Judging

[ameetkhabra]

So, Ive only been reading/posting on BTF for a little while now. I have come across many discussions when judges & rubric have been questioned, but Ive always kind of wonder what everyone preferred when it came to the number of Judges.

So what I mean is:

Elite had 2(I believe) Judges and then had competing teams evaluating each other (the 2 judges had more weight in determining the winner)
or
having 7 judges and discarding the highest & lowest score for every team

etc

what do you guys prefer/think is more effective ?

 

[Saab]

I think Elite would have been more transparent if all teams scores were in account and highest and lowest dropped but.....

I think its not perfect yet, and that there really is no perfect way to judge now. A lot of people interpret rubrics differently, and the competition itself should take a mandate upon themselves to let both judges and teams know what they want and state specifically what they want.

PersonallyI think 5 judges would be good, with maybe someone from the competition coordinating what they want in regards to judging.

Most of the times you know what your getting when applying to a competition, but thanks to the diversity of bhangra, your always going to find different systems and different approaches which work at different competitions. We live in a world with flawed judging mechanisms, but things such as Transparency and Communication will let you know what your getting into, which is what teams want.

 

[blanca_c]

I haven't been around long at all either, but from my experiences and internationally-known things like the olympics, I think a large number of judges (like 6 or 7) with highest and lowest scores dropped might be most effective. No matter what the case (even if teams evaluate each other), I'm definitely a fan of dropping the lowest and highest scores. While numerically pushing the scores to median values, it also helps judges keep in mind to give moderate honest scores.

Just my two cents, but again, I am not very familiar with the various judging methods for comps.

 

[ameetkhabra]

I haven't been around long at all either, but from my experiences and internationally-known things like the olympics, I think a large number of judges (like 6 or 7) with highest and lowest scores dropped might be most effective. No matter what the case (even if teams evaluate each other), I'm definitely a fan of dropping the lowest and highest scores. While numerically pushing the scores to median values, it also helps judges keep in mind to give moderate honest scores.

Just my two cents, but again, I am not very familiar with the various judging methods for comps.

I completely agree with you, I find that a lot of people like the idea of 7 Judges with dropping the highest & lowest score but at the same time there are equally as many people who are not a fan of it.

For me personally I like the idea of 5 Judges, I just think 5 is a good number

 

[avtarchana]

My dear friends,

Thank you very much for starting the topic of judging as all teams are dependent on fair judgement and it's prime responsibility of the organisers to have qualified judges for the same.

In my opinion there should be just Two or three gud judges, instead of making a long list and that is inappropriate according to me or can say according to my experience in North American Judgements. Minimum number of qualified judges can discuss the performance of a particular team after their performance while in the case of six/seven judges..it is very hard to discuss the things with other judges in a single row and that too in the dark..Suppose, I am on the one corner, how can I share the things with the fifth, sixth or the seventh judge !!

Next, the system of taking the judgement sheets after every performance by the organisers is also not healthy as if the judges have marked more marks for a particular team in between..its hard to give more marks to the best/deserving team(s) after that..

In conclusion, I am finishing with the extract that there should be minimun judges for the competition so that they can discuss the things better after each & every performance and the score sheets should be with the judges, till end, so that they can make amendments according to the situation as it is not a lottery system - it's day/night labour of the participating teams and no one is allowed to play with the sentiments of the Bhangra Artistes..World-Wide..

GOOD LUCK !!

-AC/Chd.

 

[J Hayer]

I don't know much about how getting judges for competitions work, but they are professionals too, and having 7 judges for a competition also has budget implications which maybe easy for us to disregard, but are at times deciding factors for comps

 

[avtarchana]

One more experience I really luv to share with you...

Once, I was one of the 6-7 Judges at a competition in North America, few years ago..a very gud and deserving team asked me from which angle they were dropped and I was helpless to reply as I marked maximum marks to them and other might have given them less.

It was mine Judgment / Experience and it was very hard for me to reply as I was not the only one.. it was according to the so called 'Point System' of Bhangra Competition Organisers. I saw the entire team weeping and that hurts me a lot lot.. and I can understand the sentiments of that deserving team n about the emotions of a hard worked team and that lost the competition through the hands / decisions of the Judges like a music teacher or competition sponsor, who have not even performed/danced Bhangra in their entire life..

Though, I have experience of spending 3-4 decades in performing Bhangra at various Bhangra competitions in entire India, conducting International Bhangra Workshops in Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, learning Contemporary dance/Choreography at the prestigious Laban Centre of Dance in London and making Judgments in India, especially in Canada and the United States of America, it really hurts me a lot when the Judgments/decisions are given by the Lottery System !!

-AC/Chd.

 

[lavesh]

One more experience I really luv to share with you...

Once, I was one of the 6-7 Judges at a competition in North America, few years ago..a very gud and deserving team asked me from which angle they were dropped and I was helpless to reply as I marked maximum marks to them and other might have given them less.

It was mine Judgment / Experience and it was very hard for me to reply as I was not the only one.. it was according to the so called 'Point System' of Bhangra Competition Organisers. I saw the entire team weeping and that hurts me a lot lot.. and I can understand the sentiments of that deserving team n about the emotions of a hard worked team and that lost the competition through the hands / decisions of the Judges like a music teacher or competition sponsor, who have not even performed/danced Bhangra in their entire life..

Though, I have experience of spending 3-4 decades in performing Bhangra at various Bhangra competitions in entire India, conducting International Bhangra Workshops in Czech Republic, Bulgaria, Hungary, Greece, learning Contemporary dance/Choreography at the prestigious Laban Centre of Dance in London and making Judgments in India, especially in Canada and the United States of America, it really hurts me a lot when the Judgments/decisions are given by the Lottery System !!

-AC/Chd.

kya baat hai avtar ji....competitions organizers, listen carefully....pleaseeeeee bring more judges like avtar ji to competitions, judges of his caliber not only know proper bhangra (better than most people in NA), but they ALSO take judging very seriously, and are thus a major asset to helping bhangra grow in our communities

 

[avtarchana]

Thank you very much my dear Lavesh !!

On the Punjab Online too, I insisted many times for the same and since I watched no amendments by the organsiers there..dropped my ideas to visit the Canada and the United States !!

With Lots of Luv..

-AC/Chd

 

[avtarchana]

Sorry, one more thing to share with you my dear friends..

During the Judgments there, I saw Judges giving first preference to the served tea/snacks etc. and taking with each & everyone about their business/family etc..They are Hon. Judges chosen by the organisers and should not do such act. Teams are too much dependent on their fair decisions.

When your this friend is on Judgement, at a particular championship, even eye is stagnant and about tea/snacks, never bothered. We are there to judge the performances and not to have tea/snacks etc..as such things are secondary. Just one eye lid drop can skip the positive/negative points of a team and we are there to Judge and not to have tea/snacks or to discuss the busines/familys things at that prime time..

I also watched few judges start dancing/singing with the team and that too is inappropriate..

I hope my Co-judges take care of this in future, PLEASE.

BEST WISHES to all of you !!

-AC/Chd.

 

[kinnell]

We need to put Avtar Chana on Vent. I cannot fathom how awesome that would be.

 

[dheerja]

This thread just made my day. AC we love you.

 

[blanca_c]

I haven't been around long at all either, but from my experiences and internationally-known things like the olympics, I think a large number of judges (like 6 or 7) with highest and lowest scores dropped might be most effective. No matter what the case (even if teams evaluate each other), I'm definitely a fan of dropping the lowest and highest scores. While numerically pushing the scores to median values, it also helps judges keep in mind to give moderate honest scores.

Just my two cents, but again, I am not very familiar with the various judging methods for comps.

I completely agree with you, I find that a lot of people like the idea of 7 Judges with dropping the highest & lowest score but at the same time there are equally as many people who are not a fan of it.

For me personally I like the idea of 5 Judges, I just think 5 is a good number

@ameetkhabra: You've got me rethinking about the number 5. 5 IS a good number, but after dropping scores, then only 3 judges' scores will be used.

@everyone: Do you think points should standalone after scoresheets are completed, or should judges be able to discuss the scoresheets and perhaps override a result if, in retrospect, they misjudged? For example, if a good performance comes after a significantly sloppy performance and the judges actually score it higher than they meant to, should they be able to discuss if they think a team deserves to place even if the scores don't add up? Or take a team down from placing if they scored too high?

And thanks to avtar for pointing out some things we don't necessarily see; yes, teams are dependent on and appreciative of fair judging.

 

[kinnell]

My dear bro Dheerja !!
Thank you very much for the same.
BEST WISHES !!
-AC/ Chd.

Damn Dheerja, even with a profile picture, you got mistaken for a dude! Ouch.

 

[Sido90]

@everyone: Do you think points should standalone after scoresheets are completed, or should judges be able to discuss the scoresheets and perhaps override a result if, in retrospect, they misjudged? For example, if a good performance comes after a significantly sloppy performance and the judges actually score it higher than they meant to, should they be able to discuss if they think a team deserves to place even if the scores don't add up? Or take a team down from placing if they scored too high?

I'm also curious about this. I personally think that discussion is necessary- especially if all the judges are not in unanimous agreement about who should win. However, I can also see the other side where one more aggresive judge can sway all the others. I'd like to hear what the majority opinion is.

Also, I want to hear what everyones opinion is about meeting the judges after the competition- I think that it could be really beneficial- but I also see it being awkward for the judges having to explain why they made a particular decision- I mean, the teams that don't place will always be upset and in some cases, feel like they've been jipped. It also becomes logistically hard for the competition organizers because you have to get the teams to the after party as soon as possible and having the teams meet with the judges can be quite time consuming, I'd imagine. Another problem I could see is that, if a competition repeats teams as well as a judge- wouldn't it be a conflict of interest- like say Judge A meets with all the teams and one particular team got along really well with the Judge- the following year, it could be said that the judge is no longer an unbiased judge. In a city where the Bhangra scene isn't very active, it is almost impossible to have brand new judges year after year. Again, I understand how it can be really beneficial for teams, but is it really necessary? or is there an alternative?

 

[Bharathi]

In my personal opinion I think that judges meeting after scorecards have been handed in is counterintuitive, then you might as well have no scorecards and a big judges discussion afterwards. One judge might sway the others, or "majority rules" while scorecards help keep things more objective. Having been in this position in the past where actual scorecards were overridden by a judge's deliberation after the fact, I think it's not a great idea. I can see the point to be made where people would want a deliberation because of the order of performances but hopefully judges are objective enough to work through that.

 

[Manjot]

My dear bro Dheerja !!
Thank you very much for the same.
BEST WISHES !!
-AC/ Chd.

Damn Dheerja, even with a profile picture, you got mistaken for a dude! Ouch.

I freaking LOL'd

 

[dheerja]

My dear bro Dheerja !!
Thank you very much for the same.
BEST WISHES !!
-AC/ Chd.

Damn Dheerja, even with a profile picture, you got mistaken for a dude! Ouch.

Sigh, it happens.

 

[avtarchana]

My dear friends..

I am really very sorry about saying Dheerja as my bro but she is my great sister.. WOW !!

Next, it is gud to meet the judges after the performance/result, but without score sheets it is really hard for all of us to discuss about a particular team performance as there are more than 10-12 teams and the organisers take the score sheet(s) after each performance.

While I was in Seattle to Judge the Bhangra Bash, the teams came to me and asked from which angle they are out. I say sorry as I was not the only judge and the decision of other judges was also there, So the more judges and it is more complex to discuss with the participating teams as I gave maximum marks to a particular team and other might have given them less. So I should again declare that it is just a point/lottery system and no judge is to be blamed.

Even in the dark, I try to note the positive/negative points of the particular team so that I can discuss with them after the programme. When score cards/sheets are not with us, it is very hard to discuss the performance of 10-12 or even more teams.