Judging Idea

[Danny]

I finally got a chance to go through the “Judges called my set too folk” thread or what have you. An idea struck me. Going out on a limb here and swinging for the fences here but…


…why don’t team captains just record videos of Judges meetings and post them?


Think about it.


It can’t get anymore transparent than that.


How many times have you watched an epic routine and said to yourself: “Man, how did that team not win? What the heck were the judges watching?!?.” This would be the ultimate motivation for judges to provide legitimate feedback knowing that the bhangra community will get the opportunity to judge their judging (does that make sense? Sorry, it’s Monday morning) Judges will have to be on their A-game and be extra meticulous with how they provide feedback to captains while giving the entire bhangra community a chance to see how they may feel about a certain category on the given rubric. If I were judging and knew my words would be heard by more than just the 1-2 captains sitting in front of me, I would be extremely hesitant to sandwich my thoughts into a vague sentence like “your set was too folk” or “you weren’t clean enough” and actually try to go in-depth with it.


At the same time, it will give captains something tangible to review with their team come next practice. After placings are announced at a competition, there is so much happening (Giving your team the pep talk, taking photos, saying your hi’s and bye’s to family, pregaming with teammates, thinking about what could’ve, should’ve, would’ve happened on stage, etc.) that by the time you get settled in your chair at the judges meeting and clear your head, a committee member tells you your 3-5 minute “discussion” is over. NEXT! You grasp as much as you can and then those mental notes get even more bastardized when you are explaining them to your team.


I also remember somebody mentioning how everyone and their mother believes they can judge now without the proper credentials. Now, what better way to filter out the under qualified and the “seat-fillers” than to actually see their judging skills in action. If you watched a judge provide little to no feedback or talk out of their rear during a captains-judges meeting and all of BTF took note of that, what makes you think that person will ever judge again?


This, in my opinion, is also the next best thing in bhangra’s “Media Department.” Any upcoming competition…heck, even GTV, If you were to implement this or something very similar, I guarantee you will win the respect of the bhangra community and only good can come from that. We have completely overdone these annoying hype or “shout-out” videos before a competition that flood Facebook. Most them get played once and then never again. Invest that time in setting up a proper camera during the Captain-Judge sit-downs and getting someone to do minimal editing. I would actually encourage teams to do it anyways with their own equipment or even camera phones maybe. If a committee member tells you that you can’t, then I think you deserve better after spending thousands of dollars to get there and practicing for months making your set. How many times have you really received those precious score sheets that you were promised? And if you have been lucky enough to get your hands on them, what good were a few scribbled numbers on a piece of paper months and months after the competition is a done deal?


I can’t really see anyone having a problem with this. Maybe the actual judges themselves? I don’t know. Camera shy maybe? This should be an opportunity to show how confident you are in what you saw on stage, how you went about with scoring, and more importantly how you provided constructive criticism.[SIZE=78%] [/SIZE]


If worse comes to worst, at least the trolls of BTF will have a heyday with the judge videos. Think of the entertainment value. It’ll be like watching Simon Cowell on X Factor. Not that I watch that show or anything…


This may be the worst idea ever but I don't dance anymore and it's the year-end at the office, so I have way too much time to think. Either way, I would love to hear what others have to say about it. Let’s keep it nice and clean, nothing below the belt kids

 

[hardeep_singh]

Sick idea Danny, this would definitely put pressure on judges to clarify their decisions. An idea i had along a similar vein was that judges should record their comments while they are watching a set, so they don't leave anything out and can justify their reasoning when asked.

 

[siddyp]

i would not mind this. and would encourage it.

judges comments go from captains to their teams, and get floated to other teams too. many people ask teams the question: "what did the judges say??" the word gets around. The part where it gets shaky is when a judge something that doesn't make sense or is considered 'outrageous,' that comment will spread like wildfire. And thus, we have a thread that is questioning what was told to a team... and that thread wasn't even started by the team to which it was told to...

So doing this would force teams NOT to exaggerate what a judge actually said in the meeting. If it is out there, then what was said is clear as it would be in writing. because dancers/teams/captains may not like a feedback session, and anger/emotions can cause them to exaggerate what really went down and what was really said. I'm not saying that teams are lying about what was said in these meetings, but interpretations can lead to different explanations of what really happened...

So if we do what Danny is suggesting, there is no argument on what was said, and we can then decide if we agree/disagree with the explanation offered.

+1 Danny.

 

[siddyp]

An idea i had along a similar vein was that judges should record their comments while they are watching a set, so they don't leave anything out and can justify their reasoning when asked.

from sheets that have been given to my teams, judges do write down things they like/didn't like, things that stand out so they can go back and remember what happened. I've even seen laptops being used because typing is faster than writing.

 

[rajkaran]

I only got a chance to skim through your whole post, but to play devil's advocate, there are one or two initial pitfall of this that I can foresee. With this much transparency, judges may back down from proper/harsh judging (because they know they're being watched) and end up being too lenient. On the flip side, the teams/captains being judged are also being put on the spotlight, keep their mouths shut (for whatever reason), and might not get the best out of their rather quick discussion.

Not sure if my logic makes sense, but I personally would feel very uncomfortable with videos.

However, it seem like your intent is to 1) get something tangible for teams to work on post-competition and 2) to have judges be reviewed.

My suggestion (and perhaps this should be for another topic thread) is to:
1) Allow teams to use any permitted means to take notes...This might mean video recording or audio recording (if the judges allow), allowing more than just the captains to partake in the 5-10 min discussion, or perhaps setting up video conferences with the judges

2) Create a standard (perhaps "BTF approved") anonymous judges review sheet that will be collected by a BTF "officer". Example: BTF-da-Mundapreet goes to Bhangra Blasters Competition with 5 judges. He, in coordination with Bhangra Blasters organization committee, passes out an optional "Judges Review Sheet" to each of the captains. After the competition and subsequent discussion with the judges, each team is responsible for returning the Judges Review Sheet to BTF-da-Mundapreet. Names of judges are required...names of team who filled it is optional, but encouraged.

 

[hardeep_singh]

An idea i had along a similar vein was that judges should record their comments while they are watching a set, so they don't leave anything out and can justify their reasoning when asked.

from sheets that have been given to my teams, judges do write down things they like/didn't like, things that stand out so they can go back and remember what happened. I've even seen laptops being used because typing is faster than writing.

But making a video our audio recording of their commentary would allow judges to give their complete attention to watching the set and would also provide context to allow teams to understand the commentary n benefit from it more, comment sheet feedback kinda sucks.

 

[Kartik]

Recording judges meetings to review is awesome for the exact reason that Danny and Saab point out - trying to remember everything or scribble a bunch of notes invariably allows one to add their own biases when revisiting the experience. Always better to go back to the original experience than to hype it up in your mind.

That being said, we do that for our own learning purposes - making this more official with a recorded video would probably be pretty useful. The one thing I'd say is that the video should be given to the team which can then post it at their own discretion. These meetings are precious time to ask some very specific questions to improve the team and I think captains should feel free to do that without worrying about stating their questions/concerns eloquently for the Bhangra community.

 

[siddyp]

An idea i had along a similar vein was that judges should record their comments while they are watching a set, so they don't leave anything out and can justify their reasoning when asked.

from sheets that have been given to my teams, judges do write down things they like/didn't like, things that stand out so they can go back and remember what happened. I've even seen laptops being used because typing is faster than writing.

But making a video our audio recording of their commentary would allow judges to give their complete attention to watching the set and would also provide context to allow teams to understand the commentary n benefit from it more, comment sheet feedback kinda sucks.

i dont think judges take their eyes off, but they just write it down while watching. the writing comes in very interesting shapes and patterns lol. some may take their eyes off as some sheets do have straight lines written (or they got some mad writing in a straight line skills), but at least when I did it, my comments were scribbled in dif shapes and patterns and it helped me remember almost anything I needed to about a teams routine.

 

[sartajjudge]

It's a good idea. I'd be down for that.

 

[Ajay.H]

Bhangra Nation put up some of the Bulldog all-team judging session (at least I think thats what it is). You'll miss some if you don't understand Punjabi but it's a step! Starts around 18:00.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=8bfIsqJN_C8#t=1070s

1. Video recording definitely. Audio defeats the purpose of being able to being able to judge a specific judge.

2. Teams get the videos and are allowed to release at their own discretion. If we do this, we would want to really set a precedent to release your video unless you feel strongly against it. Also, I think I would prefer not releasing randomly into the Videos forum - I agree with it being a part of the media center with each comp that participates, so they're accessible as a reference and not being put out there SO much for "commenting" on.

 

[yraparla]

Honestly it's useless because the notion of a 5 min judging feedback session is useless (as Ram pointed out, so i won't rehash).


I like the idea of all the judges and all the captains in a room together. Discuss, question, take a solid 20-25 min. Tape THAT, so everyone behaves in terms of etiquette. Teams will then be able to play off of each other so everyone's feedback is consistent (and judges can't get away with telling every team they lost cause they weren't clean i.e. we have no solid feedback to give).

 

[hsdeol]

not all competitions even have judges meetings. i know of one comp that doesnt tell you who the judges are and you never have a meeting to figure out what you could have done better. i think if we want to change judging it has to start by setting a standard that every competition has to meet or it doesnt get the "btf stamp of approval" or whatever we're calling it. if we were to use BTF as a tool to keep everything on the circuit as transparent as possible, then some sort of btf representation at each comp could be used to make sure competitions are running at least at the standard that is set.

 

[faizan]

I have never found a judging feedback session useful.


They should really call it the "Team Bitching Session" because that's all that occurs. Read the scoresheet and comments, watch your team video, and use common sense. Judges don't need to explain their reasoning after all is said and done. It's a disservice to judges to force them to explain their reasoning. You got less points than the other team, so you lost, now go try harder next time.


The real critical point for judging and team communication should be BEFORE the competition, when you can set expectations and have a dialogue that is unpolluted by the team's loss. Team's should be given the opportunity to know what the judge expects, and judges should be given the opportunity to know what types of feedback teams want on the score sheets. All this, way before anyone steps foot on the stage.

 

[Saleem]

Taking Faizan's last paragraph further-- the night before a competition is not the time to clarify what is being judged. Choreo and practice is all done. As I've lobbied for in the past, judges should be actively involved in designing the rubric. If that's what I have to judge off of, I want to be comfortable with what it rewards and what it punishes. (I dont want a rubric, for example, that requires perfect synchronization and cleanliness at the expense of creative choreography or fluidic movement)

 

[faizan]

Just to clarify, by "before" i meant, months before.

 

[vmural2]

Taking Faizan's last paragraph further-- the night before a competition is not the time to clarify what is being judged. Choreo and practice is all done. As I've lobbied for in the past, judges should be actively involved in designing the rubric. If that's what I have to judge off of, I want to be comfortable with what it rewards and what it punishes. (I dont want a rubric, for example, that requires perfect synchronization and cleanliness at the expense of creative choreography or fluidic movement)

I agree with this. I am wholeheartedly NOT a fan of competition organizers designing the judging rubrics. Judges should be involved from the start, and not just someone you call 2 weeks before a competition. A lot of times (of course with a few exceptions) members on these committees, the same ones who are involved with picking the teams, designing the rubrics, picking credible judges, know jack shit about bhangra, the circuit, or dancing in general. If you ask me, judging should be transparent, along with the organization, and both should go hand in hand.

 

[Kaur]

This happened at Notorious Bhangra over the summer. All of the judges meetings before and after the competition were all audio recorded. When teams came in they were given the scores that each team had given them and also their overall ranking. Iam a huge fan of this, I have suggested it to competitions that I have been a part of. Some competitions are on board and others are not.

I also think that judges should explain what they meant in their 1 minute of feedback. Sometimes a judge cannot fully articulate exactly what they want and end up throwing around words which teams hold on to. I think a judge should provide detailed feedback once the videos are out and back up what they meant during their 1minute of feedback. I feel that teams appreciate this and also get teh opportunity to understand exactly what the judge was trying to say during that 1 minute.

 

[RsKderpu]

For judging, I had an idea but didn't want to put it out there do to the fact it isn't too great. Oh well, here it is.....

I agree with having 3 judges, (or however many a competition wants) that have experience. What if there was an additional judge. That additional judge could have a slight amount of bhangra experience in the past or none at all, but they're thought process of judging may be based on the set itself, overall, how clean it was based on the difficulty of it. Bringing in that inexperienced/slight experienced judge will make it so, in a sense, that the audience is judging the performance.


That may alter the judging and may have some teams feel satisfied (I may be wrong) that at least the difficulty of their set was taken into consideration.

Once again, this is just an idea that came to thought one day from what I had seen in the past.

 

[Saab]

Faizan, while I understand the process is flawed and is currently unfavorable, the elimination of the feedback session in the present environment is not feasible. Even with the pre-judges meeting, the communication that commits the judges to the way they said they were going to judge is eliminated without the post judges meeting. It also makes it incredibly hard to place liability on the judges.

The community, at this point, would need a much more transparent and open communication process of judging so that teams should know exactly how judges and the competition itself are going to judge teams or how they want to judge teams.

 

[faizan]

Good judging comments on the score sheet are more than enough feedback. I repeat, GOOD comments, not vague, incomprehensible ones. Just push the judges to be clear on their notes and comments.


If i place second, and my comments say "several mistakes noted, and jhummar form was too stiff," why isn't that enough? Do I really need a judge to explain that?