a former Jathedar can get excommunicated over it.

Anything you find regarding the authenticity of the Dasam Granth is usually really biased, I haven't been able to find many good papers on the debate and points. Anyone know of anything?

 

[DjDhol-E]

basically this is whats happening:

pro-dasam granth people:
-believe that since guru gobind singh ji wrote the dasam granth, that we should follow his teaches.

anti-dasam granth people:
- also known as kala-afghani organization (wat kind of name is kala-afghani and what does it mean LOL) believe that some of the teachings in the dasam granth do not relate to ANY of the gurus previous teachings as for sex, women and drugs are mentioned or "HINTED" keyword hinted in the dasam granth which makes them believe that SOMEONE else wrote or added those sections into the dasam granth on purpose.

so i was reading a translated section of the dasam granth and it talked about a women cheating on her husband with two males and while reading the section i thought to myself that why would guru gobind singh ji write this? and from doing some research, its BELIEVED that guru gobind singh ji wrote this as a "STORY" to explain to people the bad that occurs and was hinting this story to a fellow raja whos wife was cheating on him. is this true? i dont know i wasnt there and i doubt we will ever know forsure. but you can follow up on this or read what i read at : http://www.dasamgranthexposed.com/Dasam%20Granth%27s%20Adult%20Section.htm

or read the dasam granth in english at : English Translation of Chritropakhyaan From Dasam Granth Vol-1

 

[Ashveer]

FYI, anti-dasam granth people aren't just supporters of Kala Afghana or Darshan Singh supporters...
Other parts of the Dasam Granth that people take issue with are the fact that in the writings, 'Guru Gobind' says that he is descended from Rama, and there is a retelling of the Ramayan (pretty close to the Valmiki version). I haven't read the entire thing, however, so I don't know if I can make a judgement, but importantly the dasam granth was not compiled or instated by Guru Gobind Singh.

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

^^That part always struck me as stuff added by others. I doubt Guru Gobind Singh would need to hype himself up as a descendant of an avatar of Vishnu. More likely some of his followers propagated the story.

 

[Ashveer]

I just took a quick look through the text, and found this 'lil ditty:

Dohira
‘I had thrust my tongue in the vagina of the mare for a hundred times,‘Then, listen hakim, my curse was eliminated immediately.’(29)
Chaupaee
The hakim wanted to try by himself, and thrust his tongue in themare’s vagma.He (Shah’s son) announced, get stuck, it was caught there and a greatfunwas ensued.(30)He (Shah’s son) brought them to display in the village (where allpeople were already stuck).Every body requested hakim, ‘Please imply some antidote to release...

I think this is where I drop the bhul chuk maaf bit.

 

[Sher]

anti-dasam granth people:
- also known as kala-afghani organization (wat kind of name is kala-afghani and what does it mean LOL) believe that some of the

Its actually Kala Afghana, and that just referring to one of the main voices (Gurbaksh Singh Kala Afghana) against the Dasam Granth. He has a history of writing alot of controversial articles/ books about how Sikhi today is not nearly the same as Sikhi in the Gurus' time.

Regardless of whether or not somebody believes in the Dasam Granth, I don't see how anyone can elevate it to the same level as Guru Granth Sahib and I find this a bit disturbing. Guru Gobind Singh is the one that passed over Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib, so why would he want us to put Dasam Granth on the same level?

I know nobody on this thread has said anything about the Dasam Granth being elevated so high, but it definitely does happen. In fact, Akhand Paths (which are also controversial) from the Dasam Granth are actually alot more expensive than Akhand Paths from the actual Guru Granth Sahib in many gurdwaras in India.

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

I just took a quick look through the text, and found this 'lil ditty:

Dohira
‘I had thrust my tongue in the vagina of the mare for a hundred times,‘Then, listen hakim, my curse was eliminated immediately.’(29)
Chaupaee
The hakim wanted to try by himself, and thrust his tongue in themare’s vagma.He (Shah’s son) announced, get stuck, it was caught there and a greatfunwas ensued.(30)He (Shah’s son) brought them to display in the village (where allpeople were already stuck).Every body requested hakim, ‘Please imply some antidote to release...

I think this is where I drop the bhul chuk maaf bit.

lololoolololol

this reminds me when as a kid i used to bring up all the weird parts of the bible where daughters were getting their dad drunk to have sex with him. the pastor always hated answering my questions.

 

[Gurbir23]

does anyone remember that brawl at mayfield gurdwara (brampton)? it was actually on youtube for a while

 

[JasBains]

does anyone remember that brawl at mayfield gurdwara (brampton)? it was actually on youtube for a while

I do, it's still up there man. Take in at about :36 how they start swearing and all and it just gets worse from there:
KHALISTANI SIKHS FIGHTING WITH TRUE INDIAN SIKHS IN GURDWARA SAHIB

 

[Varun]

“Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.”- Gautam Buddha

its easier to discuss and fight over spiritual controversies...than to actually practice spirituality itself.