yomamajama
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For all Game of Thrones enthusiasts, and in anticipation for the highly awaited episode, which house do you support? Vote now
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Shahrukh said:In the end the battle of the bastards does not matter. The others *whites and white walkers are going to get past the wall and kill everyone, unless we find the second coming of Azor Ahai, who will wield the blade lightbringer, and end the long winter that is to come. Praise R'hillor, for the night is dark and full of terrors.
yomamajama said:Shahrukh said:In the end the battle of the bastards does not matter. The others *whites and white walkers are going to get past the wall and kill everyone, unless we find the second coming of Azor Ahai, who will wield the blade lightbringer, and end the long winter that is to come. Praise R'hillor, for the night is dark and full of terrors.
You make a good point, but I have to disagree. The battle is absolutely critical if the starks and the north are to survive. Remember, as Cateyln Stark and the books say, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." The reason why is that Starks are the only house known to defeat white walkers and protect the realm. In season 3, we know that Robb Stark was worried about this and talked privately with his trusted banner men and his mother about what would happen if he died in the war. He said Sansa couldnt be the heir, because she is married to a lannister (Tyrion at the time) and thus Lannisters would have control. He thought Arya, Bran, and Rikon were dead when Theon sacked Winterfell, and he hated Theon for burning down Winterfell. That leaves Jon Snow. Robb wanted Jon to be the next heir, and the only way to legitimize a bastard is through royal decree. Thus, even though we know Catelyn Stark disagreed heavily, Robb Stark did legitimize Jon as a stark, making him now Jon Stark.
Which brings me to your next point about Azor Ahai. I believe, based off Jon's resurrection and the fact that he has Targaryean blood, (Come on its pretty obvious) that Jon Snow is the second coming of Azor Ahai. We know this because the Red Priestess, Melisandre, saw Jon Snow at Castle Black "Through flames of the great red lord..." Azor Ahai, as you so greatly stated, who wielded his light bringer covered with flames, was created from star light and fire, elements that Melisandre used when resurrecting Jon Snow. Maybe I am wrong, but the evidence is there. Jon "Stark" was resurrected by elements Melisandre used when the elements were all put in a flame next to his dead body. This was a highly similar way in which Azor absorbed the elements of fire and star light from the red god to become the destroyer of the white walkers. Maybe what happened was Jon Snow/Stark was resurrected with Azor Ahai's soul now in him.
Also, Azor's sword was made of the same element that Jon had in his sword when he defeated the white walker general at Hardhome: Valeryian steel. Valeryian steal and dragon glass are two weapons used by Azor to kill white walkers, and Jon has both.
Adding it all together, his resurrection by the red priestess, the fact that he is now a stark, and that he has valeryian steel and dragon glass in his possession makes Jon Stark Azor Ahai.
What would be awesome now is if they introduced a Sardari House named House Singh that comes and fucks shit up and saves the Starks.
that was a good read and makes a lot of sense. Jon Snow/Stark + Khaleesi = own everything. It be cool if the dragons started listening to him.yomamajama said:Shahrukh said:In the end the battle of the bastards does not matter. The others *whites and white walkers are going to get past the wall and kill everyone, unless we find the second coming of Azor Ahai, who will wield the blade lightbringer, and end the long winter that is to come. Praise R'hillor, for the night is dark and full of terrors.
You make a good point, but I have to disagree. The battle is absolutely critical if the starks and the north are to survive. Remember, as Cateyln Stark and the books say, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." The reason why is that Starks are the only house known to defeat white walkers and protect the realm. In season 3, we know that Robb Stark was worried about this and talked privately with his trusted banner men and his mother about what would happen if he died in the war. He said Sansa couldnt be the heir, because she is married to a lannister (Tyrion at the time) and thus Lannisters would have control. He thought Arya, Bran, and Rikon were dead when Theon sacked Winterfell, and he hated Theon for burning down Winterfell. That leaves Jon Snow. Robb wanted Jon to be the next heir, and the only way to legitimize a bastard is through royal decree. Thus, even though we know Catelyn Stark disagreed heavily, Robb Stark did legitimize Jon as a stark, making him now Jon Stark.
Which brings me to your next point about Azor Ahai. I believe, based off Jon's resurrection and the fact that he has Targaryean blood, (Come on its pretty obvious) that Jon Snow is the second coming of Azor Ahai. We know this because the Red Priestess, Melisandre, saw Jon Snow at Castle Black "Through flames of the great red lord..." Azor Ahai, as you so greatly stated, who wielded his light bringer covered with flames, was created from star light and fire, elements that Melisandre used when resurrecting Jon Snow. Maybe I am wrong, but the evidence is there. Jon "Stark" was resurrected by elements Melisandre used when the elements were all put in a flame next to his dead body. This was a highly similar way in which Azor absorbed the elements of fire and star light from the red god to become the destroyer of the white walkers. Maybe what happened was Jon Snow/Stark was resurrected with Azor Ahai's soul now in him.
Also, Azor's sword was made of the same element that Jon had in his sword when he defeated the white walker general at Hardhome: Valeryian steel. Valeryian steal and dragon glass are two weapons used by Azor to kill white walkers, and Jon has both.
Adding it all together, his resurrection by the red priestess, the fact that he is now a stark, and that he has valeryian steel and dragon glass in his possession makes Jon Stark Azor Ahai.
What would be awesome now is if they introduced a Sardari House named House Singh that comes and fucks shit up and saves the Starks.
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I agree, to a degree. While it's better that Jon lead the army of the living against the army of the dead because he knows the threat better than the Boltons and their banner men, who do not realize and may be in denial that Winter Is Coming, the Battle of the Bastards will also basically decimate half the fighting forces that could have been used against the Others. If Bran's mark allows the Night King and the Others passage across the wall as it's insinuated and they do arrive shortly after what I'm presuming is Baelish and the Knights of The Vale coming to save Jon's ass after presumably Jon underestimates Ramsay (and his twentygoodmen) despite Sansa's warnings, the Others will be arriving to a North with a heavily weakened army. The battle is inevitable more because Jon, a bastard Nights Watch Lord Commander, abandoning his vows (death and resurrection are hearsay, which like dragons, no one believes it until they see it with their own eyes), now seemingly on the war path with an army of Wildlings (most the houses may not realize that Ramsay instigated Jon into coming to fight him via pink letter, they may think he's coming to ransack like Wildlings do). Unless The Others make a premature appearance, little can scare these Northern Houses into uniting with the Wildlings. The battle is definitely inevitable, but from a strategic point of a view, it will put the North at a handicap when The Others do show up.[/font]yomamajama said:[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]The battle is absolutely critical if the starks and the north are to survive.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]No, for a bunch of reasons. Catelyn does not believe that the Others even exist. Catelyn was not raised in the North - the stories would not have been that prevalent in the Riverlands. She even follows the Faith of the Seven - Ned even had a small sept built for her in Winterfell. Even Ned tells Catelyn that the Others, like the Children, have been dead for thousands of ages. Catelyn saying that there must be always a Stark in Winterfell isn't said because she thinks there is some mythical basis to it. To me, it seems like Catelyn said it because it's about preservation of family name and appearance to her. It's political and personal for her. She's not one to subscribe to a mythical theory like that.[/font]yomamajama said:[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Remember, as Cateyln Stark and the books say, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." The reason why is that Starks are the only house known to defeat white walkers and protect the realm.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]This was more about the succession of the Stark family name and the inheritance of Winterfell than anything about some offhanded remark about Stark always being in Winterfell and the White Walkers.[/font]yomamajama said:[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]In season 3, we know that Robb Stark was worried about this and talked privately with his trusted banner men and his mother about what would happen if he died in the war. He said Sansa couldnt be the heir, because she is married to a lannister (Tyrion at the time) and thus Lannisters would have control. He thought Arya, Bran, and Rikon were dead when Theon sacked Winterfell, and he hated Theon for burning down Winterfell. That leaves Jon Snow. Robb wanted Jon to be the next heir, and the only way to legitimize a bastard is through royal decree. Thus, even though we know Catelyn Stark disagreed heavily, Robb Stark did legitimize Jon as a stark, making him now Jon Stark.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I don't disagree with your point but I feel that Jon will never be truly labelled as Azor Ahai and defeat of the White Walkers will involve a variety of key individuals that could be identified as Azor Ahai in their own right. I hope GRRM continues to keep it open to interpretation, even to the conclusion of the novel. I do completely agree that The Song Of Ice And Fire is Jon, but I still have my own theories on who the singer of that song is. Melisandre's red gem did not glow during resurrection like it has done when The Lord Of Light has allowed her to perform other miracles so I'm not giving her all the credit yet.[/font]yomamajama said:[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Which brings me to your next point about Azor Ahai. I believe, based off Jon's resurrection and the fact that he has Targaryean blood, (Come on its pretty obvious) that Jon Snow is the second coming of Azor Ahai. We know this because the Red Priestess, Melisandre, saw Jon Snow at Castle Black "Through flames of the great red lord..." Azor Ahai, as you so greatly stated, who wielded his light bringer covered with flames, was created from star light and fire, elements that Melisandre used when resurrecting Jon Snow. Maybe I am wrong, but the evidence is there. Jon "Stark" was resurrected by elements Melisandre used when the elements were all put in a flame next to his dead body. This was a highly similar way in which Azor absorbed the elements of fire and star light from the red god to become the destroyer of the white walkers. Maybe what happened was Jon Snow/Stark was resurrected with Azor Ahai's soul now in him.[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]You're making some assumptions. There is no definite proof that Lightbringer was made with Valyrian Steel and Lightbringer is also suppose to radiate heat and we've yet to see a Valyrian Steel sword radiate heat.[/font]yomamajama said:[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Also, Azor's sword was made of the same element that Jon had in his sword when he defeated the white walker general at Hardhome: Valeryian steel. Valeryian steal and dragon glass are two weapons used by Azor to kill white walkers, and Jon has both. [/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]None of these things you list are evidence that Jon is Azor Ahai. There's nothing about Azor Ahai being a Stark or having Stark blood. He was just as much a Stark before as he was now and "KINGOFDANORTH decree" and laws of men doesn't make him anymore Stark in the eyes of magical prophecy. Plenty of individuals in the realm have Valyrian Steel swords and Jon did leave a bunch of dragonglass at Hardhome (oops!) and he is also not the only one that has risen from the dead. Sure, Jon's combined Stark and Targaryen blood gives him warging and dragon riding abilities (what's up Rhaegal) and he does seem like the Realm's best bet against The Others via hand to hand combat, but that doesn't guarantee to make him Azor Ahai. The evidence linking him to the prophecy of Melisandre that claims that 'Azor Ahai will be born amidst smoke and salt to wake the dragons out of stone when the red star bleeds and darkness gathers' is super weak at this point.[/font]yomamajama said:[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Adding it all together, his resurrection by the red priestess, the fact that he is now a stark, and that he has valeryian steel and dragon glass in his possession makes Jon Stark Azor Ahai. [/font]
Sue Sylvester said:I agree, to a degree. While it's better that Jon lead the army of the living against the army of the dead because he knows the threat better than the Boltons and their banner men, who do not realize and may be in denial that Winter Is Coming, the Battle of the Bastards will also basically decimate half the fighting forces that could have been used against the Others. If Bran's mark allows the Night King and the Others passage across the wall as it's insinuated and they do arrive shortly after what I'm presuming is Baelish and the Knights of The Vale coming to save Jon's ass after presumably Jon underestimates Ramsay (and his twentygoodmen) despite Sansa's warnings, the Others will be arriving to a North with a heavily weakened army. The battle is inevitable more because Jon, a bastard Nights Watch Lord Commander, abandoning his vows (death and resurrection are hearsay, which like dragons, no one believes it until they see it with their own eyes), now seemingly on the war path with an army of Wildlings (most the houses may not realize that Ramsay instigated Jon into coming to fight him via pink letter, they may think he's coming to ransack like Wildlings do). Unless The Others make a premature appearance, little can scare these Northern Houses into uniting with the Wildlings. The battle is definitely inevitable, but from a strategic point of a view, it will put the North at a handicap when The Others do show up.yomamajama said:The battle is absolutely critical if the starks and the north are to survive.
No, for a bunch of reasons. Catelyn does not believe that the Others even exist. Catelyn was not raised in the North - the stories would not have been that prevalent in the Riverlands. She even follows the Faith of the Seven - Ned even had a small sept built for her in Winterfell. Even Ned tells Catelyn that the Others, like the Children, have been dead for thousands of ages. Catelyn saying that there must be always a Stark in Winterfell isn't said because she thinks there is some mythical basis to it. To me, it seems like Catelyn said it because it's about preservation of family name and appearance to her. It's political and personal for her. She's not one to subscribe to a mythical theory like that.yomamajama said:Remember, as Cateyln Stark and the books say, "There must always be a Stark in Winterfell." The reason why is that Starks are the only house known to defeat white walkers and protect the realm.
The Starks are the only house to defeat the White Walkers? Nope. The Others were described to have been defeated by Azor Ahai. Bran The Builder, the founder of House Stark, built the Wall. Also, the Nights King was a a Nights Watch Commander who betrayed the Nights Watch for the Others and who was also a Stark. But Azor Ahai was not a Stark and there is no evidence that House Stark is the only house that is known to defeat the White Walkers and protect the realm.
Side note, often times, I've seen people associate the qualities of Ned in his later life, of being noble and honourable (when his family isn't at stake), to be representative of all Starks that ever lived. Not so. House Stark, was known to be harsh and do what it had to to survive the brutal Northern winters. Even one of the flashbacks that showed Rickard Stark shows him telling Ned that "If you must fight, win.". To me, Ned's nobility came more from him being ward to Jon Arryn whose House words are "As High As Honour", and it's inaccurate to assume all Starks were as noble as Ned.
This was more about the succession of the Stark family name and the inheritance of Winterfell than anything about some offhanded remark about Stark always being in Winterfell and the White Walkers.yomamajama said:In season 3, we know that Robb Stark was worried about this and talked privately with his trusted banner men and his mother about what would happen if he died in the war. He said Sansa couldnt be the heir, because she is married to a lannister (Tyrion at the time) and thus Lannisters would have control. He thought Arya, Bran, and Rikon were dead when Theon sacked Winterfell, and he hated Theon for burning down Winterfell. That leaves Jon Snow. Robb wanted Jon to be the next heir, and the only way to legitimize a bastard is through royal decree. Thus, even though we know Catelyn Stark disagreed heavily, Robb Stark did legitimize Jon as a stark, making him now Jon Stark.
I don't disagree with your point but I feel that Jon will never be truly labelled as Azor Ahai and defeat of the White Walkers will involve a variety of key individuals that could be identified as Azor Ahai in their own right. I hope GRRM continues to keep it open to interpretation, even to the conclusion of the novel. I do completely agree that The Song Of Ice And Fire is Jon, but I still have my own theories on who the singer of that song is. Melisandre's red gem did not glow during resurrection like it has done when The Lord Of Light has allowed her to perform other miracles so I'm not giving her all the credit yet.yomamajama said:Which brings me to your next point about Azor Ahai. I believe, based off Jon's resurrection and the fact that he has Targaryean blood, (Come on its pretty obvious) that Jon Snow is the second coming of Azor Ahai. We know this because the Red Priestess, Melisandre, saw Jon Snow at Castle Black "Through flames of the great red lord..." Azor Ahai, as you so greatly stated, who wielded his light bringer covered with flames, was created from star light and fire, elements that Melisandre used when resurrecting Jon Snow. Maybe I am wrong, but the evidence is there. Jon "Stark" was resurrected by elements Melisandre used when the elements were all put in a flame next to his dead body. This was a highly similar way in which Azor absorbed the elements of fire and star light from the red god to become the destroyer of the white walkers. Maybe what happened was Jon Snow/Stark was resurrected with Azor Ahai's soul now in him.
You're making some assumptions. There is no definite proof that Lightbringer was made with Valyrian Steel and Lightbringer is also suppose to radiate heat and we've yet to see a Valyrian Steel sword radiate heat.yomamajama said:Also, Azor's sword was made of the same element that Jon had in his sword when he defeated the white walker general at Hardhome: Valeryian steel. Valeryian steal and dragon glass are two weapons used by Azor to kill white walkers, and Jon has both.
None of these things you list are evidence that Jon is Azor Ahai. There's nothing about Azor Ahai being a Stark or having Stark blood. He was just as much a Stark before as he was now and "KINGOFDANORTH decree" and laws of men doesn't make him anymore Stark in the eyes of magical prophecy. Plenty of individuals in the realm have Valyrian Steel swords and Jon did leave a bunch of dragonglass at Hardhome (oops!) and he is also not the only one that has risen from the dead. Sure, Jon's combined Stark and Targaryen blood gives him warging and dragon riding abilities (what's up Rhaegal) and he does seem like the Realm's best bet against The Others via hand to hand combat, but that doesn't guarantee to make him Azor Ahai. The evidence linking him to the prophecy of Melisandre that claims that 'Azor Ahai will be born amidst smoke and salt to wake the dragons out of stone when the red star bleeds and darkness gathers' is super weak at this point.yomamajama said:Adding it all together, his resurrection by the red priestess, the fact that he is now a stark, and that he has valeryian steel and dragon glass in his possession makes Jon Stark Azor Ahai.
yomamajama said:Ill respond shortly, but cheers to the debate. I got some wild theories to respond with, but don't know what else to say without revealing spoilers.
(R + L = J)
yomamajama said:Last episode was awesome, and its good to see the Starks take back Winterfell. Now the question is can they hold it?
I am going on a limb and saying that Cersei will do something with the Wild Fire in kings landing... something explosive...which will cause massive devastation. Or she may do nothing.
I am hoping we see more into Bran's vision regarding the tower of joy, but it seems more and more like R + L = J.
I am still gathering my thoughts to respond to this Mr. Sue Sylvester's fine comments, but rest assure my theories will blows your guys' asses away.
yomamajama said:Last episode was awesome, and its good to see the Starks take back Winterfell. Now the question is can they hold it?
I am going on a limb and saying that Cersei will do something with the Wild Fire in kings landing... something explosive...which will cause massive devastation. Or she may do nothing.
I am hoping we see more into Bran's vision regarding the tower of joy, but it seems more and more like R + L = J.