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Launch: Union of Bhangra Judges (New Updates)

hardeep_singh

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,464
Proudly, I'll be the first one to say that this is a stupid idea. Not only stupid, but also a bit condescending. Who gave you the right to become a certification committee? Are you elected? No, right? So stop feeding your garbage agenda to everyone. The best teams have always been, and always will be the ones that laugh at community agendas like this. STFU. Unionize judging? What fucking planet are you on? You think you're going to control the trajectory of this dance? Off what fucking license? Fuck this. Bye.
i have an aversion towards the excessive douchiness commonly expressed on this forum by amancheema, but on this matter i have to say i agree with his sentiment wholeheartedly. i've chosen to forgo criticism on this because it view it(ubj) as futile and having no long term impact on the circuit. i can see a lot of work was put into it but no matter how much this ubj agenda gets pushed, it won't be a factor in how the circuit evolves. i appreciate bhangra, what i've never appreciated about the circuit is the elitism, the popular few who categorized themselves as the points of authority in the field of north american bhangra. my conduct over the yrs on this forum has been partially focused on undermining what i perceived as elitism. bhangra is a lok nach, dance of the people, the people will always control how it evolves, no cabal of misguided individuals will ever be able to enforce their views on those who chose to express their appreciation for bhangra through performances.
also please refrain from trying to pressure/bully individuals to joining your ubj initiative. if people or competitions chose not to participate, they don't deserve to be hassled.
 

hardeep_singh

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,464
Here's why this is critical:

In my opinion, over the past many years, there has been an overall decline in quality of judges, teams, competitions and audience levels. This circuit started in the early 2000s, and since then, there has been zero effort to standardize ANYTHING. The bottom line: this circuit is a dance competition circuit. Why don't we have leagues? Tournaments? Judging uniformity? Team and dancer statistics? It's because there has been a lack of grass roots effort to organize and standardize the way we compete.

UBJ is the first step in my opinion. It is a step that must be taken slowly, with meticulous detail and consistency. Once the initial goals of the UBJ are reached, it is the UBJ members (many SMART veterans in this group) that should continue to push for further organization and synergy.

The stake holders: teams, competitions, judges, audiences, the greater world audience through social media.

The ultimate goal, in my opinion, should be to establish league of sorts (think NCAA). This will ensure that competitive bhangra continues to thrive and improve. Saleem, Swi, Mariam, and Kuntal, thank you.
i agree anyone who judges a competition or mela should have proper knowledge of bhangra/punjabi culture. i think your concept of a league is misguided. the circuit doesn't need more order, it needs more chaos. creativity thrives due to disorder, teams shouldn't have to focus on trying to analyze their competition in an effort to one up whoever they see as a threat, they should be free to work on improving their own selves to build creative/difficult/unique/intriguing sets. fck standardization.
 

sumeetj

Active Member
Messages
631
i agree anyone who judges a competition or mela should have proper knowledge of bhangra/punjabi culture. i think your concept of a league is misguided. the circuit doesn't need more order, it needs more chaos. creativity thrives due to disorder, teams shouldn't have to focus on trying to analyze their competition in an effort to one up whoever they see as a threat, they should be free to work on improving their own selves to build creative/difficult/unique/intriguing sets. fck standardization.
I actually totally agree that when it comes to breaking the norms and spiking someone's creative process, alot of beauty emerges from chaos. Anyone who has read the biographies of eccentric geniuses with weird routines/habits or with crazy background stories/childhoods/etc can agree with that too.

but i also wonder - do you think one would be free to be more creative when they know they'll be scrutinized in a more professional/transparent manner? And I am trying to say this as a matter of pure discussion, just because I am really interested in the creative process of individuals/teams as a whole - so don't think I am saying this as an indirect way to support the UBJ initiative. But for instance, once could see the majority of collegiate teams adapt a style that they saw old VCU and UNC have (in terms of their set) - again, I say the majority, not everyone. There were still collegiate/coed teams out there that did their own thing and continued to do so (empire/drp/cornell/dcmpaa/etc, all who remained quite successful as well) - but anyway, people adapted that style because the judges were mostly similar, liked the same type of thing, and they were playing up to what competitions wanted - because in a competitive arena, regardless of how much you want to sit back and express the art form in what you believe its true nature is, winning is a big deal to you. Whether its for pure selfish validation, justifying to your parents why you spend so much time in bhangra dancing, or whatever - if there are placings, people will adjust to do what it takes to win.

Now, if I was confident that each judge was going to judge in his own way based on their background (ie some appreciate modern elements more, some who have danced live will notice certain intricacies we've placed in our set, etc etc etc), it could also free me up mentally to be more creative with my set because I know that I am going to be judged fairly. I wouldn't be as scared of breaking the norm because I know that in the end, the judging practices are standardized in the sense of transparency and professionalism - not in the "style" of bhangra they find most appealing, which I don't think is the goal of UBJ at all.

This is all speculation. I see merit in people attempting to start community-wide initiatives to further development of the circuit - and it could totally fail, but at least we'd know then that it's not the answer to some of the judging problems teams have faced. In the end, it's an experiment that we will all inevitably learn alot from, and hopefully benefit from.

But to sum up my point of discussion - do you think teams are going to make better sets with chaotic/uncertain competition environments, or with more certain/standardized competition environments? I personally feel like most people would play it safe in the chaos and feel free to mess around a bit in the standardized environment, but again - that's my best guess.
 

amancheema

Active Member
Messages
240
But to sum up my point of discussion - do you think teams are going to make better sets with chaotic/uncertain competition environments, or with more certain/standardized competition environments? I personally feel like most people would play it safe in the chaos and feel free to mess around a bit in the standardized environment, but again - that's my best guess.
I really think less regulation is better for growth and creativity. Which is why I'm so opposed to this shit. It's basic free market theory... you absolutely cannot have an overlord like this in a dance that's designed to be boundless.
 

amancheema

Active Member
Messages
240
i have an aversion towards the excessive douchiness commonly expressed on this forum by amancheema, but on this matter i have to say i agree with his sentiment wholeheartedly.
I don't mean to be a douche or personal, just passionate about getting my point across. This idea is horrific.
 

sumeetj

Active Member
Messages
631
but i dont think they are trying to control the judging itself, ie influencing how placings will be determined - as far as i know, its moreso settings standards for the communication between the judges and the competitions, judges and teams, and overall transparency with feedback. ie just a platform for judges who have specific views to present them in a more professional way - not make bruin and motor city bhangra essentially the same competition
 

Basim

♥ BTF ♥
Staff member
Messages
1,459
but i dont think they are trying to control the judging itself, ie influencing how placings will be determined - as far as i know, its moreso settings standards for the communication between the judges and the competitions, judges and teams, and overall transparency with feedback. ie just a platform for judges who have specific views to present them in a more professional way - not make bruin and motor city bhangra essentially the same competition
I think you hit the nail on the head and that's key with this initiative. I wouldn't want the UBJ committee to dictate how to judge a certain performance or to force a committee to align with a certain "official UBJ rubric," but having all judges, competitions, etc agree to have transparency is key.

Also, just generally having a judging database with all credentials/qualifications of individuals kept updated is an excellent way forward. We haven't had that in the past and for competitions that find it difficult to find judges, it's a huge resource.

~ Basim :)
 
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Lally

Active Member
Messages
332
Competitions are being hosted and judged by people that have never done bhangra in their lives! When that happens, it's a slap in all of our faces. Because we're the ones as dancers who put our sweat, blood and tears into preparation for these competitions. Yet, it's just a money grab for these committees. The Bhangra circuit has been a victim of this scheme for a very long time. So why bash a committee that is about to dedicate themselves to make a difference for our future teams?

Good on UBJ for taking this intiative. Wish you guys the best!
 

arnab

Member
Messages
77
@amancheema / @hardeep_singh - I thought some of the same things when I first learned about UBJ. I've since changed my mind, and support the work that Mariam and Kuntal are doing because:

1) The point of the group is to bring new judges into the fold, help teams get rubrics back faster, mediate conflicts b/w judges/committees/teams, and increase access to information about how to judge efficiently.
2) The group is very diverse, made up of some of the most conservative to most modern dancers I know. I don't think a particular style could dominate even if Mariam/Kuntal had some odd agenda.
3) I am most definitely *not* a member of any Bhangra "cool kids club", and don't feel like anyone is telling me what to do or how I should think about dance.

I support the work of the group insofar as it relates to improving processes and reducing the drama of judging.

As far as the rest, Bhangra is not a sport. Sometimes we treat it like sport, and to Hardeep's point, we lose so much of what makes the dance beautiful by doing that. I firmly believe that the homogeneity in the circuit stems from this hyper-sporty culture we have created around what is supposed to be folk dance.

I do not believe a league, or national championship will make Bhangra more beautiful or fun. I do believe that if a dancer chooses to compete, it is their right to be judged fairly and transparently for their hard work. That is why I've chosen to be a member of the UBJ.
 

ramv88

www.dholiram.com
Messages
198
The guys involved are some of the best so I have no problem with this initiative.

Great job Saleem, Swi, Kuntal, Mariam and the rest of the team!



- Dholi Ram
 

sahab

Well-Known Member
Messages
169
@Union of Bhangra Judges

What is the process to be a UBJ certified judge?

One suggestion for when consulting with competitions is to determine the level of the competition and decide what skill of judging is needed. For example, you have Comp X that is a first year comp that doesn't bring many top tier teams, and you have Comp Y that has been running for 10+ years and brings the best of the best. For Comp X, you can suggest judges from your database that have judged less but are looking to build experience. For Comp Y, you can bring more experienced judges. With this system, it helps individuals grow as judges without risking judging quality at top tier comps. Idk if this is already a best practice, but it is just a suggestion.

Last, I have a caution/warning. This is for dancers, the UBJ, and competitions. Do not assume that UBJ judges do not have inherent biases. Inherent biases examples: "I'm friends with people on that team", "those people kissed my ass at the mixer so I'll be a little more lenient on judging them", "that team has been winning a lot/has beaten me at past comps so ill judge them more harshly", "this team reviewed me poorly as a judge so I'm gonna be harder on them". The one fault in judging that can never be taken out is the human factor. These little quotes I put may seem trivial/stupid, but this is not just coming out of my ass or some crazy idea. I've been told this by multiple individuals who may become or are already UBJ certified that these types of mind games play a factor in judging.

So will 100% accuracy in judging ever exist, no due to the human element. However, UBJ seems on track to try to get as close to 100% as possible. I only saw a small section about judging biases in the hand book, and I hope this topic, whether small in the eyes of the community or not, is addressed in further detail in the future. This was a just small thought that's been bugging me, and I've wanted to get off my back. My statements do not intend to demean or "knock down" any of the work the UBJ has done.

-Sahab

P.S. What is the UBJ's opinion on stage markers? ;)
 
Messages
4
Hi Sahab! Appreciate the post and sharing your well-developed thoughts. This gave us a good chance to jump in and clarify a couple concepts.

We're not actually going to certify judges, but rather call judges who decide to register "Member Judges" or "Registered Judges" (still finalize those details!). The reason I point this out is because we know we cannot confidently predict, let alone attest to, who will be a good judge. We chose to not to even go down that path. What we're doing instead is providing training, resources, and a feedback mechanism for judging and judges to improve themselves. UBJ Major Key: Resources

The process for becoming a "Member Judge" is simply to register with us! It's a simple application that asks about your Bhangra background, experience, and a couple questions we use to build your profile. It also asks if you agree to support the Union of Bhangra Judges mission. Upon receipt of your app, we'll add you to the members' Facebook group.

Regarding skill level of judges for different competitions, it's a good suggestion, but ultimately want to leave judging choices 100% up to competitions. What we'll do is provide a Database of Judges with profiles that indicate how much judging experience they have and what kinds of reviews they've gotten. This way we're helping competitions choose judges with the appropriate skill level, by simply providing data. UBJ Major Key: Data

Regarding your warning about UBJ Judges being like any other judges and potentially having biases - CORRECT! A UBJ Judge is simply a judge who has registered with UBJ and supports its mission. All judges are human and may have explicit, implicit, inherent, apparent, inside out, upside down, any type of bias. What the UBJ will do is provide training that discusses these issues so judges can be aware of unintentional biases (and if they have intentional biases maybe they'll reconsider judging). As suggested in the Handbook, competition organizers should do their due diligence and interview judging candidates. Teams should continue to ask tough questions when needed during feedback sessions.

Regarding your suggestion to mention biases in the Handbook, it's a good suggestion and I'll put it for consideration on the next edition. (PS - Wanna be on the Handbook 2.0 team?)

Mariam

updates as of 1/18
- 30 judges have registered; raw database is available by request while website is under construction
- 5 upcoming competitions are certified, 1 is pending paperwork
- volunteer call for members who want to join project teams is feb. 1st
- 3rd judges' call will be scheduled for february, this will be an open informational call, please shoot us an email if you'd like to attend
-2nd competitions' call, also an open informational call, will be in february, please shoot us an email if you'd like to attend
 

hardeep_singh

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,464
@amancheema / @hardeep_singh - I thought some of the same things when I first learned about UBJ. I've since changed my mind, and support the work that Mariam and Kuntal are doing because:

1) The point of the group is to bring new judges into the fold, help teams get rubrics back faster, mediate conflicts b/w judges/committees/teams, and increase access to information about how to judge efficiently.
2) The group is very diverse, made up of some of the most conservative to most modern dancers I know. I don't think a particular style could dominate even if Mariam/Kuntal had some odd agenda.
3) I am most definitely *not* a member of any Bhangra "cool kids club", and don't feel like anyone is telling me what to do or how I should think about dance.

I support the work of the group insofar as it relates to improving processes and reducing the drama of judging.

As far as the rest, Bhangra is not a sport. Sometimes we treat it like sport, and to Hardeep's point, we lose so much of what makes the dance beautiful by doing that. I firmly believe that the homogeneity in the circuit stems from this hyper-sporty culture we have created around what is supposed to be folk dance.

I do not believe a league, or national championship will make Bhangra more beautiful or fun. I do believe that if a dancer chooses to compete, it is their right to be judged fairly and transparently for their hard work. That is why I've chosen to be a member of the UBJ.
i appreciate the thought out response and definitely understand your perspective on the matter. a serious point of contention i have is that this initiative seems too controlled. i've always had an open source mentality when it comes to anything related to bhangra, i've seen how people can sometimes take aspects of a culture hostage for their own gains. i think any sort of project to bring about reform to a community should be open source from the beginning so that it can be molded by the community it will affect. i can understand the desire to maintain control of an initiative but you risk hindering development if you try to keep it on the path you personally think is right. the only reason plastic saaps are everywhere these days is because i shared my knowledge of how to make them openly if i had tried to maintain control/monopoly it would have limited adoption and probably backfired on me. the ideas which make up the ubj initiative are nothing new a lot of them have been openly discussed on this forum for years by people who were not involved in this project so i also feel that all the credit being given to the ubj team is misguided.
 
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mafzal

Judge / Dancer
Messages
2,098
Hi Hardeep,

Valid comment -- I think I get where you're going with this, your point being it shouldn't be 2 people doing only what they think should be done, right? I assure this is not the case and neither myself or Kuntal will let it become that. We actually want to automate things and make the UBJ platforms run themselves as much as possible. Setting up some systems, structure, and providing data and resources is the goal. (I also want to assure you that we are in no way interfering with the culture or even getting close to changing anything in Bhangra itself! Our ideas could be translated onto any competitive dance circuit. None of it is really Bhangra-specific if you think about it... this was on purpose)

If we let this be totally "open source", it would just sit on BTF as another thread that goes nowhere. It took myself and Kuntal to actually DO it and make it HAPPEN. But we definitely haven't done it alone. We started from where Swi left off with the original BhangraJudging.com (shoutouts to whoever remembers this!), brainstormed, did beta testing, learned from that testing, consulting organizers, team captains, and held 2 calls with 40 judges including major proponents of new judging ideas like Faizan, to explain our ideas and get feedback and improve on these ideas. That's a lot of reaching out and involving the people it will affect -- we just did it directly & personally instead of on BTF.

To your comment on not involving people who had these ideas on BTF, that's completely false. Read the Handbook, look at the Credits page, and go back on BTF and read judging threads. I personally contacted every person who helped on the Handbook because I either heard their ideas in person or saw them posted on BTF.

Now that we have a solid member base, we're having a meeting on Feb. 1st to create the real UBJ Team by forming project teams with our volunteer members. I can't wait!! With a real team we'll be able to get things moving faster and better :)

To sum it up, since launching we have been 100% open and inclusive and will continue to do so. I appreciate your post and think it's definitely something we need to keep top of mind. We're scheduling a 3rd Judges' Call (anyone can attend) and 2nd Organizers' Call for February. There will be open so if anyone wants to join, shoot UBJ an email! We'll announce the dates, here, too ;)

Mariam
 
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Messages
4
Hi BTF! :) Please see below for an update on all that we've been working on. An updated version of our handout, which includes details of this initiative, is attached to this reply.

*Competitions- We have a working version of our judges database ready! Let us know if you would like to access it while we continue to develop our website. Please reach out to us if you would like to join our next call to discuss UBJ Competition Certification.

**Interested Judges- Please reach out to us to get an invite to our next call! We will have an overview of what being a UBJ Registered Judge entails and a Q&A session for any of your questions/concerns.
UBJ 3wk Update.png
 

Attachments

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mithu

Active Member
Messages
793
TL;DR: a great idea for the community but it's not practical as it is now

What exactly does making a compt certified do? If there is controversy over placing is UBJ going step in?
How will UBJ sustain itself? Are compt paying to be certified? If they are, where is the money going?

Without going into tons of details. UBJ should be something of "fail safe" for teams when they apply compts, example:
  • UBJ has to detach itself form everything BTF, and board members can have no direct connections to teams, captains, etc etc
  • Compt's pay a membership which will cover costs (This will make them a certified)
  • Judges who apply to be part of UBJ can not judge compt outside of UBJ Certified Compts (this will basically force
  • UBJ steps in when there is a controversy over placing (have 2nd set of judges watch video and rescore sets and then compare the two sets of judges)
  • All UBJ judges MUST POST ALL NOTES AND SCORING SHEETS on a public forum (be it on UBJ or BTF)
  • Judges are held responsible for placings (If UBJ steps in due to controversy, they must pay UBJ back for costs)
  • UBJ has to be transparent aka all the money that goes in and out must be public. (But lets face it, transparency never has or will exist in the circuit)
For UBJ to be practical, it needs to personally say they are taking responsibility of said judges, and the judging itself. But we all know that this will never happen.
 
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