'Luddi' exhibition by Vasda Punjab at Capital Bhangra 2014

[Basim]

So when I last visited Punjab many years back (the West side of Punjab, since my family is mainly settled in the Pakistan side).. I noticed the "bhangra" dancers for entertainment purposes (weddings, during concerts/mehfils, etc) are similar to what Gibb posted in the youtube video above.

The dance was a bit less informal in terms of attire and was made for like "anyone" to join in the fun. The luddi presentations were quite different than what we see on stage these days. Also, unlike the "chakwal luddi" video above, there were a TON of more dancers.. I would say maybe like 20+ and they are not "professional dancers" but basically village folks (mainly young to middle aged men.. only saw a few older dancers). Their moves were synchronized to the live band music VERY well. Also, from what I noticed, there was one or two people who would take the "lead" on creating variation and then everyone else would follow suit. They also varied the dancing based on the rhythm/beats.. so you might see luddi presented for a few minutes, then they might change things up to dhammal, then maybe do a variation of mirza, etc.

Edit: By attire not being formal, I meant for the dancers.. they basically work kameez & shalwar (although not all of the same color). Also, the only formality that came was in terms of the live band.. they had paggs on with side turlas and more of the "bhangra outfit" that we are used to seeing on stage today.

Here is an interesting article and picture presentation of luddi displayed in Pakistan: http://www.newzulu.com/en/photos/life/2013-11-24/4593/pakistan-dancers-perform-at-luddi-dance.html

I was surprised to read that the performance was for a "dance competition." I never realized the dance was that organized on the Pakistan side.

~ Basim

 

[hardeep_singh]

we can all agree that modern bhangra is an amalgamation of dance forms and moves loosely derived and distilled from traditional folk dances.

I do not agree with that. You're giving modern bhangra too much credit, and you're making it sound like all the stuff in the "Visual History" thread never happened. Perhaps in the mid 1950s you could imagine stage bhangra this way. But nowadays 'bhangra' looks absolutely nothing like traditional bhangra. Not only the actions, but the way people move is not even like the way Punjabis moved a couple decades ago. ...though it's the way they move now, so fine! ;D

the modern form of luddi seems to have little in common with traditional luddi but the motions are derived from the traditional style.

No. That's why I posted. There is hardly anything that looks like luddi motions in the composition. You know I am saying this with no disrespect, because I suspect my guru, Garib Dass, had a hand in shaping the 'original' luddi composition (though it has surely been adapted since then). It is just a stage piece with a vague inspiration of the idea of luddi. This includes using a luddi dhol rhythm every once in a while (!), the mis-named "luddi" action that is found in stage bhangra, saying "luddi" every once in a while in the song lyrics, and a style of costume that is distinct from bhangra's. Surface stuff, sprinkled. Now, do at that and move your body in the way that competition bhangra dances have been doing in recent years, and you get something that is like luddi like skim milk is to whiskey.

the second video you posted which showcases the more "punjab" style shows a more loose/freeform version of the modern luddi but the dhol beat and the moves themselves are of the same composition as in the OP video.

Yes, the point of posting was that it is the same composition - to compare apples to apples. It was to illustrate that the people in that video are dancing the composition in a style (the way they move, not what actions they do) in a "Punjab" way, whereas the one's in the OP are doing it in a "diaspora bhangra" way.

in most if not all american/canadian music sets luddi style moves are pretty much used just as filler these days,

What luddi style moves? Watch the video above and tell me if there is anything in modern "do you even lift, bro?" bhangra that looks anything like it. We might as well be watching folk dance of Lebanon or Greece or Uzbekistan. But no, it's actually Punjabi.

its also uncommon these days to see a complex luddi segment in live indian performances

It's not done. Are you crazy? Nobody has a clue what luddi is in India. Garib Dass' generation was the last to have a clue, but they were even filling in huge gaps in memory. I have already explained (above) why I think that these artists would have gone along with the pretense in the past. To go along with the pretense now, using postmodernistic ways of stretching concepts like "derived from traditional" - especially when evidence to the contrary is just a click away - is madness.

bro everything changes/evolves with time, the traditional forms you're talking about are relics of a bygone era. fine i accept that modern bhangra looks nothing like traditional bhangra, but the truth is there is no place for traditional bhangra anymore. is it wrong to present modern luddi as something related to "original" luddi? sure, but even you stated there are different forms of luddi so there could have been some influence on the modern luddi, as i doubt that someone just pulled it out of vacuum, everything is derived or influenced by something else. the fact is what we call luddi, what you consider "modern-in-no-way-related-at-all-to-the-traditional-form-trust-me-i'm-serious-i'll-beat-you-with-a-daang-jatt-style" luddi, is the luddi we know and love. it's the luddi we've been exposed to and it's the luddi that makes us happy when we dance it, i have no connection or point of reference for traditional luddi, so maybe what should be done to avoid further confusion is to rename all the modern dances. bhangra and all the related modern dance forms are going to keep changing and evolving which in my opinion is a good thing because it shows that the community has a passion to drive the development and growth of it.

 

[Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan]

bro everything changes/evolves with time,

zzzz.... There you go with the postmodernism again. Hey, are you the same person I conversed with last time? You changed. Wait, I changed, too. Hold up: who am I? Who are we all? Everything is like, so fluid, man. We shouldn't put boundaries around anything. Monkeys may have evolved into dogs. WHO KNOWS? Were you there? No. In fact, I don't even distinguish monkeys from dogs. They're both mammals, and science isn't 100% :-\


When do I ever try to say that contemporary forms shouldn't be? I just tell what is what.


"The luddi we all know and love"? Who knows this luddi? People don't really know it outside India - which is the OP's point of exhibiting it. In India, as I explained, people started to know it well in 2007 as part of the youth festivals. Is that the luddi they all know and love? I think they know it as a choreographed dance item that they might learn in college - it's not something that has big sentimental value. Want to know what it's derived from?: stagi bhangra - with token luddi associations put on top. It's like when someone serves you a "Hawaiian burger." It's just a hamburger that someone has stuck a pineapple on. Here's the thing: Nobody is upset that it's called a Hawaiian burger even though it doesn't derive from traditional Hawaiian food. Likewise, there is no problem with the innovators like Garib Dass and his son Des Raj (who was among the first to do it in 2007) calling the piece luddi. But if someone over in China sees that Hawaiian burger from USA and thinks it is "Hawaiian food," we would be right to burst the Chinese bubble and explain how "Hawaiian" is being imagined in this instance.


Which luddi do you know and love? I apologize; I still don't know what luddi steps you're talking about. Do you mean something that is done nowadays in stagi bhangra? Please tell me what is it that you see in the OP video that you identify as luddi? If I knew the specifics, we could sort it out. The name is the problem, hence this mental confusion about change and evolution. I'm sure if we called monkeys monkeys and dogs also monkeys, then there would be some people out there "suspecting" one was evolved from the other.


You sound butthurt that the luddi composition is not an old/traditional luddi. Or that stagi bhangra is not like old bhangra. I'm the one that introduced the idea of modern bhangra's development to N.A. bhangra circuit community (back in Punjab Online days - and in reference to 1950s bhangra, not today's), but people have shaped it to the way they want to think: that modern bhangra is this mixture of traditional dances (and that the modern part is just that they are combined, and that it's on stage) - so there's all this traditional stuff they are still doing. Yeah, not really. It's like Christian Science.


I am just telling you what this is and what I know luddi is, their background. That is opposed to people saying this is traditional luddi or tradition-based luddi. And you're not knowing the background to either, but trying to put some doubt by saying "There could be something else out there." If you don't have any evidence to say it's out there, don't say it. Start the thread on luddi that I suggested, and you can start to explore all the evidence from which my views are coming. Who knows? Maybe you'll find the missing link between monkeys and dogs. But since you couldn't find a single Pakistani luddi video, I doubt it!

 

[Gabbah Shareef Bhalwan]

I was surprised to read that the performance was for a "dance competition." I never realized the dance was that organized on the Pakistan side.

There have been dance competitions in Punjab since before Partition. I have written about Baba Pokhar Singh, late jhummar master, who claimed to have gained his knowledge of regional variations of jhummar from attending competitions and observing the delegates, before Partition. And Jim Dhanoa has gathered oral testimony of bhangra competitions before Partition.


Along with this there is the very striking statement by one of the British colonial authors (I forget who, probably Ibbetson or Rose) who very wryly comments that (to paraphrase) the Punjabis of the plains didn't do their dancing themselves, but rather had others (professionals) do their dancing for them! In other words, people watched dance presentations, rather than participating. He might have been comparing it to experience with English country dance, which everyone gets up and does, and thought that it was unusual that at least in some cases "folk" dancing was being done as display. Additionally, professional performers (Bazigars come to mind) used to do dances for entertaining others - which is what made it a natural when the first bhangra team was formed and have the troupe was Bazigars. They knew how to shape a choreography that was meant to be watched.


So, "traditional" Punjabi dance is not marked by being unscripted or uncoordinated/sloppy or free-form, or even by everyone joining in. "Staged" presentations of traditional dance existed. What really distinguishes the old Punjabi dances from what people are doing nowadays under the same names is simply that they are different dances. And the big difference between the stage dances in Pakistan done over the years and those in India is that the Pakistanis actually had access to the traditional forms on which to model them.