Ok this is seriously getting outta hand...

[Summy]

Wow, I never knew that was the story behind 12 gaj gaye. I thought it was because there was a story that a sardar was carrying milk in his right hand, the same hand as a glass of milk, and when somebody asked him the time, he looked at his watch, spilling the milk. And thats why when somebody says bara baj gaye, its an insult towards sikhs. The story stated by Ashveer seems to make more sense.

Harvey, HarmanSingh pretty much explained it pretty well, but what your confusing sikhi with, is a western religion. In western ideology, what has been thought since the beginning of time, is that you are born into a religion. In sikhi philosophy, nobody is born a sikh. You can be born into a sikh family, but that does not make you a sikh. Amrit is necessary to be taken, to become a sikh, because it entails many things. First off, Amrit existed right when Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj Ji was in this physical realm; only khande di pahul was initiated by Guru Gobind Singh Ji. So those who believe that Amrit was only initiated by Guru Gobind Singh Ji, techincally the ceremony we do now, but it existed from day one.

Amrit signifies a promise. Because you havent read bani, you wouldnt know this. First off, not an insult, but what separates you, from a hindu or a muslim, that both respect and lives morals by Guru ji's words as you say you do? I know many non-sikhs that read the Guru Granth Sahib JI, and adheres to its values. Does that constitute them as a sikh as well? Amrit has nothing to do with apperance. Our apperance is just a manisfestation of our promise. Our promise is to live purely, with respect, and for Waheguru.

The LITERAL promise you take, when you take Amrit, is to live purely. For those who smoke, drink, eat meat, etc... They are breaking the promise of Amrit (like Harman explained) therefore are not Amritdhari's. Sure they may look the part, but the look means nothing. It is what the look represents.


Bhai Gurdas Ji says, Only a true sikh is one who takes initiation. This is in our Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj Ji. It is not an option. You can be on the path of salvation, but calling yourself a sikh, is adhering to western identification, and COMPLETELY ignoring the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Your not a sikh until you are initiated/ baptised.

You can say, you follow the values, and the morals, and be obsecure like that, but it holds no weight. If you really respected Guru Ji's words, you wouldnt be selective of his words. Therefore, when Guru Gobind Singh Ji says that Amrit is essential, you should take amrit. When he compares cutting your hair to incest, you dont take it lightly.


For many western individuals, it is a hard pill to swallow. So called sikhs in the west, dont like to be called non-sikh, because they do have respect for Guru ji, and sikhi. I appreciate that, but so do many hindus, muslims, buddhists, jains, christians, jews etc in this world. The fact is that, many younger sikhs dont want to give up the luxury of cutting your hair, sleeping in, not walking up before sun rise to naam jaap, etc... but the fact of the matter is that, this is your dharam. This is what your religion states, in you identify with it.

Therefore, if I see a person born into a sikh family, but not adhereing to amrit, then I see no difference between him and the hindu/muslim/jew/jain etc.. walking down the street who may have a better relationship and feeling for Waheguru than you.

Sometimes its hard to hear, but Guru Ji explains it all, its a fact of our religion, and the sacrifice (even though I dont see it as one) was never an option. To be known a sikh, I must become one first.



I like Ranjit Singh's post, it was awesome. Yeah Akhsay Kumar is a good guy, it seems like his people, the director, and him went out of their way to display what is right for the sikh community. I rather this come out than another Jazzy B album talking about Jatt this and Jatt that.


Take Care,
Summinder Singh

 

[Sher]

eating meat is very controversial. I do not believe it is against Sikhi at all, and I have my reasons for thinking this way. I also know several Amrithdaris that do eat meat, and the panj pyare that they took amrit with said it was ok to eat meat. In fact, some gurdwaras in India serve meat.

 

[Summy]

Not going to get into the meat eating issue, but its against sikhi. I know more amritdharis that dont eat meat, than you do that do eat meat.

If any Gurdwara in India serves meat, they would be bombed, thats a lie. The Guru Granth sahib ji specifically states no meat in the Gurdwara because langar should be served to all, including vegetarians. There is no way a Gurdwara serves meat. The only Gurdwara you should be looking at is Harimandir Sahib Ji, and try to bring a peice of meat in there, and your done.

If you are supposed to be living pure, consuming an atma, and killing it specifcally for eating is not pure. Its a conterversial issue, because sikhi has been construed. Its not a conterversial issue, if you understand bani and the TOTAL meaning of jatkha and its insinutations.

None of our Guru's eat meat, and who told you the panj pyare said eating meat is okay? Guru Gobind Singh Ji specfically stated against eating meat, so why would the panj pyare emerge out of the tent, speaking in direct defiance to Guru Gobind Singh ji?

Its mis-construed sikhi, but if sikhi tells you to respect the atma, pay no attention to the body, and live purely, and you STILL think, killing an innocent atma, and consuming it for material gains, then its your choice. Just dont says sikhi allows it, or promotes it, its VERY disrespectful.

 

[Mukandpuria]

Summys on a role here... lol

In fact, some gurdwaras in India serve meat.

no to be an ass but Sher can you possible back that up. I would like to know what Gurdwara serves meat in India....I find this shocking

 

[Chidiya]

Thanks Ashveer, that really helps.

I may get attacked for this..but if that is the case, I don't understand how the "Barh Baj Gaye" could or should be a joke. Is saving the honor of women not something that 1 should be proud of? Especially since it includes an entire religion?

My family is very much into going to all the Mandirs and Gurudawaras when we go to India so I talked to my mom regarding eating meat in a Gurudawara and she asked me if I was crazy.

Could you provide some proof please?

 

[Ashveer]

Chidiya, I dont know how the time became a mainstay in the Punjabi/Sardar jokes. But again, realize that there even exists such a category as the 'Sardar joke' in the Indian ethos. Digest that, and its easy to see how Sikhs get wary of films like 'Singh is King.' Yeah, I'll take the easy way out and criticize, but there's something insanely marketable about Kumar's media and PR about this. Keep in mind that Punjabis are the largest subgroup that comprises the 'Indian diaspora'. Its also easy to see how living in India desensitizes one to prejudice, Summy for example thought that a Sardar joke was the reason that 'bara bajj gaye' came about.

Wow, I never knew that was the story behind 12 gaj gaye. I thought it was because there was a story that a sardar was carrying milk in his right hand, the same hand as a glass of milk, and when somebody asked him the time, he looked at his watch, spilling the milk. And thats why when somebody says bara baj gaye, its an insult towards sikhs. The story stated by Ashveer seems to make more sense.

 

[Summy]

I dont understand you implication that living in India desensitizes one to prejudice? The reason why those who I grew up with, and others, that barah baj gaye was offensive, because it was an insinuation that we are stupid. Perhaps google and I disagree, but like you said, you may not know how Barah Baj gaye become a mainstay in sardar jokes.

Well, it is because, inaddition to that "joke"/insult, that I stated, the time of 12 has a significance. If we just take your understanding/ google's, what is offensive about Barah baj gaye? Nothing in my eyes. We are defenders of humanity. I'm proud that my sikh ancestors saved hindu women. The offensive part specfically comes from that "joke"/insult. Furthermore, that specific joke spread from the roots which seem to be that sikh people loose their senses at 12.

So, I am not sure your connection of people living in India, and being densensitived to prejudice behaviour. It almost as to say, those who are secondary witnesses to prejudice seem to know better when it occurs and when it doesnt. That pretty much goes against all logic. That joke that I quoted, is the reason why many Sardars feel offended by barah baj gaye. Never have I heard someone proud to hear that. So, there is a disconnect between your reason why barah baj gaye exists, and why it is offensive. Perhaps google cannot provide all the answers, but you didnt seem to give a real answer, merely obsecure assertions.


Living in India, opens your eyes more to prejudice and classism. As a resident in India for the majority of my life, people are much more aware of what is offensive and what is not. Many westernized youth dont understand Indian insinuations, fully understand the language, and culture behind certain sayings.

FOR EXAMPLE,

Ashveer, believes that the Barah Baj gaye dates back to the history of sikhs saving hindu women. Well, in the west, and google, that may run, may doesnt explain why people are offended by it in India. Growing up in India, we understand that barah bay gaye has a different, OFFENSIVE insinuation.

You throw a westerner, like ashveer, into the heart of punjab, and if he/she hears barah baj gaye, rather than getting upset, he/she would be smiling or being proud.



For us living in India, we are not DE-sensitized, we understand more, where prejudice comes from, and who to expect prejudice from.

 

[Ashveer]

Summy, I'm not really interested in carrying this on much further, you never budge and are relatively stubborn with your arguments in a way that is unconvincing.

I of course know the significance of bara bajj gaye, the ways in which it is important to history and the ways in which it has become a vehicle for the ridicule of Sikhs. 2 movies, one American and one Indian have addressed this and offered the same explanation that I put fourth. My comments about not recognizing prejudice is that you yourself thought that the significance of bara bajj gaye came from a made up joke.

Also, I don't know if:

Living in India, opens your eyes more to prejudice and classism. As a resident in India for the majority of my life, people are much more aware of what is offensive and what is not. Many westernized youth dont understand Indian insinuations, fully understand the language, and culture behind certain sayings.

For us living in India, we are not DE-sensitized, we understand more, where prejudice comes from, and who to expect prejudice from.

Is necessarily true. You sometimes defend the Indian government more than I would expect a well-read person to do, but I don't know how many people in India expect prejudice from their government (which is blatantly there). I don't know how many people are aware of classism, especially when its more rooted in caste. If such a critical consciousness was there, I feel that there might be more activism. I am not saying that its necessarily a western perspective that gives clarity, but taking a step back and increasing your scope is much more useful.

 

[HarmanSingh]

I dont understand you implication that living in India desensitizes one to prejudice? The reason why those who I grew up with, and others, that barah baj gaye was offensive, because it was an insinuation that we are stupid. Perhaps google and I disagree, but like you said, you may not know how Barah Baj gaye become a mainstay in sardar jokes.

Well, it is because, inaddition to that "joke"/insult, that I stated, the time of 12 has a significance. If we just take your understanding/ google's, what is offensive about Barah baj gaye? Nothing in my eyes. We are defenders of humanity. I'm proud that my sikh ancestors saved hindu women. The offensive part specfically comes from that "joke"/insult. Furthermore, that specific joke spread from the roots which seem to be that sikh people loose their senses at 12.

So, I am not sure your connection of people living in India, and being densensitived to prejudice behaviour. It almost as to say, those who are secondary witnesses to prejudice seem to know better when it occurs and when it doesnt. That pretty much goes against all logic. That joke that I quoted, is the reason why many Sardars feel offended by barah baj gaye. Never have I heard someone proud to hear that. So, there is a disconnect between your reason why barah baj gaye exists, and why it is offensive. Perhaps google cannot provide all the answers, but you didnt seem to give a real answer, merely obsecure assertions.


Living in India, opens your eyes more to prejudice and classism. As a resident in India for the majority of my life, people are much more aware of what is offensive and what is not. Many westernized youth dont understand Indian insinuations, fully understand the language, and culture behind certain sayings.

FOR EXAMPLE,

Ashveer, believes that the Barah Baj gaye dates back to the history of sikhs saving hindu women. Well, in the west, and google, that may run, may doesnt explain why people are offended by it in India. Growing up in India, we understand that barah bay gaye has a different, OFFENSIVE insinuation.

You throw a westerner, like ashveer, into the heart of punjab, and if he/she hears barah baj gaye, rather than getting upset, he/she would be smiling or being proud.



For us living in India, we are not DE-sensitized, we understand more, where prejudice comes from, and who to expect prejudice from.

Summy, I think you are misinterpreting what Ashveer was saying. I think he realizes the joke is offensive, the explanation he put forth was the origin of the joke, and he was saying it morphed over time into something offensive...which happens a lot of times.

Look at the Polish...the reason people make fun of them for being dumb is because a long time ago their poor farmers ran into battle against an army with technological advances, while they were out there with pitchforks. Now, one could look at that story and say they are dumb for running to their deaths, while if you really look at it shows their bravery in defending their territory. Similarly, the story is one of bravery and courage, and over time it became that Sardars have a barbaric streak and lack the mental capacity to be on par with high brow society.

"Living in India, opens your eyes more to prejudice and classism." IF that is the case, I am more disappointed with India now than before. If the people realize the issues of prejudice and classism, why is little to nothing being done to pull the majority of the population which is in poverty out of their condition? It seems to me India cares little about the plight of the homeless and starved, as their focus is on commercial development...not the aid of the poor. It is crazy that in the midst of an ever growing economy and increasing availability of technology, you see millions on the streets starving due to their caste and family history. Why is that?

And I don't want to put words in Ashveer's mouth, but the way I interpreted what he was saying is that you took the joke to be automatically connected to a negative sardar joke. However, he took it to be connected to something positive which people morphed into negative over time. Meaning you have been subconsciously trained over time to think of the prejudice immediately. I could be wrong though.

 

[Somi]

I am going to take this opportunity to lighten the mood and also introduce one of my favorite web-comics (only go here if you're a geek, sorry):

http://xkcd.com/385/

it reinforces what Harman says, that for a minority, one person's actions are often generalized to the entire population. we've often discussed this at the masjid for how we should make an effort to be good to others, since it is often generalized in other people's minds on how all Muslims are.

hahah geeks only...nice
but I agree with the one persons action.
sad to say its always going to be like that...

for Muslims, MSA & CAIR in sacramento has done a really good job stepping up after 9/11,
telling the community about Islam and mashallah we have gotten a really good response too

Education is the key...starting with your own kind then expanding to the others

 

[Summy]

I dont want to talk to you either since your coming into this conversation with pre-concieved notions of what my response should be. Defending the Indian government? hahaha. (edited) I never defended those people in my life. In fact, I have been more opposed to the Indian government than anyone of POL, or BTF. So, your druming up stories in your head.

The fact of the matter is that your google search has left the answer to why the statement is offensive incomplete. The fact that you keep on refering to my redention as a joke, shows perhaps your western viewpoint on indian matters is a little skewed, in my humble opinion. I knew the story in which you stated. I said I never knew thats the history of barah baj gaye, because that comment is usually offensive, when up until now, including your explanation and all your statements, has yet to show anybody why it is offensive to say barah baj gaye. Im not sure what your getting at? People in India understand that barah baj gaye is offensive, and recognize it as prejudice. How did I NOT recognize it as prejudice. If you ask someone in India regarding that meaning, most people will tell you what I said, but that doesnt mean it is acceptable, everyone knows its prejudice undertone.

Believe me brother, there is no lack of activism in India. Just because it doesnt dominate your television screen doesnt mean its not happening. Activism in India to 100 times better and more prevelent than in the West. Also, the Indian government is no longer a scape goat. The western youth who promote independent nations, and other absurd notions, typically use the government as a scape goat. When born and raised Indians have managed to attack our problems at the source. But I understand and respect your opinion. But respectfully, I ask you, if you havent lived there, please dont judge our people on behalf of your "assumptions". The fact is that your American or Canadian, and claiming that living in India makes you LESS aware to prejudice, I take that as an foreginer making assumptions about a different type of person.

----------

As far as Indians and classism. Please dont think that Indians are unaware of the poverty situation or dont care. Its an issue, when your young, you learn about in school. I dont know how many people here were educated in Punjab, but even up to plus 2, they teach about poverty in South Asia.

Poverty in India is a HUGE issue, one that cannot be tackled right now. And to put onus on the Indian people, and claim some sort of lack of rightousness of their behalf, is quite insulting.


Many people in India arent in the position to help. I can defintely turn it around to the western world and claim that since according to Ashveer the prospectives of classism, prejudice and other notions are so clear to westerners, why the lack of activism here?

Some inherently wrong in the western person? The fact that you guys may be claiming to me that a westerner may be more knowledgeable on the poverty and classism in India may be superfically correct. There may be one person. But as a whole, In India, Indians are much more aware of the classism that exists and the problems that lay there.

---

Again, there is a negative undertone to barah baj gaye. You claim how something good was turned into bad. How? Chidiya asked why it would offensive. No answer is given. Im giving you an answer. This is what people assoicate with barah baj gaye and why it is offensive.

Somehow according to Ashveer, because I was born and raised in Punjab, and because I believe that was the origin about the negativity of that statement, that im more blind to prejudice than the everyday westerner.


Theres defintely a disconnect in logic there.


*This response has been edited. Please refrain from drug references that are used in context of insulting people.

 

[HarmanSingh]

I dont want to talk to you either since your coming into this conversation with pre-concieved notions of what my response should be. Defending the Indian government? hahaha. You must be on crack coccaine, and little herowaaane. I never defended those people in my life. In fact, I have been more opposed to the Indian government than anyone of POL, or BTF. So, your druming up stories in your head.

The fact of the matter is that your google search has left the answer to why the statement is offensive incomplete. The fact that you keep on refering to my redention as a joke, shows perhaps your western viewpoint on indian matters is a little skewed, in my humble opinion. I knew the story in which you stated. I said I never knew thats the history of barah baj gaye, because that comment is usually offensive, when up until now, including your explanation and all your statements, has yet to show anybody why it is offensive to say barah baj gaye. Im not sure what your getting at? People in India understand that barah baj gaye is offensive, and recognize it as prejudice. How did I NOT recognize it as prejudice. If you ask someone in India regarding that meaning, most people will tell you what I said, but that doesnt mean it is acceptable, everyone knows its prejudice undertone.

Believe me brother, there is no lack of activism in India. Just because it doesnt dominate your television screen doesnt mean its not happening. Activism in India to 100 times better and more prevelent than in the West. Also, the Indian government is no longer a scape goat. The western youth who promote independent nations, and other absurd notions, typically use the government as a scape goat. When born and raised Indians have managed to attack our problems at the source. But I understand and respect your opinion. But respectfully, I ask you, if you havent lived there, please dont judge our people on behalf of your "assumptions". The fact is that your American or Canadian, and claiming that living in India makes you LESS aware to prejudice, I take that as an foreginer making assumptions about a different type of person.

----------

As far as Indians and classism. Please dont think that Indians are unaware of the poverty situation or dont care. Its an issue, when your young, you learn about in school. I dont know how many people here were educated in Punjab, but even up to plus 2, they teach about poverty in South Asia.

Poverty in India is a HUGE issue, one that cannot be tackled right now. And to put onus on the Indian people, and claim some sort of lack of rightousness of their behalf, is quite insulting.


Many people in India arent in the position to help. I can defintely turn it around to the western world and claim that since according to Ashveer the prospectives of classism, prejudice and other notions are so clear to westerners, why the lack of activism here?

Some inherently wrong in the western person? The fact that you guys may be claiming to me that a westerner may be more knowledgeable on the poverty and classism in India may be superfically correct. There may be one person. But as a whole, In India, Indians are much more aware of the classism that exists and the problems that lay there.

---

Again, there is a negative undertone to barah baj gaye. You claim how something good was turned into bad. How? Chidiya asked why it would offensive. No answer is given. Im giving you an answer. This is what people assoicate with barah baj gaye and why it is offensive.

Somehow according to Ashveer, because I was born and raised in Punjab, and because I believe that was the origin about the negativity of that statement, that im more blind to prejudice than the everyday westerner.


Theres defintely a disconnect in logic there.

Bro, to take all blame off of India for its poverty and classism is not fair. Yes, most people are not in a position to help. But do you honestly believe those in power have done everything they can to change the situation? And the issue of prejudice in regards to caste is mostly in the hands of the people. The western world can do little to change the belief system in India.

Sure, the west can help in monetary terms and the Indians in the west need to take a more active role in helping the people of India...but the Indian government has mismanaged funds from other countries and has shown its corrupt nature in distributing those funds. India has some very wealthy and powerful people, and a growing economy for those who have the family lineage in order to be successful...but for the majority of people they can't go anywhere in life. And it is the mindset that they dont DESERVE to grow intellectually or financially that truly hurts India. The blame goes both ways, India and the West.

As far as the joke, I can't give you a definitive answer as to why it would morph into something negative. The only thing I can see is that people think Sardars have a barbaric streak in them and they are capable of snapping at any moment. Again, its not definitive, just as your explanation as to how it came about is not definitive. We are all speculating here.

 

[Summy]

I can see why my post was edited, didnt mean to make it sound like an insult. Just a saying where I come from. ha.

As far as India, I am not really sure, what you guys expect the people to do. First off, we are talking about a place of 1.2 billion people. Poverty is going to exist. Mass poverty is going to exist. If China werent such a close country, you would see India's poverty fails in comparison to China's. When you have population crisis, your going to have poverty, its a simple fact. You look at Africa, a continent with a combined population of about 922 million, that is significantly less than India, but the population crisis in Africa, is much worst off.

Do we ever point a finger to the people of africa. First off, as someone who is well educated in the problems of Africa, and having travelled there a few times, I hate the compression of Africa that many people are guilty of. This may be off on a tangent, but bare with me. Many people refer to Africa as a single enitity. Its made up of 61 territories, and therefore, each country has their own problems, and the grouping of African territories is what leads to many problems that the continent faces. People kind of look it like, "ohh well, africa is a mess. Africa has an aids problem, africa is poor etc"... Its a disservice to a lot of people. Lets use the continent for the sake of the argument.

THe African allied governments have also done little to help. Government are allowing Arab states, and the US to come in and take away natural resources from the people etc... We never point the finger at the African people (if you assume there is a classification like that).


Do I think the Indian government has being doing all that it can do? Not by a long shot. A horribly corrupt government. GOvernments that also exist in Pakistan as we see recently, Banglesdesh, Sri Lanka for almost decades, China, etc... These people are bad people, but the question I pose is why are people blaming the Indian people for the crisis.


For people that think that India is just getting worst and worst, they are mistaken. The problems are out there, and very real, but there is some progress, the progress comes from within.

For example:

27.3% of people in India live below the poverty line. In a country that consists of 1.2 billion, thats a lot of people. However, the median african population below the poverty line is well over 60%.

India's 27.3% is down from a 52% in 1951, and about a decade ago it was around 37%. So, where is this positivity coming from? From withing the country. The median poverty line was lowered because of economic gains seen by India. Specifically, Manmohan Singh, who I respect dearly, almost by himself orchastrated this, and unforunately, he is "part of the government". Other methods for the alleviation of poverty come from within India. Microcredit is a leading cause, this is done within India. Similar to what MOhammed Yonus does with the Grameen bank in India. This has been adopted by state banks, and currently, amongst the farming crisis in Punjab, should be implemented by the Punjab National bank next year.


I am no supporter of the Indian government, and the fact that Ashveer insinuated that, obviously knows little about me, or hasnt read my posts. I am more critical to them than anyone else. BUt the government is an obsecure thing. What do you guys see, a bunch of hindu, muslim and sikh guys sitting in a cabinet hearding money.. .Yeah that happens, a lot, too much infact, to the point where I get sick... But there are also guys like Manmohan Singh, Jaswant Singh, Rakshdev Devi, Mohindra Lal Kumar... a lot of people who comprise the government, but have done more good to the country than bad.


And by saying Indians have been passive in their apporach to poverty is really an insult. Because a lot of people see the poverty. They see the world vision commercials, they read the facts, etc... and they believe everyday indians dont care. They may be the case. But there is a HUGE culture of change in India. Univerisity programs, professors, and students, non-governmental organizations, microcredit loan banks, debt soluters, state banks etc... I can go and on and, that are making a change. yeah, the majority of the population may be "passive' in the western sense, but to claim that nothing is doing is horrible.

If you take the Indian population and throw them under the western class system, over 70% of the country would be below middle class. To assume that we expect people of that status to create a change is obsurd. The onus lies in the upper class, the government, and other sources. The upper class is not doing their part. The government is not either, but there are a few peices that are, and the other sources is how India was managed to spilt in half the percentage of people living in poverty over 50 years.... the greatest poverty reduction IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

The Other sources are doing their job. Like I said, Colleges and Univerisites are doing a big part. Microcredit loan banks are @ the forefront of change.



Do I think that there are more corrupt than non-corrupt, not by a long shot. India has still many problems to evaulate. Corruption is high, but not as rampid as Ashveer wants you to think. That doesnt mean Im suporting the government, it just means Im not scapegoating. If you are able to trim poverty that much, there is something that is being done that is right. Its coming from within india.

So poverty in india is my main thing, and assuming Indians are complacent, passive and dont care, is really horrible and uneducated statement. A little in depth research will show you that there is a HUGE massive culture for change that hovers above the everyday man, and middle class....




As far as classism, thats going to exist, no matter what, it was ingrained in our culture. BUt I just find it ironic that bhangra supporters are upset at the Indians for supporting classism, when Bhangra is one of the worst re-inforcers of this. Classism exists, and will exist, and its horrible, but its engrained in the culture, but there are education, and provision put in, usually in the post secondary education systems that try to defeat these sterotypes, but nearly not enough.






For a person raised or born in the west, its very hard to understand everything. You have a negative sterotype of India, being a poorer place. VERY FEW westerners every reach a stage of interest, where they travel into the culture of elite educators that India posses.



If you doubt the progress within india regarding poverty, read Nobel Prize Winners Mohammed Yonus's brook called Micro-Lending and the Battle Against World Poverty


http://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/publicaffairsbooks-cgi-bin/display?book=1586481983



Summinder Singh

 

[Mukandpuria]

Bro, to take all blame off of India for its poverty and classism is not fair. Yes, most people are not in a position to help. But do you honestly believe those in power have done everything they can to change the situation? And the issue of prejudice in regards to caste is mostly in the hands of the people. The western world can do little to change the belief system in India.

In other words put it this way, India is very aware of the situation, when you have other countries braking at the leaders of Indian about their poverty level you have to be really dumb to be able to avoid those and turn the other cheek. When you have TV ads in other countries and internet webpages trying to promote the awareness of India's poverty level you have to be really isolated to not have noticed.

The problem is that they(Indian government) know and only do so much to keep it from blowing up in there fact and other people from doing something about it. The government is corrupt and I think everyone knows it, if not personally experienced it(i have stories for days). Think about it Bollywood has it in every single movie. In fact Bollywood makes fun of that fact! How many movies do you see in America about corrupt American government? maybe one every year(Street Kings)? if 100 grand was sent from USA to Indian by a non-profit organization in America maybe 20 grand would be actually spent on poverty. Think of it this way...Indian Political leaders don't have the type of pressure that America does, where you can say against Bush and not have to worrie about waking up dead the next morning.(As extreme as that sounds i think you get the point) and protest can happen freely, not to say that it can't be done in India but the environment in India is a lot more harsh, there is not enough control in India as there is in America. So why in the world would these corrupt politics give a damm about helping the poor where there other option is making 80 grand.

Poverty in India is a HUGE issue, one that cannot be tackled right now.

I disagree bro, poverty is a HUGE issue and I agree on that part, but its something that will take time. You can't expect to dump money into India to solve the issue becuase once they use all the money they are poor again, it has a lot to do with economy there to and the environments. In America if you are born poor you can work you way up if you really try. In India its harder and not only that you caste work against you to. Its a huge issue that will take time...waiting on it for the "right moment" is not going to help because waiting is only going to make the situation bigger.

 

[Summy]

Poverty in India is a HUGE issue, one that cannot be tackled right now.

I disagree bro, poverty is a HUGE issue and I agree on that part, but its something that will take time. You can't expect to dump money into India to solve the issue becuase once they use all the money they are poor again, it has a lot to do with economy there to and the environments. In America if you are born poor you can work you way up if you really try. In India its harder and not only that you caste work against you to. Its a huge issue that will take time...waiting on it for the "right moment" is not going to help because waiting is only going to make the situation bigger.

I meant, in this forum, not tackled right now, as in the global sense. haha. I agree with your comments though. The lack of governmental policing is also a problem. Your completely right.

 

[Mukandpuria]

And by saying Indians have been passive in their apporach to poverty is really an insult.

I don't think India is passive in the approach but I do think there approach is weak and is if not half assed. I can't sit here and give you numbers but if the government's leaders are corrupt the police official are corrupt, in other words the people who are suppose to hold order and enforce the laws are corrupt do you really expect me to believe they are trying their best to get rid of poverty?

Maybe we are speaking to soon because as you said Summy, the numbers have gotten better and with the out sourcing, the economy will get better and people will have jobs and no longer need to live of 10 RUP a day. The standard of living in India is getting higher, and more money is being brought into Indian, thank god.

I might not read books or articles about poverty all the time, But just simply going to India for the past 10 years once a year if not twice, you can see the difference. its a good damm 8+ hour ride from Delhi to my pind (thank god they are creating an airport in Chandighar) and I can see the poverty with you eyes for the whole 8 hours, flashing statistics and numbers in books and doing research is one thing but seeing it with your eyes is another. numbers and words can be messed with to look a certain way, but personally seeing it with you eyes is more real and you get a better idea. Poverty has gotten better i am not going to deny that, but its not at where it could be is my point,which i think you agree with, but you seem to be cutting India way more slack then you should be.

As far as Africa, I don't see why Africa is being brought up, Africa like you said is broken up in to so many territories, trying to help Africa as a whole is like trying to get rid of poverty in all of Asia. India government has power and an army that is controlled by one Indian government where as every territory has its own army and separate goals and ambitions. One Indian government controls the cash and power where as in Africa its all over the place. There are soo many programs going on where people go to Africa to help build houses and help the poor that India doesn't have. There way 100 commercial on sending 16 dollars a month to some organizations to help keep a child feed and clothed in Africa. Every AID organization in USA has something going on with Africa. India has a duge drug issue especially in the Pinds, but do you see every Drug origination in USA helping India. Africa is on a whole different level than India and their problems and ways of solving those problems are on different levels.

 

[HarmanSingh]

I can see why my post was edited, didnt mean to make it sound like an insult. Just a saying where I come from. ha.

As far as India, I am not really sure, what you guys expect the people to do. First off, we are talking about a place of 1.2 billion people. Poverty is going to exist. Mass poverty is going to exist. If China werent such a close country, you would see India's poverty fails in comparison to China's. When you have population crisis, your going to have poverty, its a simple fact. You look at Africa, a continent with a combined population of about 922 million, that is significantly less than India, but the population crisis in Africa, is much worst off.

Do we ever point a finger to the people of africa. First off, as someone who is well educated in the problems of Africa, and having travelled there a few times, I hate the compression of Africa that many people are guilty of. This may be off on a tangent, but bare with me. Many people refer to Africa as a single enitity. Its made up of 61 territories, and therefore, each country has their own problems, and the grouping of African territories is what leads to many problems that the continent faces. People kind of look it like, "ohh well, africa is a mess. Africa has an aids problem, africa is poor etc"... Its a disservice to a lot of people. Lets use the continent for the sake of the argument.

THe African allied governments have also done little to help. Government are allowing Arab states, and the US to come in and take away natural resources from the people etc... We never point the finger at the African people (if you assume there is a classification like that).


Do I think the Indian government has being doing all that it can do? Not by a long shot. A horribly corrupt government. GOvernments that also exist in Pakistan as we see recently, Banglesdesh, Sri Lanka for almost decades, China, etc... These people are bad people, but the question I pose is why are people blaming the Indian people for the crisis.


For people that think that India is just getting worst and worst, they are mistaken. The problems are out there, and very real, but there is some progress, the progress comes from within.

For example:

27.3% of people in India live below the poverty line. In a country that consists of 1.2 billion, thats a lot of people. However, the median african population below the poverty line is well over 60%.

India's 27.3% is down from a 52% in 1951, and about a decade ago it was around 37%. So, where is this positivity coming from? From withing the country. The median poverty line was lowered because of economic gains seen by India. Specifically, Manmohan Singh, who I respect dearly, almost by himself orchastrated this, and unforunately, he is "part of the government". Other methods for the alleviation of poverty come from within India. Microcredit is a leading cause, this is done within India. Similar to what MOhammed Yonus does with the Grameen bank in India. This has been adopted by state banks, and currently, amongst the farming crisis in Punjab, should be implemented by the Punjab National bank next year.


I am no supporter of the Indian government, and the fact that Ashveer insinuated that, obviously knows little about me, or hasnt read my posts. I am more critical to them than anyone else. BUt the government is an obsecure thing. What do you guys see, a bunch of hindu, muslim and sikh guys sitting in a cabinet hearding money.. .Yeah that happens, a lot, too much infact, to the point where I get sick... But there are also guys like Manmohan Singh, Jaswant Singh, Rakshdev Devi, Mohindra Lal Kumar... a lot of people who comprise the government, but have done more good to the country than bad.


And by saying Indians have been passive in their apporach to poverty is really an insult. Because a lot of people see the poverty. They see the world vision commercials, they read the facts, etc... and they believe everyday indians dont care. They may be the case. But there is a HUGE culture of change in India. Univerisity programs, professors, and students, non-governmental organizations, microcredit loan banks, debt soluters, state banks etc... I can go and on and, that are making a change. yeah, the majority of the population may be "passive' in the western sense, but to claim that nothing is doing is horrible.

If you take the Indian population and throw them under the western class system, over 70% of the country would be below middle class. To assume that we expect people of that status to create a change is obsurd. The onus lies in the upper class, the government, and other sources. The upper class is not doing their part. The government is not either, but there are a few peices that are, and the other sources is how India was managed to spilt in half the percentage of people living in poverty over 50 years.... the greatest poverty reduction IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

The Other sources are doing their job. Like I said, Colleges and Univerisites are doing a big part. Microcredit loan banks are @ the forefront of change.



Do I think that there are more corrupt than non-corrupt, not by a long shot. India has still many problems to evaulate. Corruption is high, but not as rampid as Ashveer wants you to think. That doesnt mean Im suporting the government, it just means Im not scapegoating. If you are able to trim poverty that much, there is something that is being done that is right. Its coming from within india.

So poverty in india is my main thing, and assuming Indians are complacent, passive and dont care, is really horrible and uneducated statement. A little in depth research will show you that there is a HUGE massive culture for change that hovers above the everyday man, and middle class....




As far as classism, thats going to exist, no matter what, it was ingrained in our culture. BUt I just find it ironic that bhangra supporters are upset at the Indians for supporting classism, when Bhangra is one of the worst re-inforcers of this. Classism exists, and will exist, and its horrible, but its engrained in the culture, but there are education, and provision put in, usually in the post secondary education systems that try to defeat these sterotypes, but nearly not enough.






For a person raised or born in the west, its very hard to understand everything. You have a negative sterotype of India, being a poorer place. VERY FEW westerners every reach a stage of interest, where they travel into the culture of elite educators that India posses.



If you doubt the progress within india regarding poverty, read Nobel Prize Winners Mohammed Yonus's brook called Micro-Lending and the Battle Against World Poverty


http://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/publicaffairsbooks-cgi-bin/display?book=1586481983



Summinder Singh

Summy, first I agree with you about Africa. People make the mistake of acting as if Africa is a country, when it is actually a continent. Also, the way African countries are structured and the way their infrastructure is has no comparison to India.

Second, I am not blaming the everday person for their situation in India. Its not like I am asking a homeless person to do something about their situation....I am saying the government and the elite have mismanaged aid, have hoarded money, shown their corrupt nature and given a general disregard to the plight of the poor far too often. And no, not every politician is like this, but far too many are. Couple this with crooked police who let the rich get away with far too much and the you have the recipe for a dire situation India is experiencing. Of course, their is a complex economic issue which I can admit I do not know enough about...but so long as the people who run the country are blatantly corrupt, the progress India is making will be marred by impediments.

Maybe progress has been made..but their will ALWAYS be a road block/glass ceiling so far as their is the belief in the caste system which dictates the poor deserve their condition. So if you acknowledge the deeply ingrained caste system, tell me what exactly you want Indians in the West to do to change the situation? The change must come from within India, and specifically from the rich to show some morality and see the cruelty in which they are preventing their fellow man from living their lives.

 

[Summy]

Harman,

Yeah, I completely agree with your post. Maybe I mis-understood you, but everything in your last post makes sense. The Indian government is corrupt, extremely corrupt. I think your right with the ceiling analogy. But policitians are corrupt, thats what I hate about the Indian government. Firstly, the indian government is really doing a dis-service to themselves. In the long run, promoting a higher, less dependent lower class is better off for the country. The problems lies is that change takes several years, much beyond terms of a politican. India's economy is seeing gains unmatched in the World, and according Fareed Zakaria's book "Post American World", India should have the best economy by 2050. The government needs to capture this and use it for change. But its much easier putting it in your pocket than someone else's, which is the sad reality of the world.

As far as the caste system, thats a problem that is immense and will only get better with education. How do you change something so ingrained in Indian mentaltities over, literally, thousands of years? As sikhs, supposedly, we were supposedly to end this debate of castes, however, it is practiced more heavily in punjab than any other places. If I knew the answer to ending castism in India, I would be a billionaire. The fact of the matter is, like anything, it requires education. For sikhs it is religious education. You teach a sikh what Guru Ji meant when he said, dont adhere to castes. Castes are merely facts of life, put dont imply inferority or superiority. You can educate a hindu saying that Krishen Ji did not mean for inferiority. It merely states that there are types of people that will exist in the world. That each and every type should be treaten equally, and nobody should feel inferior to another.

I think you start that education @ a young age, and you will gradually start to see change. You wont get inter-caste marriages right away, but you'll see less discrimination as far a job hiring's, college admission etc.. .


Abhishek,

Thats why I said africa and india are different, however African countries do comprise a union. The AU is like a managing head, and does control many assests coming into the continent. THe problems that plague each terrority are a lesser scale to India. In fact, you talk to many economists, and Africa would benefit from a centralized government, something many are trying to achieve with the African Union. Its a sad fact that so many government exist in Africa, and thats why you can have a genocide occuring in Darfur, while South Africa has no responsibility to contributing to the ceasing of the genocide.


Im not cutting India any slack. Thats a huge obsecure statement. You need to tell who I am cutting slack to? The 1.2 billion residents, the government, the educational system... Who? The insinuation that upsetted me, was blaming the Indian people and the general population for the lack of progress, and assuming westerners are more adept to change for India. When all the change that people have seen in India regarding poverty has come from within, by the Indian people. No relief organizations, no huge UN spnosored grants etc...

So your gonna have to clarify your state.


Summinder Singh

 

[Varun]

If you are going to talk about human nature, then take this into account: greed fuels progress. If it wasn't for a greed and hunger to develop the economy, then millions of jobs and infrastructure projects would not be created. Rather than worrying about the corrupt nature of politicians, lets focus on the greedy nature of human beings and let that hunger create something positive. Look how much liberalization has done: jobs are being created, middle class is booming, people are striving for education and learning about not being velleh and just having kids but actually supporting yourself. Before, there was a huge labor pool in india but just not the resources to employ them all which brought alot of problems amongst even the educated population. Now that we are seeing money come into the country, it will trickle down on multiple levels. Laborers are needed for projects, college grads are needed for management...there is a lot more openings now.

I know the issue is a lot more complex than this, but think of the economy and how it can benefit the Indian people rather than hoping for some sort of socialist, wealth-redistribution revolution to occur in the heads of corrupt politicians

 

[manveersihota]

i can't believe i'm saying this but for once Summy is actually making sense, although he's being all mean and nasty about it. his points and thoughts are completely valid. but summy plz stop being so nasty, u already have a bad rep on POL and there's no need to do the same for BTF.