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Judging at BAB 2012

Mukandpuria

New Member
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1,413
Disagree on the Nakhra - the only reason it seems like indian teams have more is becuase there is less dancers on stage, so you focus on indivisual people. Also there formations are simpler and the stage is smaller, so you can watch more than one dancer at a time. Where as in America you have 12 - 16 people running arround and spinning on a 40 by 40 stage (Hard to follow individuals). I have seen some crazy ass nakhra with live teams like NJ and VDW.

arjunK said:
Sue Sylvester said:
arjunK said:
This is also something I have been meaning to bring up for a while. I do apologize if this distracts from the conversation at hand but I strongly believe that, while it is important to dance as a unit and be clean, part of the joy of watching bhangra is to see the few people who are front and center in that particular formation to go nuts and thrive on the crowd's energy. Even in live sets from India, there is always SOME, albeit small level of variation between the styles of each dancer, and the jodi in the front and center, for the most part, adds some flare and style to their dancing. Not always, but it does happen. I think the AMOUNT of emphasis we put on cleanliness has kept several teams from flourishing and has, to some extent, curbed the creativity in terms of nakhra and dancing style on this circuit.
Just because India does it doesn't mean we should. We dance for completely different audiences and we have different resources to create and polish our sets. And the amount of individual nakhra that Indian teams do is still minor and the level of control and cleanliness is still quite high - perhaps only 3-4 music teams in North America are able to perform at that level these days. The rest of the teams are bullshitting themselves if they think they've even come close to be sacrificing dancing style or having fun for the sake of cleanliness. Enjoying the performance, smiling and looking alive are very important regardless but there is a "chill-running-down-your-spin"-inducing feeling that comes with watching a team of dancers without egos.

Just to clarify - my sentiment was more "because India does it i don't see why we can't do it", not we should. I don't think I agree that the individual nakhra that Indian teams do is minor, at least as a general statement, because I have seen a good amount where it isn't. I'm not saying to remove cleanliness completely - I just think it is emphasized entirely too much, and it takes away from other aspects of the dance.

<3 u kinnell
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
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2,072
Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan said:
Sue Sylvester said:
This topic always makes me gag.... so like 50 Shades of Traditionality, eh?
Another thing to ponder, for the experts here (of which I am not one), is when this "traditionality" started appearing on the scoring sheets. It didn't just pop out of nowhere. It's not a given. What motivated it in the very beginning? -- what were the motives of the individuals who first added it before it, presumably, spread (e.g. during the "live" trend)? And it would be interesting to know whether the people who introduced it were people that we think knew what they were talking about, or just overzealous "uncles" or uncles-in-training.
The influence from live teams was circa 06-08 and solidified our current bhangra sets in terms of specific segments, order of segments, stylization of moves (of course it's evolved and individual per team, but we're talking difference between empire vs. live team here). Traditionality was added to really emphasize this movement and reward teams who execute the different segments and perform the live-team inspired stylization.


To me, it's always been, as Sumeet describes, a category of completion. Do the various segments, get the points. Whatever it's initial purpose (i.e. be more traditional!) it's execution has been to reward teams that perform a set more similar to a live team than anything else. If diversity of segments is an issue, then it should be included in a rubric as such and not indirectly judged through the prism of 'traditionality'

We're moving away from it anyway, nothing in the past 2 years has really looked like what we had during the 'folk brap brap' phase of 06-09. It's existence on a rubric is primarily (whether people purposefully do it or not) to indicate to teams what type of competition the organizers want. A means of gauging the style of team a comp is looking for.
 

faizan

Just shut up and dance
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1,736
We're moving away from it anyway, nothing in the past 2 years has really looked like what we had during the 'folk brap brap' phase of 06-09. It's existence on a rubric is primarily (whether people purposefully do it or not) to indicate to teams what type of competition the organizers want. A means of gauging the style of team a comp is looking for.

yes, this is absolutely accurate. if you are throwing a progressive competition, please remove the b.s. 20 points for "traditionality." because at the end of the day, it means nothing and is asinine...
 

Govind

Member
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364
With a dance that is constantly evolving, we must recognize that 'traditionality' is an arbitrary and artificial construct. We constantly redefine the dance, the presentation, the moves, and their 'execution.' We have in a way created a sport and artificially created rules and confines to govern the way we referee that sport.

To do away with traditionality as a category however is to deny that there is a history (even a recent one) to which the dance we perform is linked. I remember faizan when you and I had a conversation back in 2007 about how what I saw in India resembled nothing that people here purported to be "traditional bhangra" and moves done "the proper way." I think traditionality as a category should be interpreted with this understanding, but move forward with it as a criteria that allows flexibility in how moves/sequences/specific folk dances presented may be executed. It's when certain moves/sequences/dances become completely unrecognizable that one must ask whether it is an acceptable presentation of "bhangra" as we have to define it. I realize I'm being a bit vague here, but I figured I'd put this out there for your thoughts. :)
 

J-Skeet

New Member
Messages
252
With all due respect guys this competition is based on traritionality as defined by the judges. With that being said they have all the right to judge accordingly. A lot of people have been stressing that tradition is too vague nobody knows what it is and therefore should not be judged like that, but let's say we throw out the word traditional for a second now the judges are kidding based on a certain style of bhangra that every team should respect. Every competition has there own style and it is implied that each should cater to the judges and there judging rubric if they wish to win. This is BAB's 3rd year so no doubt teams know what this competition is looking for and BAB clearly outlines what they are looking for. I understand that some teams don't dance "traditionally".. but every single competition has there own style just like teams do and participating teams should honor BAB criteria and judges. Also folk bhangra should be kept alive why erase it from judging criteria...next thing you know teams will be smashing there khundes on stage like rockstars for cheap gimmicks. Anyway about the ORIGNAL topic of this thread yes the judges shouldn't be subjective, but this also shouldn't be on BTF (at least not as a point by point attack(how its coming off to me) on the judges). Sorry if I offended anyone as well but this topic is getting was digressing from the original point and really the idea of throwing away traditional (defined by BAB) kind of got me ticked. Also lastly BABy's definition of folk/traditional is widely accepted throughout India, N. America , UK as folk traditional...in other words BAB isn't just blindly calling there style bhangra...it wasn't developed yesterday and each team knew what they signed up for.
 

faizan

Just shut up and dance
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1,736
It's when certain moves/sequences/dances become completely unrecognizable that one must ask whether it is an acceptable presentation of "bhangra" as we have to define it.

and 20 points for traditionally on a rubric cannot solve this issue...
 

J-Skeet

New Member
Messages
252
Govind said:
With a dance that is constantly evolving, we must recognize that 'traditionality' is an arbitrary and artificial construct. We constantly redefine the dance, the presentation, the moves, and their 'execution.' We have in a way created a sport and artificially created rules and confines to govern the way we referee that sport.

To do away with traditionality as a category however is to deny that there is a history (even a recent one) to which the dance we perform is linked. I remember faizan when you and I had a conversation back in 2007 about how what I saw in India resembled nothing that people here purported to be "traditional bhangra" and moves done "the proper way." I think traditionality as a category should be interpreted with this understanding, but move forward with it as a criteria that allows flexibility in how moves/sequences/specific folk dances presented may be executed. It's when certain moves/sequences/dances become completely unrecognizable that one must ask whether it is an acceptable presentation of "bhangra" as we have to define it. I realize I'm being a bit vague here, but I figured I'd put this out there for your thoughts. :)
Didn't get a chance to read this before posting my thoughts... And I really couldn't of said it better myself, but I still said it, much respect to your judging and keep it up.
 

J-Skeet

New Member
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252
faizan said:
It's when certain moves/sequences/dances become completely unrecognizable that one must ask whether it is an acceptable presentation of "bhangra" as we have to define it.

and 20 points for traditionally on a rubric cannot solve this issue...
Can't speak for the judges but I'm pretty sure no team got a zero for that category
 
Messages
237
I've two points to express. This post is the first.


I appreciate Swi's explanation of "traditionality" as a "category of completion." That makes sense to me -- makes sense in terms of how it can function, though the word used is still nonsense. You'd be better off calling it "compulsory routine" or something, like in the artistic sports like ice skating.


The notion of "traditionality" as a judging criterion to keep bhangra from disintegrating into madness, as I already expressed, is silly. Bhangra will not become unrecognizeable any more than it already has. If any one has looked at the photos and videos I and others have posted in the "Visual history" thread, you'll see plain evidence that today's bhangra has no counterpart to what was being done a few decades earlier. If that does not constitute unrecognizeable, what does (shy of silly and unlikely things like the khunda smashing or Lou Ferrigno example)? It is basically still recognizable because people are dressed up in the costumes...Any dance you do on stage with that sort of costume and which you say is Punjabi will be recognized as "bhangra." In my opinion, it is not the failure to uphold traditionality that has led to changes, but the inordinate focus on bhangra as something iconic, as a display...a shell of sorts...an icon of "traditionality" that does not require much formal adherence to tradition. "Traditionality" is a concept embedded in the clothing, and it is embedded in the very definition of bhangra as it has been received by Punjabis in Diaspora, in the cities, in "modern life" in general.


"Bhangra" is no more bhangra than it is luddi. And it is no more traditional than a Michael Jackson album. Do we speak of "traditional Michael Jackson songs"? No, because that idea of traditionality is not attached to MJ-- we clearly know the origins of his songs and nor have they been called into action to represent a people or political state. MJ's songs would better be called "classics." I suspect that, in the "category of completion" sense one is talking about "classic" dance of Era xyz. It would be great if someone cared enough to actually investigate and back up what they mean when they call something classic though. It would be great if, in this spirit of transparency but also in the spirit of inquisitiveness and TRUTH, people could say the specific era/place/person's bhangra they were following, instead of dropping the carpet bomb of "traditional." (I have seen very little engagement on the "visual history" thread. I expect more to say "Ah! that's the moment when thing X we do was introduced. Interesting...")


As I said, I do have vague recollection of hearing "traditionality" as a judging criterion before the "live team" trend. I was hoping someone would remember.


I know 2001 isn't really that long ago, but in the scheme of what has changed in bhangra it seems like ages ago. There was a sort of "epic" discussion going on back then on a message board that I was involved with, and it addressed these issues. Again, it's not long ago, but one has to imagine how the discussions would have been different before all the POL goofiness, the live team trend, and the sort of "post-live" era of BTF. This was when a lot of bhangra was Gujju girls wearing a loongi up to their knees and kicking out to the side, and when most young people had never seen a dhol in person. At the time, Tejinder Singh of SIAC was the champion of the "establish a traditional baseline" idea, which I think Govind has just stated here. It sounds very reasonable. It's like: Bhangra is our traditional Punjabi dance. We have the sacred duty as judges and superior dancers (superior because we have a handle on the ever elusive element of "real Punjabi culture" and that puts us in a powerful position when tradition is politicized as something making you more Punjabi or a better Punjabi)... Anyways...ahem, yes!...So we have this desire if not duty to "preserve" bhangra. Yet, we are reasonable; we are educated, we live in the West. We realize that "all things change." We just ask that there be a core of traditionality, and you can make slight changes as long as the core remains. As a matter of fact, go ahead and make those slight changes to express your "modernity," because, after all, we are like a combination of traditional and modern.


Hmmm. Sounds nice, doesn't it? The only problem with it is that it's bullshit. The idea of keeping a "traditional base" with modern touches is every much a personal and abstract aesthetic concept as advocating purism or advocating revolution. They are matters of taste that don't match up with reality. There is nothing wrong with having one taste or another, but if you present that as ideology and claim the facts match that, you are subject to be called out for it. I am calling you (whoever) out.


The reason I call people out on this is because I feel a sense of advocacy for the aesthetic values of my teachers. Hmm, yes! I, too, feel like preserving something: a particular set of aesthetics. Now, "traditionality" itself is nothing more than an aesthetic. Traditionality is not the quality of being traditional, it is the quality of satisfying what some individual feels to be traditional. The people who developed staged bhangra were generally required to satisfy their audiences' ever shifting ideas of what was traditional. Indeed, as they made shifts, they were able to change what audiences considered traditional. But traditionality was not, I argue, their base aesthetic. Just like North American teams today, performers in the 20th century India had to dance around this requirement of traditionality, because, as much of the public viewed it, it's why bhangra existed. The bureaucrats in the Cultural Affairs and other offices who wanted to "preserve and promote" bhangra simply could not have been sensitive enough to the subtle artistic aesthetics of the performers. Many, to be sure, understood bhangra as a big bludgeon that should hit you over the head with "traditionality", "pure Punjabi culture," and other nonsense.


So again I say that the insistence on one or other person's concept of traditionality is not safeguarding anything. On the contrary, it can take the focus away from other aesthetic aspects and, in the worst case, has made bhangra (for some people) a mere shell representing "tradition"(="good") that can be filled with any old junk. And the idea of "a baseline of traditional form that varies with other stuff" is not just one person's opinion but also a concept that cannot be realized because....TRADITIONAL CONTENT IN TODAY'S BHANGRA IS NEGLIGIBLE. If you don't know that, then I can see you keeping the dream alive that some day you'll get the perfect balance of traditional base and modern spice. But if you do know that, then it all becomes rather moot. If you know that, it becomes like Michael Jackson's "Thriller" -- not traditional, but still badass and thoroughly enjoyable/


Part 2 to come later, in which I talk about why what you may think is traditional content, especially as viewed in India, is not.
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
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2,072
Most of the active members on this forum will not be able to engage you in a meaningful way here. One look at the 'best music sets of all time' and you realize there's a collective amnesia of what was going on before 2009 and 2010. Part of that is just that people get older and leave the scene, so those dancers are not really active anymore except for a handful of people.


To really discuss this topic it'd be more useful to engage people like the Dhanoas in California, the ustaads in Canada and many other older fixtures of the circuit who saw the transition from 2001 to 2010 (there are a lot actually, but they seem to be isolated to regions, I can't really think of anyone that is well known at a national or continental level).
 
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I dunno, Swi, I'd like to give people more credit. The level of awareness and quality of discussion have improved a million times since 2001.


At that time, there were a few of us coming from different backgrounds and perspectives.


1. Tejinder Singh from SIAC. Represented the view from 1980s?-1990s Jalandhar area college bhangra. That was his baseline of how bhangra was dance, but he was very curious to question how things might have evolved from earlier. The development of North American bhangra (1990s), which really originated largely in filmi type and music club/ music video, presented a crisis of where is bhangra "going."


2. Jim Dhanoa. Brought up among people who were the few in the U.S. who had good knowledge of what the Indian college style was like in earlier times. Confronted with the "non-traditional" looking American bhangra competitions, and could easily have claimed his elite access to "traditional" (=1970s Indian college) stuff was more correct, but instead questioned it.


3. Sonja Wolter, a German graduate student who had gone to Punjab to learn about the details of the dance actions. This was at a time when most foreigners were fixated on bhangra music rather than dance.


4. Amit Aulakh, a current member of the team at George Washington U, so kind of heir to the developing legacy of their first bhangra comp.


5. Myself, being interested in interviewing the people whose voices you don't hear as much -- the dholis, and looking at the forms from the perspective of dhol and within context of other dances.


We were all young people, not necessarily much older than most of the people on BTF. Older people weren't necessarily any wiser than they are now, and the ustads had their myopic views of the stuff in their own small worlds only. The sort of questioning that people like us were doing, I think, contributed to legacy of critique and discussion that has carried on into BTF.


There will always be a few people who are not content to take what they do at face value, and would like to get a richer understanding of how they fit into the art they are shaping. The "majority" can go it's own oblivious way. I think the change in discourse has to come within the community of performers.
 

voxanimus

<('.'<) (>'.')>
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1,685
Swi said:
Most of the active members on this forum will not be able to engage you in a meaningful way here. One look at the 'best music sets of all time' and you realize there's a collective amnesia of what was going on before 2009 and 2010. Part of that is just that people get older and leave the scene, so those dancers are not really active anymore except for a handful of people.


To really discuss this topic it'd be more useful to engage people like the Dhanoas in California, the ustaads in Canada and many other older fixtures of the circuit who saw the transition from 2001 to 2010 (there are a lot actually, but they seem to be isolated to regions, I can't really think of anyone that is well known at a national or continental level).

i think it's possible to engage's gibb's post on a purely intellectual, conceptual level.


gibb, as you've phrased it, or at least as how I have interpreted you as phrasing it, traditionality is nonsense because it certainly does not have a metric, and perhaps cannot even have a metric that is not inherently solipsistically fabricated or otherwise horribly subjective. in addition, people lack the actual knowledge of what is, historically speaking, traditional or not traditional, and this further contributes to the nebulous conception of "traditionality."


as i see it, the scepter of traditionality is most frequently brandished by those who regard themselves vanguards against adulteration. "too many hip-hop beats" or "too many non-bhangra steps" are reasonings of the sort of which are most often cited by those who deem performance X too divergent from traditionality.


as presumptuous as that sounds, inherently, i think that those people have a point. "bhangra" as we know it is a dance form that consists of moves that are part of a certain visual aesthetic. certainly bhangra is an individually definable dance form; it exists independently from flamenco and tango and bharatnatyam, etc. given this, how should one treat the inclusion of steps that are not bhangra into bhangra? it's difficult to clearly demarcate what is bhangra and what isn't bhangra, and doing so requires broaching the concept of traditionality once again, but purely conceptually, this is a valid point. putting some black paint into a bucket of white paint, mixing it up, and proceeding to call the new mixture "white" is ludicrous. isn't at some level, then, the argument for traditionality as a flawed but "somethings-better-than-nothing" guard against adulteration valid?


on a related note, i have a lot of questions about the evolution of bhangra from a choreographic perspective. from what i've read in your articles and your posts on the forum, your familiarity with bhangra is strongest when discussing its history as a cultural art and the specific elements of it musically. to what extent are you versed in the evolution of the actual dance steps? i ask this because i watched the videos to which you linked in the history thread and you're totally right; none of that stuff looks remotely like what we consider bhangra to be today. to put it rather crudely, it looks all "flowy." at what point, or at what points, did various elements of bhangra choreography fall into or out of vogue? for example, the current staple choreographic element for a bhangra routine is most likely the dhamaka/pataka/sheesha footwork. (it's the footwork being done at 0:07 here) when did this step show up? it's certainly not present in those videos from the 60s and 70s.


i apologize for not posting the second point on the appropriate thread.
 

faizan

Just shut up and dance
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1,736
Gibb, i read your dissertation and really enjoyed it. I think the entire notion of Traditional being tied to a sort of preserving of culture is a romantic notion stuck in the modern punjabi diaspora (and promoted by singers and dancers). I have always been of the opinion that all this "traditional" vs. "modern" stuff was hogwash, and a farce. I look forward to your "part 2" as this will likely focus more on the origins of the individual folk dances that make up stage bhangra. Your concepts and arguments aren't that complicated, and simply seem to reflect the common sense approach that some members of BTF have always supported. I appreciate your view not only on the "Traditional" vs. "Modern" topic, but also your unique POV on the North American Bhangra Circuit. Thanks.
 

yraparla

SwizzeeMusic.com
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2,072
Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan said:
I dunno, Swi, I'd like to give people more credit. The level of awareness and quality of discussion have improved a million times since 2001.


At that time, there were a few of us coming from different backgrounds and perspectives.

There will always be a few people who are not content to take what they do at face value, and would like to get a richer understanding of how they fit into the art they are shaping. The "majority" can go it's own oblivious way. I think the change in discourse has to come within the community of performers.
Excellent points, My comment was more directed to your questioning on how and why this notion of preserving traditionality occurred. And in that regard I think most of the people closer to my age (early 20s or younger) are either doing it either because they had ustaads and academies that taught them in that way, OR they really do see bhangra has a pure form of their culture. This second point is what I was referencing, that if you saw anything from say 2001 to 2006 (let alone the whole history of bhangra) you'd probably understand that it's not really a 'pure' folk dance that dates back hundreds of years.

So all I'm saying is that we can sit here and intellectually discuss the topic, and we should. We should question and evolve and progress. But when asking historical question about traditional baseline, wouldn't it make more sense to try to get Teginderji onto the site? Or have someone ask our questions to him and give answers? I'd like to hear responses from those types of people because they were involved in the movement, I have my ideas and my assumptions but I was still a young dancer and just learning what was going on, just like a majority of the people on the site. That's all I was saying.

I'll try to start engaging people outside the community when we have interesting discussions like this so we can gain perspectives
 
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237
i think it's possible to engage's gibb's post on a purely intellectual, conceptual level.
Thank you, vox.

gibb, as you've phrased it, or at least as how I have interpreted you as phrasing it, traditionality is nonsense because it certainly does not have a metric, and perhaps cannot even have a metric that is not inherently solipsistically fabricated or otherwise horribly subjective. in addition, people lack the actual knowledge of what is, historically speaking, traditional or not traditional, and this further contributes to the nebulous conception of "traditionality."

Yes. With the additional points that:
1) What might be called traditional content is so negligible that the question of distinguishing the traditional from the non-traditional elements is moot;
2) "Traditionality" as a phrase and concept brings with it a host of connotations that are not necessary or appropriate. Think of a more neutral term for whatever it is you mean;
3) Traditionality as a quality to strive for A) puts undue emphasis on something that, paradoxically, was not pertinent to traditional bhangra and B) I think, emphasizes empty concept over artistry.

as i see it, the scepter of traditionality is most frequently brandished by those who regard themselves vanguards against adulteration. "too many hip-hop beats" or "too many non-bhangra steps" are reasonings of the sort of which are most often cited by those who deem performance X too divergent from traditionality.
I can see this. However, it would not be my own emphasis. Mine is that traditionality is a concept wrapped up in the very concept of bhangra as it (the concept of bhangra) has been received by much of the audience that finds themselves distanced from or at threat of distance from what they conceive to be real Punjabi culture. People get involved in bhangra for many reasons, but I don't believe it would have ever become so attractive if it weren't for the semblance of traditionality that it evokes.

as presumptuous as that sounds, inherently, i think that those people have a point. "bhangra" as we know it is a dance form that consists of moves that are part of a certain visual aesthetic. certainly bhangra is an individually definable dance form; it exists independently from flamenco and tango and bharatnatyam, etc. given this, how should one treat the inclusion of steps that are not bhangra into bhangra? it's difficult to clearly demarcate what is bhangra and what isn't bhangra, and doing so requires broaching the concept of traditionality once again, but purely conceptually, this is a valid point. putting some black paint into a bucket of white paint, mixing it up, and proceeding to call the new mixture "white" is ludicrous. isn't at some level, then, the argument for traditionality as a flawed but "somethings-better-than-nothing" guard against adulteration valid?
It is putting black paint into PINK and calling it "white." The way performances are framed is what allows the demarcation. It's certainly not tango, but it could be another North Indian folkloric dance if left without certain strong cues and labeled so positively.
on a related note, i have a lot of questions about the evolution of bhangra from a choreographic perspective. from what i've read in your articles and your posts on the forum, your familiarity with bhangra is strongest when discussing its history as a cultural art and the specific elements of it musically. to what extent are you versed in the evolution of the actual dance steps? i ask this because i watched the videos to which you linked in the history thread and you're totally right; none of that stuff looks remotely like what we consider bhangra to be today. to put it rather crudely, it looks all "flowy." at what point, or at what points, did various elements of bhangra choreography fall into or out of vogue? for example, the current staple choreographic element for a bhangra routine is most likely the dhamaka/pataka/sheesha footwork. (it's the footwork being done at 0:07 here) when did this step show up? it's certainly not present in those videos from the 60s and 70s.
These are the questions I was hoping to inspire people to ask with the Visual History thread. I have been too spread thin with other things to keep up with all the specific moves -- and it's so hard to remember what I've seen and where. But experienced current dancers who presumably are used to the current stuff only could spot the differences better.

I don't know when exactly that step came in – 2000s??? When I was first taught bhangra in India in 2000, it still looked a lot like the late 80s style you can see in Learn Bhangra in 7 Days.
Anyone who hasn’t done so should really re-watch that video (the routine at the end, not the silly training parts).
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8261331508718889840
To be sure, they seemed to have toned down the energy for it, but movements-wise this is what, I gather, had become canonical. For comparison, here is another vid ascribed to 1980s – perhaps a Ludhiana-based group. I do wonder if it could actually be early 1990s. In any case, aside from the extra energy (they’re younger guys), the style is similar to LB7D. They just use some different moves. But the dancers aren’t jumping up and down on hot coals and doing karate kicks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Va887Wh72ek

I don’t remember this style of step (i.e. in voxanimus’ example) in early 2000s North American bhangra, nor can I recall seeing it in Punjab in those years – but my memory is hazy on the latter so some groups might have started that. The 2005/2006 Indian college team vids that people saw were in a diff. style than what I remember the college teams doing earlier in the decade. (That whole jhummar sequence was an addition from just within the few years prior, when jhummar was being promoted hard and “revived.” Before that you basically had 1 or 2 “jhummar” steps that were standard – again see LB7D.)

The major reason I think American bhangra looks as it does is due to the dancing on kahirva rhythm all the time. Earlier bhangras were actually danced on the rhythm called “bhangra” (whodathunkit?). But none of the popular music tracks really go to bhangra rhythm because…guess what…they are not “bhangra.” They all go on kahirva. All of the non-live American dancing, which was the obly thing you had for many years, was danced to something that wasn’t conducive of bhangra. It was conducive of a dance sensibility that, I think, ore like you’d do at a club. Dancing on kahirva did not come out of thin air though. The 1971 Tunisia event had inspired the creation of all those “chaals” which were danced on kahirva. The chaals came to eat up a huge percentage of a bhangra performance, and those are the types of moves that Diaspora kids used to dance to “bhangra” music and which would eventually be part of the first American competitions.
 
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237
Part 2. These are some thoughts about what “traditional” means in the Indian context. This is why I believe it that in most cases drawing a comparison to something you saw or which someone said in India is not a good way to argue what you consider to be traditional for the purpose of critiquing North American bhangra. And these are reasons beyond the more obvious fact that bhangra in India (as evidence in the Visual History thread) has changed every decade.
I do realize I’ve steer this thread off its original topic, sorry. Thanks for indulging me, and in Part 3 :p I’ll explain why I’ve persisted with this off-topic discussion here.

I'll begin with an anecdote.
You know there's a step called "luddi," right? Actually, do people do that much anymore? It's the one where you clap in from of your chest w/ arms stretched forward.

This "luddi" was the first bhangra step I was ever "taught." And it was presented as "luddi". Garib Dass was the drummer. But he was with a bhangra coach guy he happened to be partnered with. In such cases, the college educated coaches did all the talking, while the drummers -- not formally schooled and, I think, maybe even considered too ethnically different to present to a mixed audience -- would hang back, stay silent. Although dholis tended to be the only folks with a real knowledge of tradition and technique that was passed through their families, they were mainly employed for a fee while a more normative-face guy did the explaining of things...explaining according to their school-based understanding. So, being a foreigner to Punjab and wanting to learn bhangra, and being taught this step by a group with a bhangra coach and a traditional drummer, it would be logical for me to file it away as a traditional step, right? I could close up shop, go back to the U.S. and say "Here's the traditional bhangra. I was taught by bhangra experts of Punjab." Or could I?

This "luddi" was indeed a popular step, as other performances confirmed, but WTH?--what did it have to do with the traditional luddi dance? As I would see later, actual luddi looks completely different, for example:


Dance called luddi

Also, the dhol rhythm played with this "luddi" from bhangra was being called "luddi" rhythm. It's what the Brits call "chaal" and what many in North American simply call "kahirva." But again, it is different from the rhythm of actual luddi.
By the time I had become aware of the “real” luddi, I’d long known not to treat the first luddi I’d learned as necessarily something traditional, though it had become customary. However, I could not be positive that the stage bhangra-based luddi had not developed out of some dance move, somewhere, that was traditional, if marginal.
While the origins of this stage luddi and why it would differ from the still-existing folk luddi were mysteries, I came to notice that the step was something that the 1950s PEPSU troupe did. Team member Balbir Sekhon in particular championed this step. I really wish you guys could see the video of him dancing it in the early 90s (I don’t currently have it). Sekhon had an amazing, beautiful style of dancing “bhangra.” I mean, THIS was the stuff that inspired people – the whole nation of India – to go crazy for bhangra in the 50s, and to establish it as the state dance. Balbir Sekhon was not only a great dancer but also a wonderful man. Yet this doesn’t change the fact that he was from Patiala and really unlikely to have seen the luddi dance of northwestern Punjab. I don’t know to what degree this stage step was adapted from something in tradition or if it was made up fresh, but all the information was suggesting that its origins as we know it lay with Sekhon.

So after thinking long about this, after several years of studying Punjabi dance, etc., I put the idea to the master, Garib Dass. This was Garib Dass who regularly presented the “traditional folk dance, bhangra” to audiences and trained countless dancers (mostly people in school or college).

I said, what do you think? Is it possible Balbir Sekhon created this version of “luddi”? Garib Dass replies, matter of fact: “Oh yeah, Sekhon and those guys made it up.”

Later, Master Harbhajan Singh corroborated that the PEPSU guys had “manufactured” the action.

There are two points to this anecdote. The first is that you can talk to people in India for a long time and they will continue to call something traditional, even if they know or suspect it was contrived. First off, your Average Joe just doesn’t know what is or what isn’t traditional in bhangra. He or she can only say based on what he’s seen, e,g, what he first learned in his decade is “traditional,” and everything else is modern bakwaas.
Yet the more important part of this point I’m making THAT I WANT TO REGISTER WITH PEOPLE is that even the qualified masters of the art will tacitly allow you to assume that everything they do is traditional. That is just the way it works. Bhangra is supposed to appear as something traditional, and it makes no sense to them to "confess" to everything they do that isn’t. Indeed, that is to their disadvantage. The Bazigar dholis, for instance – the guys who helped shape a lot of the early Indian stage bhangra – really needed to get paid. The “In-Charge” who employed them, in a Public Relations office or whatever, could ask them for “traditional” and they’d say “Oh yeah, sure, Boss, whatever you want. 100% traditional.” Yet these people were artists and they also liked to be creative. They were meant to be creative—a desire that could be seen as at odds with the state and modern audience’s desire for something frozen in time. So I don’t think they did anything unethical in making changes, creating new stuff. It’s just that they had to play the game – to allow audiences to presume that everything they did was more or less coming out of traditional bhangra.
I don’t think these artists were hung up, either, by the fact that what they were doing wasn’t traditional bhangra. Just like many American bhangra groups today accept and are not worried that their bhangra isn’t traditional, it was no skin off their backs if audiences believed it was. In a way, it’s really an unfair demand of the audience. Let the audience have their fantasy if what they get out of watching bhangra is largely a feeling that Tradition has been reaffirmed, rather than appreciating the artistry that the performers strive for.

The irony is that while many bhangra artists in India knew that what they were doing wasn’t traditional bhangra, people in the West assumed that it all was.

Add to this the observation that a lot of guys in Punjab, if they don’t know something, will just make up an answer. If you come as a layperson to a bhangra master and ask, “ustad ji, is xyz traditional?” if he doesn’t know, he probably won’t say that. After all, he is supposed to be the master, and you are the student. It’s easier just for him to say “yeah,” because, aside from possibly needing to save face, it’s just the way that bhangra is presented. No one is interrogating the issues; it’s not the custom to view bhangra as an art that was developed by individuals with personal contributions through the decades. Rather, "bhangra" as the State Folk Dance is a big pool into which people throw their contributions and hopefully everyone forgets who did it as quickly as possible!

The issue of discourse and what you can expect a bhangra master to say if you ask him brings me to the second point of the anecdote. I’d have not known to ask “Is luddi traditional?” from Harbhajan Singh if Garib Dass had not already given me the clue. And Garib Dass would not have been so frank with me if we had not developed a relationship over years, in which I became viewed as someone to which these details mattered and could be told without "fear" as it were.

If you go over to India and have a brief meeting with some bhangra guy, or if he comes here, the things he says in response to you aren’t necessarily going to enlighten you much about what is traditional in bhangra. First off, of course, you need to know what sort of questions to ask. If you just ask “Is this traditional?” it’s like asking your dad if he masturbates. People always like more engaging questions and ones that show you have a broad understanding of things. You need to show that you understand that person’s rules of discourse. Approach eliciting the information in a different way. But mainly, yes, knowing what sort of questions to ask, which develops through talking to a lot of people. So if you just went over to India and had a conversation with one guy, repeating what he said back to you, in my opinion, doesn’t really constitute knowledge of what is traditional.
Second, that person may view you in a certain way. He is “esteemed teacher” and you’re “reverent student.” In those cases, the master is telling you things he thinks you’re supposed to know, but only as much as you need to know. You ask dad if he masturbates and he starts giving you a lecture about “the birds and the bees.” In this case, the fine details are deemed inappropriate, stuff he shouldn’t be telling. Garib Dass would not have told a starry-eyed American bhangra team dancer, in search of “traditional bhangra,” that Balbir Singh Sekhon made up luddi. He would just have been like “Here, son. This is a move in our traditional bhangra. Try it. No, hold your hands a little higher. Good. Now go home; God be with you, beta.”

Aside from all the other people I spoke with in Punjab – in which my habit was to pay return visits (people tend to be guarded on first visit), Garib Dass ji was someone I was in regular communication with for 10 years. I went to his house and on trips with him countless times, and brought him to stay with me in U.S. twice. He and his family got to know what I was about – a seeker of knowledge, and not just satisfaction of an urge to be a bhangra star or explore my identity. So when we talked, although I hope I treated him with utmost respect, it was more as friends and there was more candor – he spoke “on the level.”

I am doubtful that that level of candor and sophistication of questioning (which develops over a long period) is often present when people claim that they know traditional bhangra because they met so-and-so. So if someone says they are in the position to assess what is traditional in bhangra because they danced in college in Punjab, talked to their uncle, or even had a chat with a bhangra master, there is still much reason to question whether they really are.
 
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OK, here is something special; just uploaded it. The late Balbir Sekhon, member of PEPSU's original bhangra troupe (1950s) showing bhangra in 1996. He is flanked by "legends" who are almost all deceased. Mangal Sunami on algoze, Maddan Lal (L) and Garib Dass (R) on dhols. Pammi Bai is standing behind, and the slight, elderly man just standing aside him is PEPSU dholi Bhana Ram. Chimta is played by an amazing Bazigar performer named Mundri Lal.
Balbir Singh Sekhon dancing bhangra


This was one of the guys who first brought "bhangra" to the stage, set the whole ball rolling. Is it even comparable to ANYTHING you would see today in North American bhangra? After Sekhon's time, many things were created from scratch and added to bhangra that could be considered analogous to "modern" actions that teams might make up today. AND the very style and basic step (footwork) changed.


And people talk about "grace" and nakhra today. Huh?


Presented with this, how on earth can you locate "traditional" in one of today's performances? If "traditional" is just a code word for certain steps and a style that you, as a judge, have in mind and which comes from a specific era/place of bhangra, is it not appropriate to ask you to detail just what that is? If the dancers performed like Balbir Singh Sekhon, would you give them even more credit for being "more traditional," or would you maybe not even recognize it and say "that's not bhangra"?


if someone is able to show you that one of your "traditional" actions was added, say, in 1980, would you persist in letting it qualify? Or would you just call it "an '80s move"?


I understand the concept of there being a "common consensus" of what looks traditional among many participants in the scene. Yet given the fact that that idea of traditional does not hold water with reality (i.e. it is merely code for something), is it really fair? Dancers aware of the heritage of their art, who want to perform in the spirit or style of earlier eras, might actually have to compete in "modern" competitions so as not to be judged by an arbitrary standard. Balbir Sekhon would have to enter a modern competition.
 

Prubh

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Show me another competitive sport or graded art form that is judged on traditionality.


I know this has been discussed a lot. Yet people still won't let go of the vague concept of traditionality. Probably because, for some people, evoking a vague sense of traditionality is precisely why bhangra exists. I think those people need to try to step out of that box to envision how bhangra can exist without the purpose of evoking/articulating/embodying some concept of traditionality. I'll bet the first bhangra dancers were not worried about traditionality; other interests shaped their dancing.


The reason why I can see someone using traditional on a rubric is because they want to maintain Bhangra the way Bhangra was seen and taught to them. "Bhangra" comps produce winners who put on the best magic show on stage. The traditional aspect on a rubric only attempts to avoid that magic trick and actually focus on the dance in itself. Gimmicks are cool and all but when you're anticipating the next teams gimmick over their actual dance is where I can see the issue "uncles" or "uncles in training" may have.
 
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