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GM, Ford CEO's fly private jets to D.C.

Vick

Member
Messages
990
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html

The CEO's claim its for safety reasons and company protocol... Who would recognize these people anyways outside of Detroit? I sure as hell dont know what most auto company CEO's look like... Talk about streamlining your business practices while flying around in 30 million dollar jets that cost upwards of $100,000 to fly coast to coast... Is America really this stupid?
 

Saleem

Administrator
Staff member
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1,928
The Big 3 CEOs are basically holding America hostage, saying that they need taxpayer $$ otherwise they'll end up failing and take down the whole economy with them. But it's complete doublespeak to say youre as efficient as you can when you are dumping $250,000 for these guys to come to Washington DC, take out their tin cans, and pretend to be beggars.

For a great read by Mitt Romney (and I'm a Democrat!), an NYTimes op-ed: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=2&rss

Also a bit of humor:
 

Attachments

Summy

New Member
Messages
11
haha, you explained it to me.

That american education shinning through... ummm... Yeah, I read the article. Its not news, it happens everyday, every minute and will continue to happening.

OH MY GOD CEO'S ASKING FOR TAX PAYERS MONEY WHILE THEY THEMSELVES MAKE MILLIONS ... someone alert jesus.

Haha Vicks attempt at stepping his intellect up a level. Vick, Canadians slow? Awwwww look at the cute little PUPPY AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
 

pluthra

Member
Messages
296
in addition to this somewhat, just wondering do you think the Detroit 3 need a $25 billion loan? I kind of think that people at the moment are just over-panicking about the situation. Like everyone's so overtaken that they're barely taking some time to sit down and go through what possibilities they do have. Instead, it just seems like since the Detroit 3 is made out of normal people and normal people when faced with a scary situation want the fastest solution basically will do whatever they can. And that's how they seem to be acting. This is completely not a business look on the situation at all by evaluating costs and all (instead its just analyzing how people act in situations)....if any1 wud like to add in that other view that'd be great.

So, back to the question do they need the help or shud they take out time to evaluate their possibilities?
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
Parul said:
in addition to this somewhat, just wondering do you think the Detroit 3 need a $25 billion loan? I kind of think that people at the moment are just over-panicking about the situation. Like everyone's so overtaken that they're barely taking some time to sit down and go through what possibilities they do have. Instead, it just seems like since the Detroit 3 is made out of normal people and normal people when faced with a scary situation want the fastest solution basically will do whatever they can. And that's how they seem to be acting. This is completely not a business look on the situation at all by evaluating costs and all (instead its just analyzing how people act in situations)....if any1 wud like to add in that other view that'd be great.

So, back to the question do they need the help or shud they take out time to evaluate their possibilities?
It's not unnecessary panicking. Plants are closing (think how much it costs to close a plant - that's a last resort), every other person is laid off, pay cuts... And it trickles around to everyone in Michigan -- from the raw suppliers to the companies that service office coffee machines! Personally I know my dad works for a supplier and their business is down 45%. That's HUGE yo. I don't think it's the end of the world, but a bailout and some major changes need to happen. It's affecting your mom, my dad, our team...

THIS IS WHY WE GET PAID SH*T FOR GIGS..
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
Also, it's been a long time coming. This isn't like all of a sudden they're like oh shit we need bailout. Plants have been downsizing and laying off people for years now, sales have been dropping for years. The bailout isn't the fastest solution, I mean it's been a long time coming and now it's finally come to that.

I think it's just that things have been bad in Michigan for so long that we forgot about them (the layoffs, the down sales, the closings) and have gotten used to it. Maybe that's why it seems like "oh what they're going for a bailout now?"

Also yeah I think it is the Big 3's fault to a certain extent, but no one in Michigan wants to see them go down. It will hurt allllll of us...
 

Saleem

Administrator
Staff member
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1,928
Parul
Yes the situation is serious. But this is not just the credit crisis' fault. The Big 3 have stagnated for decades, valuing their loan and finance divisions over true engineering and making better cars. They made big heavy SUVs when it was nice and easy, and didn't look ahead. This is not a new thing for Detroit it goes back decades. Giving them money will only prolong the suffering and mean they will fail in 10 years. No bank will give them a loan because they are not profitable businesses. The credit crisis has made it worse because it's forced them to only loan to high-credit-score buyers, which is a very small pool, which makes them sell even fewer cars.

Read Romney's article http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/opinion/19romney.html?_r=2&rss, perhaps they should file Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection and take that time to RESTRUCTURE the organizations, the pensions, the union contracts, and everything else that is keeping them UNCOMPETITIVE with Toyota, Nissan, and others, who have thriving production plants in the US.

Mariam the fact that it's been a long time coming means that they needed to do a lot more than they've done to turn those ships around. The bureaucracy has remained.

The problem is now they have the US Economy held hostage. It's not the taxpayers' responsibility to shore up unprofitable businesses. But if we don't, who knows what will happen.
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
I agree it's their fault, I do. But I live in a metro area where literally everyone is connecting to and/or affected by the Big 3. I don't want to see them go down, no one Michigan does... Ya know?
 

Vick

Member
Messages
990
Let em die... No one drives those shitty ass american cars anyways... I mean damn, look at the cars Hyundai is pumping out right now, some of them look pretty damn nice... American cars have been at the bottom of the barrel in terms of quality for decades, let these piece of garbage companies die... Companies like Toyota have seen this coming for years, yet the heads in GM couldn't figure it out... Well, too bad for them...
 

Saleem

Administrator
Staff member
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1,928
Mariam said:
I agree it's their fault, I do. But I live in a metro area where literally everyone is connecting to and/or affected by the Big 3. I don't want to see them go down, no one Michigan does... Ya know?
I understand where you're coming from Mariam but does it mean taxpayers should give the Big 3 $50,000,000,000 beyond the $25,000,000,000 loan that was already given? What happens next year when they say they just need ONE MORE FIX?
 

pluthra

Member
Messages
296
now i'm not sayin its not a big issue (b/c this is a huge concern-the big 3 get shot down and in the next moment are what the detroit 3 now- thats def not a good name for us that we can't handle figuring out a solution for this problem and instead have to go beg the govt for help)

and saleem, I do think they need to take time out to restructure themselves...but imagine the headline "BIG 3 FILE FOR BANKRUPTCY" that's gonna tear up people here....u've basically shut down all of michigan with that headline and people are going to begin panicking and that wouldn't be good....how are you to make someone understand that filing ch 11 bankruptcy could potentially help the workers there? Btw that article points out some good arguements, like this 1:

"I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research ? on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like ? that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration."

I don't know if that will entirely benefit ford and GM but taking a step in this direction would be nice but then again people just want answers and they want them fast....I think this country is basically losing all its optimism and are focusing too much on what they can do immediately (if they rush a solution, I don't think it would help) they need to put a lot of consideration in how that solution can help in the long run. And the fact that every headline is basically about what are we to do now, rather than what can we do now is kind of sad (we do have minds, and we just have to figure out ways to put them to use and in order to do that they somewhat need to step away from the situation and observe because right now everyone's heads are overloaded with the problem)
 

[Sher] Imran

Member
Messages
213
I have nothing against Michigan (except that Tom Brady played in that state), but we need to let Detroit burn. The Det-3 have a horrendous business model, and its one that they have refused to change. Why else would they keep pumping out SUVs and other vehicles when the trend was pointing towards smaller/more efficient/green/reliable cars? I don't know if they have any financial analysts there, but someone missed something when GM posted something like a $40B loss last year. Theres a few things that I can't stand about the way that Ford/Chrysler/GM have been running their ships:

1) Inability to outsource manufacturing of parts and/or labor because of the auto workers union, which calls a strike every other day it seems
2) Great lack of foresight and refusal to react to current or hell, even projected, market trends
3) Employ a fixed-cost structure in one of the MOST regulated American industries (which are all regulated as it is), and do not have an alternative strategy for economic downturns (clearly)

Inability to outsource: These domestic auto companies get hamstrung because of the rules and regulations that business must follow in the U.S. If you brought up the idea of a labor union (similar to the UAW) in India, they'd probably laugh at you. Why? Because they'll do it for cheaper and half the bitching. I dont think Mahesh is going to give two sh!ts about getting his 2 15-minute breaks, a 30 minute lunch, and a 401k- he just wants to get paid so he can get his grub on. This is why, in my mind, outsourcing is brilliant- because you are doing the same work for a cheaper price. If we can look for deals on shoes/clothes/flights and go with the cheapest, why can't companies? (granted you're not using child labor) But I digress. Companies like the Det-3 are in a position where these unions won't let them go outside of our borders to manufacture. So they play it up in commercials as "built by the american spirit" or "made by americans for americans"... but all it does is screw them on the cost-side. I think if they had the ability to outsource, they could lower their labor costs, avoid a lot of regulations that domestic manufacturers would be subject to, and hell maybe even get better parts out of it.

Lack of foresight: Toyota hopped on the green trend fast and now has the leader in the Prius. Toyota is not pushing out SUVs or 40 ton trucks that can haul a small city out of quicksand. Toyota outsources for manufacturing. Toyota continues to improve its Camrys and Corollas, and if you notice, a lot of their cars LOOK like Lexus luxury vehicles. Toyota's cars are gas efficient and its parts are cheap and easy to find at any auto store. Toyota has a near 20% market share in the U.S. and virtually carries no debt and is sitting on a $20B cash reserve. The Det-3? GM and Ford had their debts rated as junk-bond status. They haven't picked up on the green movement like Toyota and Honda have. They keep pushing out the big cars and do not concentrate on fuel efficiency. I imagined the conversation about green cars went something like this:

GM research guy: Sir we have noticed that people are becoming more environmentally conscious and market research shows that we can greatly benefit financially if we start making our cars more fuel efficient and environmentally safe.

GM executive: LOL

Fixed-costs: GM has been notorious for its fixed costs, meaning when you are paying $20k for a car, included in that $20k is $1k for rent of a factory, $4k for Joe's health benefits, and $15k for the actual car itself. Since these costs are constant, GM needs to push out an assload of cars to stay above water. Then instead of trimming down the # of open factories, they keep them all open as much as they can. Are you serious? Instead of drastically closing down factories and creating a large ripple in the economy, why not cut down as you see necessary in the course of business? At least that way you'll give the workers enough time to re-assimilate themselves into the economy via another job. High five for the Det-3.

Filing for bankruptcy will be beneficial in the fact that for starters, we won't be dishing billions for a DOOMED business model. Also, other companies could pick up Det-3's assets and maybe make something better for the American consumer. What about consolidation? Combine Ford, GM, and Chrysler, create a shell company, combine assets and share debt, and for God's sake TRIM DOWN your car lines we don't need 620 models of the same crap. Why do i care if i get a Sebring or a LeSabre or an Escort if they are all in the same class? (i dont know if they are im just saying)

Det-3 is claiming it will depress the economy further if they are forced to go bankrupt. Granted, Det-3 and its subsidiaries' employees combined are probably over 1million, just a guess. That is a lot of workers to add to unemployed workforce, but they are very employable. You wanna talk about a real crisis, think what about happen if McDonalds went under- how many people would be unemployed? More than Det-3's I think. Plus all the 'slims would riot because we love those Filet-o-Fish sandwiches. See I even capitalized it because its that delicious.
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
We don't like the Big 3 either, but we need them. Think of it from human personal perspective, that's all. I agree with Vick and especially Imran, I really do. But at the end of the day I want to see the Big 3 saved. The economy around me depends on them, it affects me and Parul every day, month after month, and it hurts now and it will hurt worse if they go under... It's not fair to a city full of people to just say "let it burn", fuck the big 3, I mean come on, seriously dude :(
 

[Sher] Imran

Member
Messages
213
I understand the immediate impact would create a sort of an economic black hole, especially in the surrounding area. So many shops/cafes/diners that depend on these workers (ie Flint, MI) would be shutdown, and it would start to reverberate throughout the state/region/country. The workers didn't do anything, and they don't deserve it. All they do is check in, work hard, and go home. Its the damn executives and their shortsightedness and stubbornness that got us here. If they were victims of the economy, ok i'd understand. But they are doing things that are screwing themselves over. So when i say let it burn, i'm just referring to the 3 big companies that are centered there. Its just that i don't ever see us getting bailed out if our parents' business ever goes down the toilet. If I have to borrow money from you, I'm not going to come to your house in a Ferrari whilie wearing a Versace suit with a tie made of solid gold. This whole story just seems really odd to me, because the Det-3's downward spiral is a result of many years of shabby leadership. I love em because they keep cities employed, but a lot of times corporate greed outshines em all. It sucks to see innocent people suffer because of it. Just like how the Fed was wrong about the original bailout helping us out, I see this working the same way. Sigh
 

Saleem

Administrator
Staff member
Messages
1,928
Listen we all saw the S&P drop 7% today alone and down FIFTY PERCENT since the beginning of the year. That's everyone's retirement accounts and $$ gone. We all know how bad the economy is. But giving them another $25B or $50B just prolongs their FAILURE AS A BUSINESS MODEL and TERRIBLE MANAGEMENT as Imran pointed out. Do you give a crack addict more crack? Or do you put them in a rehab facility. Detroit needs rehab, and it's called "Chapter 11 Bankruptcy Protection" so they can restructure and be profitable in the future. It's a smaller sacrifice that is spread across all parties involved, not just footing a $25B loan to the taxpayers.
 

mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
I don't care what is done, but something needs to be done. You can't just think of it as a company, sadly it is bailing out (or Ch 11, whatever the solution) an entire metro area... and millions of innocent people.

I'm just sayin' if you don't live around here then you really cannot comprehend how connected our economy and daily life is connected to the Big 3....

and 2.3 Million American jobs are directly connected to the Big 3

a lot to comprehenddd :-\
 
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