Judging Issues - Important points for teams/organizers

[Govind]

It was an honor to judge the Motor City Bhangra Competition this past weekend, and a privilege to judge alongside the former captains of PAU GADVASU and senior dancers on GGN Khalsa College. From the judges' standpoint, the competition was overall very well organized and congrats to Gary Khehra for putting together a sold out show featuring a strong group of elite teams.

I just wanted to give some general advice (for teams and organizers) to note regarding judging issues at competitions...

-Read the rubric, know your judges, and understand the emphasis of the competition well before applying to the event. Competitions vary significantly in their emphasis within the spectrum of folk and modern bhangra. The organizers in general try to do a good job of determining which teams will fit the bill of the competition when accepting/rejecting teams, but at the end of the day they are not the judges. You should not be applying to the competition or you should be actively engaging the judges/organizers about any concerns well in advance of the competition if you think the rubric disadvantages you. The judges most often do not make the rubric. Indeed, I think the judges should have input into the rubric, but the rubric is not going to dramatically change and is traditionally provided to you well in advance of the competition if not in the registration packet. You should have ample time to review this and while you can't overhaul your routine, you can make the revisions necessary that may cost you a (higher) placing in an already very tight line-up.

-Listen to the judges when you go to the precompetition meeting. For example, if you ask about judges opinions about using cones to mark off the stage, and the judges say you shouldn't use them, I'm not sure why you would still go ahead and use them. I must say we were quite amazed at why teams would knowingly disadvantage themselves by doing similar things going into a very strong line-up.

-Know your judges and the feedback they have given you at prior competitions and make changes they suggest. Some teams have done a phenomenal job of this (CMU, in particular, at this competition) and some teams you judge for the third time and they are making the same mistakes (jugni chaal, arm positions in dhamaal, etc.) that have been pointed out before and trust me, judges remember their feedback. If there is something that you don't understand, please ask and we are happy to show you.

-There will always be a few teams who are upset about not "winning" at the competition...My advice to them is that after the show is over, it is poor form to complain to the competition organizers about placings. Judges are here for a reason. We have a long history of transparency, travel long distances to judge to ultimately help you improve for future performances. This is what the feedback session is for. The organizers may always provide the team captains with the email addresses of the judges for additional clarifications or feedback. We are more than happy to do this as it is our duty and responsibility!

-It is also poor form to not show up to the post-competition judges' meeting. We take time out after the competition (we stuck around at the venue past 1:30am this time) to sit down and discuss your routine that you took months to prepare and for teams to not come is disrespectful and shows a lackadaisical attitude toward even your own performance. You should contact the organizers if there are time constraints b/c I know there are always a few teams that end up waiting around forever and we are usually happy make arrangements to meet you or communicate with you later. We keep our eyes and ears peeled and everything from comments, opinions shared with organizers and other dancers do trickle back to us after the competition. If you complain about not "winning" and didn't show up to the meeting to learn why, that looks highly unprofessional.

Thank you for a wonderful show and congratulations to all teams who performed this weekend. It was truly an honor to serve on the judging panel for such spectacular performances.

Govind

 

[faizan]

hey Govind,

Can you post the rubric? Thanks.

 

[KushK]

-Listen to the judges when you go to the precompetition meeting. For example, if you ask about judges opinions about using cones to mark off the stage, and the judges say you shouldn't use them, I'm not sure why you would still go ahead and use them. I must say we were quite amazed at why teams would knowingly disadvantage themselves by doing similar things going into a very strong line-up.

There was no mention of points being docked. They simply said "don't let the markers be a distraction". Not every team has the luxury of practicing 3-4 times a week. Yes judges travel from great distances to judge, so do the teams to perform. Docking teams for markers is ridiculous.

-It is also poor form to not show up to the post-competition judges' meeting. We take time out after the competition (we stuck around at the venue past 1:30am this time) to sit down and discuss your routine that you took months to prepare and for teams to not come is disrespectful and shows a lackadaisical attitude toward even your own performance. You should contact the organizers if there are time constraints b/c I know there are always a few teams that end up waiting around forever and we are usually happy make arrangements to meet you or communicate with you later. We keep our eyes and ears peeled and everything from comments, opinions shared with organizers and other dancers do trickle back to us after the competition. If you complain about not "winning" and didn't show up to the meeting to learn why, that looks highly unprofessional.

We were told the meeting was at the hotel by the staff. After waiting for an hour, we were then told the meeting was over and had been held at the venue. I think a few teams might have had this problem and then head no means of transportation to get back.

I also want to add Govind, that all judges should be present at a pre-judges meeting the night before the competition to answer the teams' concerns. If a judge is picked, that should also be one of their duties. If that judge is not able to make it, they should make an effort to then speak to the teams sometime before the show to address any concerns a team may have.

 

[Govind]

We gave all our scoresheets to the organizers, but digging through my email, I think this is a version of the rubric after the organizers split the comp up into live and music, but I would defer to Gary for what the comp organizers actually gave to teams: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1chwQ9kvLS9XIs1fvuNI_ZTJqSB0YIdH5ett-58N8Cq0/edit?usp=sharing


Ankush, I didn't single out any one team in my comments b/c they applied to several so don't take things too personally. We are more than happy to give you feedback after the comp no matter when and I'm sorry that your team didn't hear the MC announce that meeting would be held at the venue immediately after. You are right that all judges should be at the precomp meeting, but my flight delay prevented me from being there which I felt quite bad about. That being said, the panel spoke as one, I was fully updated on everything that was discussed, and there was no difference of opinion on any of the issues. Not to mention, you have had access to us for weeks by FB, email, and through the organizers prior to the competition.


I also didn't say that teams who used markers had "points docked" explicitly for this reason as I do recognize it was not on the rubric however it does fall under Artistic elements and at the end of the day it was brought up as a point of clarification in the judges meeting. I think there has already been a lengthy discussion on the use of markers on BTF which need not be repeated here. The bottom line is, when it comes to the artful presentation of bhangra, markers work against you. I also think you misinterpreted the statement regarding distraction, b/c it not only applies to the presentation of bhangra and how it appears, but applies to dancers being distracted. Dancers should use other team members to place and space themselves, and not be looking down at markers to do so. According to the information that I got, there was more that was said about this in the team meeting that I don't think it's fair to encompass as "they simply said..." Teams have props that they often use as markers, but if they have a prop set up on stage, they must use it.

 

[Mr Sandhu]

do you have a team (or a performance by a team) which would receive a perfect score at this specific competition?

 

[Govind]

It sounds strange, but no team would receive a perfect score in front of a panel of well-selected judges. While it's important for judging to be consistent, the judges should not always agree on everything as debate on various parts of performances (the way a performance is put together, skill displayed etc. and NOT just based on mistakes) is healthy and necessary and not everyone is going to think the exact same way.

 

[yraparla]

We gave all our scoresheets to the organizers, but digging through my email, I think this is a version of the rubric after the organizers split the comp up into live and music, but I would defer to Gary for what the comp organizers actually gave to teams: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1chwQ9kvLS9XIs1fvuNI_ZTJqSB0YIdH5ett-58N8Cq0/edit?usp=sharing

The rubric is a bit misleading as only 30 points directly correlate to 'traditional' bhangra, and in that the 10 points of "Authenticity" should probably be gimme points. I can't imagine why any team on that stage would not get a 10/10 in that category. So this comp was traditional in spirit and judges, but the rubric was more balanced than MCB alludes. I think the fact that you have India-affiliated judges for instance is the single biggest factor for 'traditionality' in the judging, but the rubric itself is more agnostic.


Govind, I'm a huge critic of having traditional-related categories in a rubric because I think they serve no purpose anymore. I'd be curious to hear the panels thought process on how to judge. Each team has a different style for instance, so were the judges looking for India-style and execution or were you more focused on universal aesthetics for bhangra that don't change team to team (straight backs, bouncing shoulders, high knees, low jugni chaal, etc).


For a category like Authenticity, what would be some criticisms to receive less than 10? Every team now has multiple props, beautiful vardiyaan (no more satin everything), and plenty of segments. Perhaps props usage could dock a point, but that's more execution. The authenticity category seems to be more about the 'set'- i.e. the planning and construction of the overall performance more than the actual execution. Would love to hear what the India guys thought!

 

[Govind]

Swi, you bring up some great points which I will clarify here. You mention things that don't change from team to team...but there are many things that caught our eye! Here are examples of specific critiques we gave teams: going into a low 2nd position plie for jugni isn't enough, it's called a chaal because your legs need to be moving too with each beat not just be fixed; knees don't just need to be high, but the direction in which they point side or to the front matter too; two-thirds of dancers still do not do jhummar using their shoulders; also, foot work should correspond to the dhol beats (specifically see how dancers are doing Mirza - there are variations of mirza taal and the footwork should correspond to the variations in dhol beats) - this is easier to show than to explain. These are all elements of traditionality that dancers have yet to perfect and we should not assume that these are universal aesthetics that all teams do. Of course these are all examples of execution-related issues that certainly do make-up traditionality.


Authenticity: This is seemingly an all-encompassing section and many items that may fall under here may also be referenced in individual sections, but things I deducted points for in this section included: ancillary people on the side of the stage taking props off the stage and placing props on the stage for the team in the middle of the performance; we also looked at the construction of the set and planning and the flow between segments i.e. transitions into jhummar; improper holding of props (that included not just whether teams held their khoonde too high, but whether they executed the move shown in NJ's vid that manjot posted (side view) at 4:36-4:40) properly (i.e. NJ spread their arms out on their khunde but there were teams who just held the khunde closer in). I did note the use of markers in this section as well. I also deducted points for authenticity if a routine ended with dancers dancing off the stage, and a dancer stopped dancing before completely getting off the stage.


However, Rajbir and Satinderjit also pointed out deficiencies in authenticity in vardiyaan in many teams whose vardiyaan would be considered "folk" by the general bhangra community (much to the surprise of those teams' captains). Another part of authenticity that they counted was whether all the dancers were on the stage for the whole time or if new dancers joined in the middle.

 

[yraparla]

Thanks Govind, I think it would be very beneficial to collect some of the comments for wider consumption. There seems to be a lot of good info that came from the judges, it would nice to share it. For instance what were the specific vardi deficiencies, what were all the improper execution comments etc.

These are all elements of traditionality that dancers have yet to perfect and we should not assume that these are universal aesthetics that all teams do. Of course these are all examples of execution-related issues that certainly do make-up traditionality.

I'm not assuming all teams do them, I'm assuming all teams can be held responsible for them. Therefore I put them in execution as you mention. A universal bhangra aesthetic is by definition something I expect from any team regardless of their specific style. I suppose your argument then is that not all teams consider these things as part of their style, and thus it's not universal. That's a fair point, which then forces us to really ask what makes bhangra unique.

but whether they executed the move shown in NJ's vid that manjot posted (side view) at 4:36-4:40) properly

But isn't this execution by your own words? Why would it need to be in authenticity category? Are we distinguishing style from execution? So if a team all execute a step the same way but not 'correctly' then we dock a single style point and leave execution with full marks for the move? It's all very nebulous which is why I find it hard for teams and judges to navigate. How can judges convey to teams every single detail of what they 'should' and 'should not' do when it's so arbitrary.

I'm not that interested in the specific judging for this comp, I'm just hashing out my thoughts on 'traditionality' in judging so I can learn more. MCB wanted music teams that executed like India teams. That's fine, it was clear to anyone following the comp, clear from the judges choice, clear from their rhetoric. Teams should have been expecting that so it's not a problem. I just think even at MCB the rubric is nebulous and doesn't support the goal. You have traditional india judges, give them a rubric that is clear for teams and for judges where points are going to be lost.

I would have had judges in this case have a style section where they can take off overall style, but make clear that execution was judged in relation to dancers on stage. So if everyone did a move a particular way that a judge didn't like (chaal with just upper body shimmy instead of feet moving), then the judge could dock a style point so it's clear to the team they executed a piece of choreography, but the judge didn't like the style.

This situation is just tough on everyone, clarity is as important as transparency otherwise it's a lot of noise and misunderstandings. The rubric imo should allow teams to do whatever they want (i.e. gimmicks, stunts, extra dancers, markers) so long as the main dancers are on stage the full time with solid style (defined here by India standards)

 

[Govind]

In my opinion, the bottomline answer to your main points is that judges should design the rubric and ultimately be answerable to that rubric. Ideally, competitions should pick judges prior to sending out registration packets and that who the judges are is just as important as having the rubric prior to applying to the competition (which should be approved and finalized by the judges before sending it out to the teams).

And yes I think those specific comments you referenced about khunde holding are better assessed under execution.