God Bless America...

[HarmanSingh]

http://saldef.org/content.aspx?a=3735

 

[Pooja]

wow.

So is Oregon the only state in which a kind of law as such does not apply for public school teachers?

This is the section:

"SECTION 4. ORS 342.650 is amended to read:
342.650. No teacher in any public school shall wear any religious dress while engaged in the
performance of duties as a teacher. A school district, education service district or public char-
ter school does not commit an unlawful employment practice under ORS chapter 659A by
reason of prohibiting a teacher from wearing religious dress while engaged in the perform-
ance of duties as a teacher."

I'm really surprised actually that this sort of thing is still prevalent in the US...

 

[Jeeti]

Wow...what a shame. I am glad that the SALDEF organization is at least attempting to draw attention to it and gather support for a repeal.

 

[pluthra]

So, well this doesn't have to do entirely with the topic but kinda does...so France has banned religious symbols/garments and they have some interesting reasons why which I have to say make sense but don't. For example, they've banned wearin a burka because it goes against the idea of equality of the sexes. Another example, students aren't allowed to wear any religious symbols/garments because they don't want that to be a distraction in the learning environment (which makes sense because how many kids get called out for looking different when they're little because they wear a certain garment, etc).

But do u think that a religious garment could be a distraction in an environment such as a school? I mean every student is influenced by their teachers in some way. But what sort of effect would a teacher wearing a certain religious item have on a student. And now that I think of it I don't think any of my teachers ever wore a cross around their neck or anything to really show what religion they were. But in general teachers have to be wary of what they say (like they don't associate what political party they side with ever, etc). So ya, the question....what influence could a teacher's religious garment/etc have on students, if any?

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

So, well this doesn't have to do entirely with the topic but kinda does...so France has banned religious symbols/garments and they have some interesting reasons why which I have to say make sense but don't. For example, they've banned wearin a burka because it goes against the idea of equality of the sexes. Another example, students aren't allowed to wear any religious symbols/garments because they don't want that to be a distraction in the learning environment (which makes sense because how many kids get called out for looking different when they're little because they wear a certain garment, etc).

But do u think that a religious garment could be a distraction in an environment such as a school? I mean every student is influenced by their teachers in some way. But what sort of effect would a teacher wearing a certain religious item have on a student. And now that I think of it I don't think any of my teachers ever wore a cross around their neck or anything to really show what religion they were. But in general teachers have to be wary of what they say (like they don't associate what political party they side with ever, etc). So ya, the question....what influence could a teacher's religious garment/etc have on students, if any?

French people are xenophobes to the max, and are especially wary of Muslims. That is the reason for religious symbol ban mostly. There is really no legit justification for any of these laws other than to oppress minorities.

 

[pluthra]

okk another question or well statement i guess....I dont think that americans (maybe im bein bias b/c i dont know really) but they dont seem to understand the difference between a religious symbol/garment and a sign of respect.

When we go to the temple/gurdwara/mosque, we cover our heads as a sign of respect. But wearin a cross, a om sign, a khanda is of no actual significance. It has nothing to do with actually showing god that I respect you, I mean you can only show respect in certain ways. So, the same thing with a turban. A turban is more than a mere religious garment, its a sign of respect (indirectly related, but still its to show god that I have respect for you and thus I chose to live my lifestyle in the way you ask me, right?)

Well, I dont know the story behind a burka because it could make sense why the french did ban the burka, its more of an object of society rather than religion. Women probably don't go around wearing a burka to show their respect for god.

So, then shouldn't there be an exception for something that is a part of a process of showing your respect for god? But then what other expections are there?

And i dont think the French are just trying to oppress minorities, just my opinion. Sure they have some weird ways of trying to savior the Frenchness, but I mean they're just acting as people right? We do have a tendency for some part of us to want to continue into the future. And, we don't know where the arguements for banning the burka entirely come from. Its not like they decided to hear out the women who do wear burkas and then make a decision or maybe they did take it into consideration and realize that these women were under oppression becaue of this garment. So, we can't blame them entirely for acting i'm gonna say normal

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

okk another question or well statement i guess....I dont think that americans (maybe im bein bias b/c i dont know really) but they dont seem to understand the difference between a religious symbol/garment and a sign of respect.

When we go to the temple/gurdwara/mosque, we cover our heads as a sign of respect. But wearin a cross, a om sign, a khanda is of no actual significance. It has nothing to do with actually showing god that I respect you, I mean you can only show respect in certain ways. So, the same thing with a turban. A turban is more than a mere religious garment, its a sign of respect (indirectly related, but still its to show god that I have respect for you and thus I chose to live my lifestyle in the way you ask me, right?)

Religious symbols can be anything small like a kara or taweez to something like a turban or hijab. To you maybe wearing a cross or om or khanda has no significance but to each person it might and does.

Well, I dont know the story behind a burka because it could make sense why the french did ban the burka, its more of an object of society rather than religion. Women probably don't go around wearing a burka to show their respect for god.

French society has had a problem integrating immigrants in recent times. Whatever reason a woman wears a hijab or burkah it shouldnt impinge on her right to wear it.

And i dont think the French are just trying to oppress minorities, just my opinion. Sure they have some weird ways of trying to savior the Frenchness, but I mean they're just acting as people right? We do have a tendency for some part of us to want to continue into the future. And, we don't know where the arguements for banning the burka entirely come from. Its not like they decided to hear out the women who do wear burkas and then make a decision or maybe they did take it into consideration and realize that these women were under oppression becaue of this garment. So, we can't blame them entirely for acting i'm gonna say normal

Do a little bit more research. http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/consumer_goods/article6572173.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/10/french-police-fight-rioting-youths, http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/005856.html

Xenophobia is no excuse for denying a person their rights even if that means the face of the country changes, they shouldnt let people immigrate in the first place then.

 

[Ashveer]

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[Jeeti]

Parul...I would be careful talking about the burka so loosely...although it doesn't necessarily show a respect for God....it does indicate a respect for the Islamic culture...which is also held highly in some circles of the community. That having been said, telling someone that they may not wear something that they hold in such high cultural regard...although not religious...is still a violation of that person's rights...

I think your opinion on the burka is too "outside-looking-in"....no offense, but I think maybe you should read up a bit more on the topic...or would someone please on BTF that may be more familiar with the idea...shed some light.

In response to France...it is as simple as Comtondajatt explained it....they have always been like this and will continue to be...its sad to think about, but its the truth...they are a pompous people that oppress minorities. I am usually a person that will give the benefit of the doubt...but what goes on in France is outrageous...the imposition of any "face of a country" should never happen...

 

[terabaap]

Does religious headgear count as religious dress?

 

[rajkaran]

I thought France revoked that law about religious articles in schools for students? Idk...I could be wrong...

Does religious headgear count as religious dress?

I believe it does...
...I'm not too sure about karas...probably not?

 

[terabaap]

I thought France revoked that law about religious articles in schools for students? Idk...I could be wrong...

Does religious headgear count as religious dress?

I find this to be very important as if by religious dress they are referring to dress(i.e. a full body clothing) or are they referring to all religious symbols including headgear(Yamaka, Pagh, ...)

I believe it does...
...I'm not too sure about karas...probably not?

 

[pluthra]

Parul...I would be careful talking about the burka so loosely...although it doesn't necessarily show a respect for God....it does indicate a respect for the Islamic culture...which is also held highly in some circles of the community. That having been said, telling someone that they may not wear something that they hold in such high cultural regard...although not religious...is still a violation of that person's rights...and i'll read up on the burka I dont think i have any right to say what those who do wear a burka actually experience because i've never been in there shoes....

I think your opinion on the burka is too "outside-looking-in"....no offense, but I think maybe you should read up a bit more on the topic...or would someone please on BTF that may be more familiar with the idea...shed some light.

In response to France...it is as simple as Comtondajatt explained it....they have always been like this and will continue to be...its sad to think about, but its the truth...they are a pompous people that oppress minorities. I am usually a person that will give the benefit of the doubt...but what goes on in France is outrageous...the imposition of any "face of a country" should never happen...

i think my opinion isn't really wat i think is right or wrong its just i have no clue...I'm not saying that what the french are doing is right because ya i understand that the burka is of cultural importance to those who wear it and I'm not saying oh the french are right that they are actually trying to ban it because they really have on argument that favors those who wear a burka (they just speak are pretending to represent them even though they dont know)...i was just posing another view....and wondering how certain religious symbols/garments do effect society.....and i'll figure out how those who actually wear a burka feel about wearing a burka before i decide to talk on their behalf because i don't have any right to know what they experience because i've never been in there shoes or even close to it

 

[HarmanSingh]

Every teacher in every classroom in America has a bias. It is only natural. Everyone reacts to each situation differently based on their past and their life experiences. But to think that a teacher who happens to be a Sardar/Sardarni cannot put that bias aside and teach a class free of unfair treatment to other students is ridiculous. I am going into teaching...and yes, my Pugh will be a distraction for a lot of students initially. But guess what...it has been and will continue to be a distraction in any job I pursue. It is foreign, it is "weird" and it is misunderstood.

But does that mean I then do not have the right to find a job simply because the public is distracted by my religious beliefs? If I lived in Oregon (Pennsylvania also has the same law on the books), I would be forced to leave the state to find a job I spent 4 years earning a bachelors degree in because of my religion. That is the definition of discrimination. This is not about the students, it is not about protecting students and it is not about providing the students with the best possible education...it is about an ignorant and grossly misinformed school system which is letting its prejudices and bigotry get in the way of running the schools. Keep in mind, this law was originally supported by the KKK and its members.

It is absurd because I can teach a class as a Sardar and teach it just the same as a Christian, an atheist, an agnostic or a Jew. But to penalize me and bar me from acquiring a job I may be qualified for based on my religion? It shows you how far this country has to go and kills the idea that we are a "post-racial" society free from bigotry. How about focusing on the qualifications of teachers rather than their religious beliefs?

 

[Sido90]

As a hijabi, I'd just like to say that my personal reasons for wearing hijab are out of repect to the God as well as respect to my identity. And yes, unfortunately sometimes girls are forced to wear hijab but many chose to do it themselves. It's not about oppression. I don't feel oppressed. I can do anything a non-hijabi can do.

So as a hijabi, growing up seeing all my teachers and peers dress differently than me did not deter me from doing what I believe in so how would a white kid feel pressured to act like their teachers. I don't see how having a teacher who wears a turban or a hijab or any other type of religious garment would affect anyone. As long as the teacher is not promoting their religion then I don't see what's wrong in that. I mean, you can't hide everyone from your children's eyes. They're gonna see us somewhere. They can't ban us from being in public. In my opinion, this law just promotes more hate and makes it legal for people to discriminate against us.

And as far as it being a distraction- ok sure, the first week I wore hijab everyone was curious why I started wearing a scarf. But it was hardly a distraction. I don't think anyone lost sleep over me wearing hijab. And I agree with Harman Singh- appearance shouldn't be made more important the qualifications. Why should people who observe religious garments have to sacrifice oppotunities because of a choice that they made that has no effect in anyone elses life but their own?

And Parul, much respect to your opinion but, I really do think you should educate yourself more before playing Devil's advocate.

 

[Jeeti]

As a hijabi, I'd just like to say that my personal reasons for wearing hijab are out of repect to the God as well as respect to my identity. And yes, unfortunately sometimes girls are forced to wear hijab but many chose to do it themselves. It's not about oppression. I don't feel oppressed. I can do anything a non-hijabi can do.

So as a hijabi, growing up seeing all my teachers and peers dress differently than me did not deter me from doing what I believe in so how would a white kid feel pressured to act like their teachers. I don't see how having a teacher who wears a turban or a hijab or any other type of religious garment would affect anyone. As long as the teacher is not promoting their religion then I don't see what's wrong in that. I mean, you can't hide everyone from your children's eyes. They're gonna see us somewhere. They can't ban us from being in public. In my opinion, this law just promotes more hate and makes it legal for people to discriminate against us.

And as far as it being a distraction- ok sure, the first week I wore hijab everyone was curious why I started wearing a scarf. But it was hardly a distraction. I don't think anyone lost sleep over me wearing hijab. And I agree with Harman Singh- appearance shouldn't be made more important the qualifications. Why should people who observe religious garments have to sacrifice oppotunities because of a choice that they made that has no effect in anyone elses life but their own?

And Parul, much respect to your opinion but, I really do think you should educate yourself more before playing Devil's advocate.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.