do you think its disrespectful to have a khanda/ik onkar tattood on you?

[Meistro]

you kinda missed the whole identity vs symbol point i was trying to make shanjeet.

No, I got your point. I just don't agree. The accessories that you labelled as sikh identity ARE symbols. I can call myself a sikh, but I dont have uncut hair, I don't wear a kara, I don't wear a kashera, I don't wear a dasthar, I eat meat, I occasionally drink alcohol, but I also can say that I otherwise live by the teachings. Im a good person, my heart is pure, I remember God's name, I do good deeds. Religion is really that simple. It is just expressed differently throughout. If I have built my INNER faith and committed myself, I don't have to go to the extreme and display the symbols which you are saying are the sikh identity. It doesn't make me any less of a sikh. Sure, if you keep long hair, you have a beard, you wear a dasthar, you wear a kara, and kashera those are "trademarks", if you will, of a sikh. Are they necessary in this day and age? I don't think so. I would say it is more or less an option. No offense to those of you who do keep your hair, wear a dasthar, keep your beards, etc, more power to you. If I've offended anyone with my opinions I apologize, but I really believe that going to such extremes is unnecessary as long as the goal is achieved. Everyone is going to have their own interpretation of the teachings.

 

[Pooja]

If you are going to visibly show some symbol of your religion (whether it be an attribute like uncut hair, an accessory i.e. a kirpan, or a tattoo), you must hold yourself to a higher standard to follow the faith that you are putting on display (whether for your own strength of character to not be a hypocrite, or because now you are a representative of your faith in this foreign land).

agreed here.

In terms of the religion discussion, I believe it to be a way of life, a guide per se. That guide is open to interpretation. Some may argue it to be a conservative interpretation and some may say it should be a liberal interpretation. Religion is a very personal thing (although it seems so commercialized today don't you think?) and how one chooses to follow the path is really up to oneself...yes there are the obvious things as in doing good karma and following the notion of ahimsa as well as being a general 'good' human being....but how one chooses to be one with the Lord is really up to you...

 

[HarmanToor]

seen a lot of people with khandas on their arms, legs. ect. and ik onkars.

so why do a lot of people say its disrespectful?


inform me, while i make some aloo parontayyyyy.

I dont find it disrespectful because I dont really care what other people think or do.. but when you meet people who have tattoos of Khandas/Ik Onkars n such all over there body who also drink, eat meat, get in to trouble n all that.. its kind of a misrepresentation of Sikhism and Khalsa.. is it not :S? I mean when people who don't know what the Khanda represents see it tattoo'ed on bad people and troublemakers.. their going to assume right away that its some sort of gang symbol or something far far away from what it really is.

 

[kamdeol]

I can call myself a sikh, but I dont have uncut hair, I don't wear a kara, I don't wear a kashera, I don't wear a dasthar, I eat meat, I occasionally drink alcohol, but I also can say that I otherwise live by the teachings. Im a good person, my heart is pure, I remember God's name, I do good deeds. Religion is really that simple. It is just expressed differently throughout. If I have built my INNER faith and committed myself, I don't have to go to the extreme and display the symbols which you are saying are the sikh identity.

I have to say +1 to that and to what pooja said as well, religion is a very personal thing for those that choose to follow any religion, but i also feel like a lot of respect is due to those that follow the 5 k's and the rest of the "guidelines" set for the khalsa. you should only follow them when you truly understand and believe in why the guideline's were set, and when you understand it and accept it then I feel like it only makes sense for someone that is really religious to stay committed and follow all the set rules.

back to the tattoos thing, are there any people here who do have khanda/ik onkar tattoos? i kinda wanna know why they got them, and how they feel about what we have been talking about

 

[MundeNyDe]

-____-

 

[ENVY BANG-RUH]

I have a tattoo, I'm sure many of you saw it during the thread about the 1984 anniversary. I had gotten that tattoo for a distinct reason, to remind me each and everyday, what all the shaheeds went through, to fight for sikhi to save the akal takht, and also to remind me of all of those individuals who were killed during the massacre, all sikhi individuals and those of hindu faith that were killed by fellow hindu's for trying to help their sikhi friends, because they didnt believe in what the government was doing. I have this symbol on my arm to remind me of this everyday, to remind me to fight for what's right, and also to remind me, help others, ALL OTHERS, just as those hindu individuals helped our sikhi brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, aunts and uncles.



So i feel if a person has a symbolic tattoo, get it for a respectful reason, to remind you about something in ure past or your cultures past or your faith's past. Dont get a Khanda tattoo just to have a tattoo, or to have it be a symbol to represent your gang (that i believe is disrespectful). But as long as you wear it for the right reasons. I'm all for it.


side note: as i opened this thread, i saw a banner ad for tattoos. thought it was funny.

 

[Ashveer]

you kinda missed the whole identity vs symbol point i was trying to make shanjeet.

Are they necessary in this day and age? I don't think so. I would say it is more or less an option. No offense to those of you who do keep your hair, wear a dasthar, keep your beards, etc, more power to you. If I've offended anyone with my opinions I apologize, but I really believe that going to such extremes is unnecessary as long as the goal is achieved.

I see the rationale behind that, but you're basically saying that Guru Gobind Singh only meant for his teachings to be contemporary for Northern India in a specific moment in time, and are picking and choosing what you feel is right about Sikhi. Nothing wrong with picking, but understand that from a mainstream Sikh perspective the goal in life is to become amritdhari and fall in love with the Guru, and one tenant of being amritdhari is keeping all 5 Ks. If that's not 'modern' enough, then that's just as good as saying 'yeah, I'm down for the Guru, but I don't like this shabad because it doesn't apply today. '

 

[NavDheri]

i skipped over some of the posts...but, correct me if im wrong, isn't it written that we shouldn't do anything to our body...like i mean: not to get any piercings, tattoos, or cut ones hair. I could be wrong but i think it is written somewhere that if your a true sikh you shouldn't do anything to your body.

Also, i've gotten a tattoo on my shoulder recently but i been thinking about getting a khanda along with the tattoo but at the same time i dont follow some of the teachings of sikhi so i never got it. I believe it is wrong to get a khanda on your body if your gonna end up doing some of the things that are forbidden in Sikhi. If your not going to wear a dastar (which is different from a pugh) or go out and intoxicate your body...then why get a symbol that goes against what your doing in your life.

 

[Jobanpreet]

if we call ourselves sikhs, then we have to figure out what we are sikhs of
we are sikhs of the guru
our gurus were the ten gurus that established our religion, and now eternally we are sikhs of the Guru Granth Sahib, and the Guru Khalsa Panth
these two gurus were given to us by Guru Gobind Singh.
the Panth has given us the Rahit maryada by which we are supp0sed to conduct our every day lives.
in that, it explicitly says no tatoos.
so now it`s up to us to decide do we want to listen to what the guru has said to us or no

 

[ENVY BANG-RUH]

Interesting article about tattoos in general. slide 18 was definitely something i didnt think ever happens.

http://www.webmd.com/skin-beauty/slideshow-before-you-tattoo

 

[JP]

a majority of people who get tats of khandas or ik onkars dont live up to the expectations that are associated with the symbols. they will drink, party, curse, etc.

definitely agree with this!
but at the same time, getting a symbol of your religion tattooed on you is a way to express your own personal faith in the religion, and if we stick with that state of mind, wouldn't simply wearing a karra or wearing a khanda around your neck (also a way to express your faith in the religion) and drinking/cussing/etc. be in the same category of wrong?

 

[HarmanSingh]

you kinda missed the whole identity vs symbol point i was trying to make shanjeet.

No, I got your point. I just don't agree. The accessories that you labelled as sikh identity ARE symbols. I can call myself a sikh, but I dont have uncut hair, I don't wear a kara, I don't wear a kashera, I don't wear a dasthar, I eat meat, I occasionally drink alcohol, but I also can say that I otherwise live by the teachings. Im a good person, my heart is pure, I remember God's name, I do good deeds. Religion is really that simple. It is just expressed differently throughout. If I have built my INNER faith and committed myself, I don't have to go to the extreme and display the symbols which you are saying are the sikh identity. It doesn't make me any less of a sikh. Sure, if you keep long hair, you have a beard, you wear a dasthar, you wear a kara, and kashera those are "trademarks", if you will, of a sikh. Are they necessary in this day and age? I don't think so. I would say it is more or less an option. No offense to those of you who do keep your hair, wear a dasthar, keep your beards, etc, more power to you. If I've offended anyone with my opinions I apologize, but I really believe that going to such extremes is unnecessary as long as the goal is achieved. Everyone is going to have their own interpretation of the teachings.

Meistro, your statements are contradictory. You cannot say you are a Sikh then at the same time say the Panj Kakkar are not necessary in todays times. I can make the argument they are MORE important now than ever. If you believe 100% and truly in the Gurus’ teachings you submit yourself to those teachings and do not skew them or pick and choose certain things. When you begin to manipulate Sikhi and decide you know better than what is written in the Guru Granth Sahib you risk changing the entire essence of the faith into something else. It is like when Muslim Extremists pick 1 or 2 lines out of the Quran and manipulate them to become suicide bombers or Christians take 1 line about gay marriage from the Bible to make that seem like the only thing in the Bible that matters. Sorry, but I think the Gurus knew what they were talking about more than me and I wouldn’t sit here in 2009 thinking I somehow know better.

It is not an “option” to honor the 5 Ks if you are a Sikh. It is a requirement. And no, this is not a matter of personal interpretation…it is what Guru Gobind Singh Ji required of the Khalsa Panth on Vaisakhi day 1699.

 

[Jagga]

The tat should mean sumtin to u....that goes with any tat...if u feel gettin the khanda makes u feel closer to sikhism by all means get it...but don't go out on friday night patti and decide to get it...i say its on ur body u shud b able to do wat u like wit it just dont abuse with phudu tats

 

[Jeeti]

My question to those people is why not get a culturally affiliated tat instead of a religiously affiliated one? Clearly, if you drink, curse, etc..you are not a devout Sikh and should not be wearing a tattoo which is the symbol of all symbols for the Sikh religion. Why not get a tattoo with a lion that says sher punjabi or something? I'm all for that, I think everyone here would be ok with that...

Also, within the scripture, as someone stated (thank you for enlightening me), there are no tattoos allowed...so this argument is fundamentally flawed. To have a tattoo is to already be defying the religion, and as such..the argument should stop there.......having any kind of a tattoo, let alone a religiously symbolic one, is misrepresenting the religion PERIOD. (no other attachments needed).

 

[KaraN]

[
Im a good person, my heart is pure, I remember God's name, I do good deeds. Religion is really that simple. It is just expressed differently throughout. If I have built my INNER faith and committed myself, I don't have to go to the extreme and display the symbols which you are saying are the sikh identity.

Couldnt Agree to it more....and if u guys want to get legit Tattoo go to my man Anil Gupta tell him Karan sent u

 

[Jeeti]

[
Im a good person, my heart is pure, I remember God's name, I do good deeds. Religion is really that simple. It is just expressed differently throughout. If I have built my INNER faith and committed myself, I don't have to go to the extreme and display the symbols which you are saying are the sikh identity.

Couldnt Agree to it more....and if u guys want to get legit Tattoo go to my man Anil Gupta tell him Karan sent u

Every religion is an introspective journey.. there is no question...but as Harman states, one can't identify themselves truly as Sikh without the 5 K's. I consider myself loosely Sikh, but spiritual nonetheless. Meistro, although no one will question your faith to Sikhi, you can't truly identify yourself as Sikh unless you keep the 5 K's. I am the last to take a conservative view on the topic, but this time...I am gonna have to agree completely with Harman. On top of that, tying it into the actual discussion, the wearing of the Khanda as a tattoo (which I mentioned earlier defies the religion in the first place), is directly displaying the symbol of the 5 K's, and is therefore a blatant misrepresentation, which any Sikh, however strict or loosely based, should be in agreement.

My opinion and outlook on this has rapidly changed due to people's posts since the beginning of this discussion. This forum has served its purpose for me once again.

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

It is not an “option” to honor the 5 Ks if you are a Sikh. It is a requirement. And no, this is not a matter of personal interpretation…it is what Guru Gobind Singh Ji required of the Khalsa Panth on Vaisakhi day 1699.

Not to go off topic buttttt...throughout Sikh history and up until recently though a non Khalsa could identify as a Sikh as much as anyone. The identity of a Sikh was not inherantly tied to the unshorn hair and the other 4 kakkar.

My question to those people is why not get a culturally affiliated tat instead of a religiously affiliated one? Clearly, if you drink, curse, etc..you are not a devout Sikh and should not be wearing a tattoo which is the symbol of all symbols for the Sikh religion. Why not get a tattoo with a lion that says sher punjabi or something? I'm all for that, I think everyone here would be ok with that...

Also, within the scripture, as someone stated (thank you for enlightening me), there are no tattoos allowed...so this argument is fundamentally flawed. To have a tattoo is to already be defying the religion, and as such..the argument should stop there.......having any kind of a tattoo, let alone a religiously symbolic one, is misrepresenting the religion PERIOD. (no other attachments needed).

Punjabi culture and Sikhism are intertwined so the less educated and careless among us will confuse the two. If someone can correct me I think it is specifically the Rehat Maryada that bans alterations of the bodies like tattoos and piercings?

 

[Meistro]

Meistro, although no one will question your faith to Sikhi, you can't truly identify yourself as Sikh unless you keep the 5 K's.

My initial post states this. I wrote "if you keep long hair, you have a beard, you wear a dasthar, you wear a kara, and kashera those are "trademarks", if you will, of a sikh."

And harman, lol , I knew you were gonna have something to say about my post. Clearly, I find spirituality much more important than appearance when it comes to religion. I believe you took my statements to an extreme. I didn't say anything about skewing what the guru taught is people do in Christianity or islam as you mentioned. Choosing keep your hair and wearing a dasthar are personal preferences. If you really want to follow the Guru's teachings, don't committ Kaam, krodh, lo mo, hunkaar. Don't do chuut, chori, chugliyaan, etc. THOSE are Guru's teachings. yeah, I know of people who have "submitted" themselves and kept their hair and wear a dasthar, and they appear to be committed to their faith, but they are not. I won't go into details with that one.

Appearance is only ONE aspect of the ENTIRE religion. For those of you who have mentioned "picking and choosing", its not really so much that. If I was picking and choosing, I would say, Ok im not going to steal, but Im going to lie. Im not going to committ adultry but talk badly about people . The "im down with the Guru, but that shabad doesn't apply" analogy is quite invalid. Choosing to attain the proper appearance for sikhi and "not being down with a shabad" are two totally different things. The former only pertains to one's appearance. The latter is due to LACK of spirituality. If my post was read carefully I basically implied that religion is open to one's own interpretation to a certain degree (while not skewing Guru Ji's teachings) and to reach a higher level of spirituality. So "choosing" which shabad applies today is kind of a nonsense statement with respect to what my opinions were.

 

[Ashveer]

Meistro, although no one will question your faith to Sikhi, you can't truly identify yourself as Sikh unless you keep the 5 K's.

My initial post states this. I wrote "if you keep long hair, you have a beard, you wear a dasthar, you wear a kara, and kashera those are "trademarks", if you will, of a sikh."

And harman, lol , I knew you were gonna have something to say about my post. Clearly, I find spirituality much more important than appearance when it comes to religion. I believe you took my statements to an extreme. I didn't say anything about skewing what the guru taught is people do in Christianity or islam as you mentioned. Choosing keep your hair and wearing a dasthar are personal preferences. If you really want to follow the Guru's teachings, don't committ Kaam, krodh, lo mo, hunkaar. Don't do chuut, chori, chugliyaan, etc. THOSE are Guru's teachings. yeah, I know of people who have "submitted" themselves and kept their hair and wear a dasthar, and they appear to be committed to their faith, but they are not. I won't go into details with that one.

Appearance is only ONE aspect of the ENTIRE religion. For those of you who have mentioned "picking and choosing", its not really so much that. If I was picking and choosing, I would say, Ok im not going to steal, but Im going to lie. Im not going to committ adultry but talk badly about people . The "im down with the Guru, but that shabad doesn't apply" analogy is quite invalid. Choosing to attain the proper appearance for sikhi and "not being down with a shabad" are two totally different things. The former only pertains to one's appearance. The latter is due to LACK of spirituality. If my post was read carefully I basically implied that religion is open to one's own interpretation to a certain degree (while not skewing Guru Ji's teachings) and to reach a higher level of spirituality. So "choosing" which shabad applies today is kind of a nonsense statement with respect to what my opinions were.

Quite simply, the 5k's are one of the Gurus teachings. You don't think they apply in this day and age, and don't agree with their utility. So you disagree, and are picking and choosing what you subscribe to. Not a problem, so many people do it, but like it was said before, its contradictory. The appearance isn't some superficial requirement floating in space, its integral to Sikh identity and theology and is located towards the center of Sikhi rather than its periphery. Choosing not to wear the 5ks is one thing, saying that you don't agree is another.

 

[Pooja]

Quite simply, the 5k's are one of the Gurus teachings. You don't think they apply in this day and age, and don't agree with their utility. So you disagree, and are picking and choosing what you subscribe to. Not a problem, so many people do it, but like it was said before, its contradictory. The appearance isn't some superficial requirement floating in space, its integral to Sikh identity and theology and is located towards the center of Sikhi rather than its periphery. Choosing not to wear the 5ks is one thing, saying that you don't agree is another.

I understand the point you are trying to convey here, but if I recall you do not wear a dastaar, and that too is an implication that you are choosing what you would like to follow in the teachings of Sikhi...

Can you be a Sikh if you do not keep your kesh?

Although I am not a Sikh, along the lines of my philosophies that religion is personal, I think you can still be a Sikh, or as you mentioned, on the path to becoming amritdhari.

The fact is that people do pick/choose what they wish to take from the teachings...where do we draw the line as to what makes us completely a follower of that religion and what doesn't? For example, vegetarianism...some Amritdhari Sikhs believe that you should not eat meat, however, many people have mentioned that the gianis at their gurudwaras do eat meat...who decides for us which path is right? The same concept applying to Hinduism as well...are all meat eating Hindus not going to attain Moksha?