Judging

[Ranjit]

I know this is a long post but I'll really appreciate if you guys read it and posted your thoughts.

Ok so after csun I had to hunt down the judges (like you have to do at most competitions) to get some input from them. The first judge I found was a younger local guy who I’ve known for awhile. He was fairly helpful; he used the generic critiques – cleanliness, traditionality; which is complete B.S. because if I asked the judges to show me sialkoti I’m sure most wouldn’t be able to. He also said that one of our girls had a chunni problem (her chunni came off one side of her head during a stunt). Now if you’re going to judge a chunni coming undone then shouldn’t you also judge puggan not being tied correctly? Because aside from us and people’s, not a single team, including everyone that placed had even decent puggan.

Next, we talked to an older “uncle” judge. This guy has been judging for awhile now, he was at socal last week and he also judges bruin, I think. According to him, when he danced in Punjab, his team placed 3 times or something like that and he used to practice for 2 hours and then run 3 miles. With a resume like that you would expect some good critiques, so we asked him how we can improve our act. He thought for awhile, he asked us what our spot was (keep in mind we are still in uniform), we said fourth, he thought some more and said this: we could have lost points for only using kundey and katos but not sapps. He said at times our jordiyan weren’t defined enough. Then he said that even though members of jatt made mistakes, their style was slow and that made it traditional. The whole time we’re talking to this guy, which was a long time, I’m thinking “holy crap I can’t believe this guy has judged at all these comps.” After judging all these competitions and even supposedly dancing in India, all you have to tell me is that we need to use sapps? This guy is supposed to be the expert, he is given the authority to say who the best team is and this is all the advice he can come up with.

I think the worst impression I got from both judges was the lack of seriousness. The bhangra scene has gotten very competitive the past couple years and we all work our asses off to look good on stage and I feel like these “judges” have a responsibility to at least stay after the comp for 2 hours or so to give us some sort of feedback . They don’t have to sit and have a long drawn out discussion but at least give us our score sheets with some LEGIT criticisms. The fact that they always seem to dash off into the night after the show is over makes me think they have nothing to say and therefore are not qualified. If a judge cannot explain his or her scores to teams then they should not be judging. If he or she can’t explain all the judging criteria they should not be judging. I don’t see why we as teams put up with this type of crap. Why are we not allowed to talk to judges after the competition? Why don’t we get to see our scores right away – in every other type of sport where judges are used all the scores are always shown, why not for bhangra? Why are winning teams’ scores not announced as their placing is called? Why are we still being judged by people who don’t keep up with the bhangra scene regularly?

Some of you were saying that letting members of BTF judge comps would be hard because some could be biased. At the rate comps have been going, the obvious lack of knowledge the judges have ALSO counts as a bias. I think judging panels need to start consisting of less uncles and aunties who supposedly danced in india during a time before we were even born, and more ex-team captains or people who have atleast danced in North America. Committees should maybe try interviewing judges ahead of time with questions that we can come up with in order to see if they are qualified. And if teams are allowed to talk to all the judges (not one representative) after the competition and they cannot explain why they gave a certain team more points than any bias will naturally be uncovered and that person should be exposed. Teams are always critical of the way competitions are run but for some reason nobody is really that critical of judges, I think it’s time we changed that.

This is not meant to be totally directed toward csun, but all competitions, aside from the ones that are actually trying to improve judging. AVAP seems to be on the right track with their panel of senior and junior judges, hopefully other competitions will soon follow.

Ranjit Sandhu
Rangla Punjab

 

[Shubh]

I agree. Win or lose, we have always looked to judges for critiques so we could improve for future competitions. The majority of the competitions I have been to don't provide judges score sheets to the teams. One exception is Bhangra Masti who for the past two years have either scanned and emailed us our score sheets or even let us see the actual score sheets right after the competition. It has the break down for points received out of total points in each category and then judge's comments on the bottom. One thing I noticed is that there was maybe 1-2 comments max (if any) on these score sheets. Saying we received 6/10 for our intro tells us we need to improve but doesn't necessarily say how. I can understand because judge's don't always have time to write comments. Especially when there is sometimes only a minute between teams. By the time they fill out the points...the next team is starting up on stage. And if you ask them after the show they probably don't remember. Watching 10-12 bhangra teams in 2-3 hours is a lot and remembering what problems each team had isn't easy to do.

Another alternative to this issue is what I witnessed at Groundshaker '08. The "Judging Panel" set up they had critiqued each team after every single performance. Watching the show as a spectator, I was able to understand the pros/cons of each team that competed. The teams were able to hear directly from the judges what they needed to improve. However the issue with this system is some teams may complain and say its not right to be ripped on in front of a packed audience.

 

[colias]

I agree. How can teams improve without knowing what their faults were on stage? What if a team was perfect, had an outfit mishap, and didn't place? I agree that ex dancers/captains who have been in the bhangra scene recently would be more qualified than a lot of the judges that are the dancers' actual uncles, and/or know nothing about bhangra.

 

[Mowsuf]

I can't stand bharatnatiyam teachers as judges, dance studio instructors as judges, just because you know an INDIAN DANCE, doesn't mean you know how to judge or perform bhangra. It is not a simple flailing of the arms and legs....

couldnt agree more

 

[Jeet]

i definately agree with u ranjit paji but heres the thing. if u want a pure traditional judge straight from india in order to judge you right, dont expect your girls chunni to go here and there from her head, dont matter if its a stunt or during a routine. let me explain, In india this is how judges judge a traditional teams like pau, daviet, engineers, etc.
- if your chadra is higher then 6 inches (hath di ek gidth) from your ankle, they will drop the points.
- if your kendha's dori (thing that hangs in the back) comes in front of you (on the chest or shoulder) during the routine/performance , they will drop the points.
- if your arm phuman's comes down to your wrist's, they will drop the points.
- if your dress is wrinkly, dont expect more then 5 out of 10. etc etc

and not using saaps in your routine? come on paji. i have no idea how can you place without using saaps.
but i agree with you about these stupid judges. and organizers ya'll need to take this seriously because tuhada kush janda ni tey sada kush renda ni.

 

[yraparla]

:sigh: there's always a topic every couple of weeks like this. I really feel like this forum is tapped out on the judging issue.

one of the more massive ones:
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php?topic=2324.0

everyone has an opinion but very few people realize how difficult it is to get judging that satisfies everyone. Instead of griping after every comp about the judging, how about we pick the competitions with good judging and highlight them for future organizers? How about compiling a list of good judges or people trusted to be judges (there was a topic on this already that only had like 5 posts)?

because it's easier to bitch and moan and it's a lot harder to do something productive. It's not easy for organizers to find judges and then bring them to a competition consistently. They do their best and usually it's not enough and that's because the circuit is in growing too fast for stable judging.

As the people from the past 4-5 years get older and more involved we'll start to see better judges coming through I feel.


I'm not saying that what happened to RP (and maybe other teams there) wasn't unprofessional or unfair, but it's hardly unique and hard to fix.

 

[Sukhdip S. Chhina]

Jeet Bhai, when ranjit was talking about the chunni issue he meant that he understands that the girls chunni came down, but he was also saying if u wanna judge a girls chunni you should also judge if teams tie proper pughs. By this he was comparing starched to fan turles and also the base tieing of the pugh. I agree with all of what you said Ranjit. The teams should be able to talk to the judges after the comp. to ask about where and why they lost points so in the future they can improve. I dont see this happening at any comp., unless us teams demand of this from the comp. organizers beforehand.

 

[yraparla]

The teams should be able to talk to the judges after the comp. to ask about where and why they lost points so in the future they can improve. I dont see this happening at any comp., unless us teams demand of this from the comp. organizers beforehand.

To be honest this is a pretty standard thing at the major comps I know of....I know Burgh judges stayed for really late after the competition to talk to teams and I'm sure it happens at Boston, blowout, etc.

 

[Sukhdip S. Chhina]

When i said i dont see it happening at any comp. I was talking about improvement happening at comps toward this situation. I know there are some comps out there that actually let teams talk to judges afterwards and in those comps the judging is usually not a problem.

 

[pluthra]

I don't know if this has been brought up or not, but would it help if the host had to announce how many points each team got. Like on dance shows when they announce the number of points the contestants received from the judges....or like in the Olympics. I mean I dont know how it would work out if the whole entire audience knew how many points they received, but it might help to make the judges be really accurate about how they do score each team.

 

[sorethighs]

Paul I've seen that done at competitions before, but it has come off as hard to understand and just kind of weird. You don't know the scale, don't know how many points could be alloted.

 

[avtarchana]

Hi All !!

I really 'LUV' to participate in the issue regarding 'Judging' and want to share my thoughts / experiences with you, only after going thru the entire postings / views in this head.. so please wait for a day or so..

BEST WISHES !!

-AC/Chd.

 

[Kanvar]

i think it would be tight if each judge was given a tape recorder and a cassette for each team...while the performance is going on they make audio comments and write their score sheets. at the end of the comp, each team is given an envelope with their score sheets and cassette tapes.

idk just something i remember from when i did music competitions in high school with jazz and symphony. really helpful in terms of getting critiqued.

the only major drawback from an organizer's standpoint is that you have to get really knowledgeable judges as it goes on record what they say.

also i wouldn't mind an extra minute or two between teams to allow to judges more time to reflect and give more thoughtful scores. i know this extrapolates to an additional 12min (if 1min extra for 12 teams say), but hey your judging won't be effed up.

 

[singhgugu]

i think it would be tight if each judge was given a tape recorder and a cassette for each team...while the performance is going on they make audio comments and write their score sheets. at the end of the comp, each team is given an envelope with their score sheets and cassette tapes.

idk just something i remember from when i did music competitions in high school with jazz and symphony. really helpful in terms of getting critiqued.

the only major drawback from an organizer's standpoint is that you have to get really knowledgeable judges as it goes on record what they say.

also i wouldn't mind an extra minute or two between teams to allow to judges more time to reflect and give more thoughtful scores. i know this extrapolates to an additional 12min (if 1min extra for 12 teams say), but hey your judging won't be effed up.

they did this at some band/music competitions in my district

its actually pretty helpful........
but the thing is those competitions were relatively quiet


with all that noise in a bhangra comp, it would probably be difficult to listen to what the judges are saying

also
sometimes i see zee tv sa re ga ma pa judges using a headphone
maybe they can wear those headphone mics..(i don't know what they're officially called)
those can be linked to the audio system in the auditorium so the judges would be less distracted by noise and it would be easier for a recording system to work.
just a thought

 

[Ashveer]

I think this thread more so than others shows the ways in which imagine bhangra to be one way in Punjab, which is different than it was in the 60s/70s/80s (the time from when the judges are coming from). Its a simple fact that "traditionality" has not been maintained pre and post partition. A funny example is the video that someone posted of that uncle dancing to seeti. He's respected in the bhangra circuit and is attributed to creating stunts. Not bringing them back from Pakistan, but making them. Just food for thought.

 

[- Raja -]

Honestly, I think the problem starts when you have one traditional judge then you have one whos modern like a dance class teacher.

 

[SunnySingh827]

I like the idea of having multiple judges with different areas of expertise, some more modern and some more traditional, but in the end, judging is subjective, and every team works incredibly hard to do what they do. We dance on stage to put on a show and have fun with audience while sporting our culture, judges should reward creativity, uniquity, coordination, energy, and a commitment to real bhangra moves. Teams should goal to win, if they do win or place great for them, if they don't but they feel good about their performance then there is no point in coming onto BTF and complaining about it, understand that judging isn't and never will be perfect, and be proud of what you did. Keep raising the bar but don't let it get too serious.

 

[Desi Dhamaka]

Hi for Desi Dhamaka we used Pashi Malik, Vijay Agrawal, Atinder Cloty, Ben Koffel. I must say in all my years of doing this show I have never received so much feedback on how great our Judging Panel was. I must say that using Uncles and Auntys are lot more difficult because they have left the Bhangra scene or may not know the current trends. Using people on BTF is fine. But making sure that Biased is not there is very important. The above 4 Judges were brutally honest and 100% knowledgeable. We let all team captains meet with the Judges before and after the competition. I eblieve that way the teams get a clear understanding of what the Judges are looking for and After the comp they get the critique from the Judges. Teams need this to become stronger performers and to learn from their mistakes. Just my input

 

[Ranjit]

I think some of you might have gotten the wrong idea from my post. I don't think we need totally traditional judging. I understand that they're are many modern teams(like pretty much every team in so cal) that should get recognition. I just think the judging system should advance just like bhangra has. It seems like many competitions will pick up a judge without checking for solid qualifications or even checking to see if the judge understands the different elements that go into making an act. For example, everybody always talks about graceful dancing or dancing with some sort of style and style is almost always in the criteria. But I'd be willing to bet that many of the judges today wouldn't be able to give you a decent definition of grace or style.

Like I said, I don't think all judges should favor traditionality, but they should atleast know what it is and should be to differentiate between a modern team and a traditional team and their reasoning can't be "this team didn't use saaps, so they are not traditional." The committee's need to take it upon themselves to research who they pick to make sure they have qualified judges. And after the competitions are over, the captains should be allowed to speak to all the judges to get feedback from them. Team captains shouldn't take this opportunity to bitch about not winning but a way to hear critiques to better their teams performance. This also allows for captains to call out judges who don't really know what they're talking about and should not be judging.

 

[Sandhu_a]

I think that everyone who always complains about tradition judging should actually try to go to all out traditional bhangra competitions.. i.e. bakers field teams (only ones iv seen) but yea if your going to asking a judge to do a certain move thats not right because he may not know that one move or he may have forgot.. Some old school coaches never even tell the name of the move but they just teach it. and touching up on the fact of choosing the judge. i think the judges should consist of both older and younger judges because you have to know that they have been seeing bhangra for pretty much a while... and the younger judges can judge on songs and what not.

I think the judging sheets arent usually released because then all the teams want to come talk to each judge and tell them that THE TEAM was right..like comon the judge is judging and oviously he/she is qualified or somewhat qualified to do so
...watch the mh1 bhangra teams and how they judge those are traditional teams.. live everything its a pretty good comp.