pagan vs heaven religions

[pluthra]

Ok, so im not askin which 1 is better or anything. But in class, I heard the best argument for why pagan religions are actually good. Usually pagan religions are just brought down, are seen as terrible, and kinda barbaric (but that word is too harsh).

So, my professor made a point somewhat like this:
Pagan religions are actually not bad because think about this fact if you are a pagan you believe in the value of nature (ex. sun god, water god, fertility god, etc etc etc) and if all societies are worried about these concepts well then theyre not going to go fight over the fact that ohh ur sun god dissed my son god so lets go have war over it. Yet, other religions are based on this universal/heaven/sky god which really doesn't connect with society, but is the reason for many disputes, wars, etc. And when i mean heaven/sky gods I'm refering to Christianity, Judaism, Islam. And all three of these religions cannot represent the heaven because they want to be different from each other right-that's why they created their own sects of very similar religions, yet at the same time I'm not saying all Christians, Jewish,and Muslims-but in general fights break out because their is a religious clash between these religions because they all seem to have to prove something.

ok now, im just questionin myself but.....ok so then why is it that there is a dispute over it....what do u think they really want to prove; why did heaven gods come into place? (ok ya i kno it goes back to like moses talking to god and bringing down to his people the testament) but beyond looking at these facts- why do we have heaven gods; it made sense to be a pagan when societies were establishing but whats the purpose behind the other gods/religions established today? And do you think there would be change- since society has changed and well today society is more industrial its not like we're going to be praying to machines but is there a purpose to religion?

 

[ban3rg]

umm evolutionarily the purpose of religion seems to be to enforce a group mentality. essentially, humans survive better in herds/groups - this is why civilizations arose as different members of a community/society/herd started doing different, specialized tasks (yeah, huge simplification but let's go with it). Since we survive better in groups and are gregarious in nature, requiring social interactions to be mentally healthy, we like to have group mentalities.

So it's better if everyone believes in one thing cuz that's what will make everyone stick together and help each other survive. Now it doesn't matter whether everyone believes in "unity" which is just a concept, or "nature gods" or animism or an Abrahamic or dharmic religion. Everyone just needs to have some common ground so that they stick together and can survive out in the wild and beat up all the mammoths and sabertooth tigers and plant vegetables and grains and so on. that's probably the pre-historic roots of religion - commonality.

Ok, fine. Now why must our religion be Heaven-derived rather than pagan? The idea here is probably that as societies became more complex, and civilizations grew larger and larger, there was a need for some form of government or authority to set order and maintain the peace, prevent crime, and so on.

A Heaven-derived religion is convenient for the purposes of running a society. Imagine if you told someone not to steal because "that would hurt my feelings" versus because "God will smite you and maim/kill you or punish you by sending you to hell." Now this doesn't mean that some sinister guy one day decided to "invent" a religion so he could rule the world by enforcing "the word of God," it just means that heaven-derived religion remained IN FAVOR over time because everyone seems to like the idea that "someone up there is looking out for me" or "even if unjust things happen to me in life, God will ultimately make justice" or "I may be oppressed or sad now, but there is a glorious afterlife waiting for me so I don't care." Religion can be comforting in this way, which is probably why there are so many more people in this world that believe in a God versus atheists.

Ultimately, short answer to your question is, "Heaven religion provides a framework/source/enforcer of morality, whereas pagan religion offers no agent of enforcing morality. A God can make commandments or laws that everyone has to follow else they'll be smitten, but the Sun or a Tree can't punish you if you're evil."

 

[ban3rg]

Oh, how could i forget to mention that religions offer us peace of mind by providing explanations for seemingly un-answerable questions. Without religion, we'd always be frustrated over why we don't know:

How we got here (Creation stories)
Why are we here (we'd go crazy thinking about it)
What can we do to be happy?
Is there something to look forward to even when times are tough (hell yeah, no pun intended)

and also,,,,physics - in earlier times people must have wondered, what is the bright thing in the sky, what's all this wet stuff and why is it here, and why are there tasty creatures swimming in it, why does water fall from the sky sometimes, and why does the earth shake (insert natural disaster here) sometimes...Oh Ok, there is someone causing all this, the causer of all causes, the one who has been here always and since the beginning of time, and these are all his miracles, behold.

Whew, put yourself in the shoes of someone in the paleolithic times or medieval times. He's probably saying, "now I feel a lot better when I walk outside. everything makes sense and i'm not scared of everything anymore"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/04/magazine/04evolution.t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&adxnnlx=1198041076-kbd5/%20mI61KP62dWEBFr6Q&oref=slogin

 

[kinnell]

Parul, you're topics are interesting and have good intentions. However, girl, you need to learn to appropriately group your thoughts in a more understandable manner and in a way which it doesn't seem as offensive.

First of all, please do not refer to Christianity, Judaism and Islam to being religions of heaven and sky gods. The proper term you could have used is monotheistic. I see no reference to a "sky god' in any of these religions. And second of all, many polytheistic religions of Greek, Norse and Egyptian mythology did have their versions of heaven/afterlife. If you served your people well, you were rewarded with Valhalla, the heaven for the Norse. Even Hinduism has roots in pagan religion with nature gods (Surya - Sun God, Indra - Rain God, Varun - Water God).

Arjun brings up great points. Religion offers comfort and fear to society. You get rewarded if you do well and you get punished if you do not. You will see religions be changed as time changes to better fit the needs of the people in society. It seems as time went on, people began to favor a more monotheistic approach to religion. As things started to be explained by science, religions started to (but not all) revolve around a Diety that may work indirectly through events.

I was in Peru this summer and in the city of Cusco, the people there would pray to a statue of Virgin Mary with a huge dress. Most people would identify these people as Christians, but the huge dress on these Virgin Mary statues were triangular and essentially very reminiscent of mountain. People there still reverse Mother Earth and worship her despite being Christians.

 

[Summy]

This is an interesting discussion. I didn't find Parul's post offensive, just poorly worded, but her intentions were admirable.

First off, if we are trying to distinctively set an origin of religions like the abrahamic religions and dharmic religions (I think the word pagan falsely groups a large set of thoughts and religions, while effectively separating the dominant world religion- islam, judaism, and christanity) then it will be a debate that could last a long time, with thousands of different points of view.

Kinnell, Monotheistic is also a highly problematic term that is bounded in prejudice and mis-understanding. Every major religion in this world is monotheistic. Montheistic a word orgnially used to differeniate between ancient thiknig and new abrahamic thinking has now extended to current day religions. Hinduism is monotheistic. The one god, the one power Brahma, and as you put it (surya, varun, indra) they are all demi-gods of the one omniscient being. Although Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj Jee may have gave insinuations of demi gods, as is Sikhism, monotheistic. Very similar to theory of the trinity is christanity, that god the father, the son of god (demi god jesus), and the power of God, make up the spirit of God himself. So to call the abrahamic religion monotheistic is highly problematic because as is Hinduism and Jainism. We can branh Jainism and Buddhism if you want in there, because they focus more in on a central power, but again, one central power.


Arjun provided one logic. The fact that god gave reason to the unexplainable. That with disease, natural diasters, etc.. running wild, god became an excuse, certainly one that I have heard from the atheist community a lot. Well, there is a flip side to that. That however doesnt explain the nature of how religion came about, how the thoughts of religion developed and how socities for centuries have been connected. If God was an explaination to the unexplainable how did socieites pass on these thoughts of God, and in what manner. Because Parul posed the question focusing in on "heaven gods", we need not look further than the transition period between the greeks, and christain theology.


Ancient greek gods acted yes, as an explanation, but Greek gods had a designation. The god of this, the god of that... In Greek theology, unlike today, the mystics were to be proven. The god of War, was to be summed and must have showed some sort of godly aspects that would carry out during war. Unlike today, where God is a being one may pray to and expect no immediate gain.

When did the transition happen from one praying in need of results and one in the need for spirituality? Is this where the transition came from ancient greek gods and a more manly connection, a more everyday connection, and ability to connect with the everyday man, to biblical theology which uses god as a being that may or may not have an everyday man-to man connection? It is one theory.

There are thousands of theory's one can state, it is such a broad and immense question, it really is hard to tackle.


But Parul brought up an interesting point, the history between fighting of the three major testament religions, Judaism, Islam and Christanity. There has been an immense history between the clashes of these three religion, not in current day times, but back to the orgins of each religion and beyond. Why do people think so? Every religion has fought, but it is no secret that these three religions have centralized disagreements over the same doctrines, is this the problem or something larger? Are there examples of text that supports the argument that these three religons will be at disagreements till the end of time?

What do people think?

 

[ban3rg]

Correct me if I am wrong, Summy, but you're question is "Why are there conflicts between Islam, Judaism and Christianity?" Or are you asking why there are religious conflicts in general?

Well, one reason could be that (in most religions anyway) God is an absolute power that cannot be compromised or reasoned/negotiated with.

Basically, if one guy says "We should do X because my God says so" and another says, "Oh yeah, well we should do Y because MY god said so!" Then you are at a stalemate because neither side can make allowances on their own God. This is what I think is the main reason behind separation of church and state (imagine in our Congress if someone said, "Taxes should be X% because My god says so!" then there'd be no room for debate or problem-solving, listen to this guy or else you are a heretic/heathen/ etc.)

so religious conflicts arise because god's word cannot be negotiated with. at the point where even the NAME of your god matters (Islam and Christianity may essentially preach the same thing but neither side will willingly interchange the name of their own god for the other - Muslims will stick to Allah and Christians to Jesus, regardless of the similarities between the two figures) there is always going to be conflict.

"Jesus says unless you love him and worship him you will not be saved, and you will go to Hell."

"I disagree."

"Oh yeah well screw you blah blah blah fighting fighting fighting...." He won't say, "Oh, you disagree? Let's come to a compromise where we can both agree on some middle ground." hahaha, how absurd to even think of that

 

[sulmoney]

so religious conflicts arise because god's word cannot be negotiated with. at the point where even the NAME of your god matters (Islam and Christianity may essentially preach the same thing but neither side will willingly interchange the name of their own god for the other - Muslims will stick to Allah and Christians to Jesus, regardless of the similarities between the two figures) there is always going to be conflict.

actually arjun, the difference between jesus in islam and jesus in christianity is probably THE major difference between the two faiths.

 

[ban3rg]

im sure you meant "allah in islam" but yeah i understand that, with the interpretations of jesus being a person who interacts with other people and "walks among men," that itself is a distinction.


i should have said the TEACHINGS of the two figures. though they are very similar they are not interchangeable. let that be a correction to the previous post.

im sure we will all agree that the teachings are very similar in the sense of the most vital message: be kind to others, pursue truth/honesty, be moral, follow golden rule, etc. there will not be any difference along those lines.

 

[faysal]

Just to randomly butt in to this because I found it a very interesting read, but I'm pretty sure he did mean Jesus in Islam too, as his story in both religions has vital differences, specifically the story of his resurrection.

p.s. Summy if you want more detailed answers from someone that knows a lot more than any of us probably do, I would suggest you look up someone like Dr.Zakir Naik, he's held many seminars about this kind of topic, the differences between the religions etc I don't know if there's videos on the net quite yet though.

 

[ban3rg]

Ohhhhhh, of course. Jesus in Islam is a good point too. never mind.

just to run with this, I think it's cool that religions incorporate other religions' figures into their own as "prophets" or "likeminded proponents of the same message" such as jesus in islam or the Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu

 

[sulmoney]

im sure you meant "allah in islam" but yeah i understand that, with the interpretations of jesus being a person who interacts with other people and "walks among men," that itself is a distinction.

bitch, i aint stutter (i always wanted to say that haha)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

 

[kinnell]

just to run with this, I think it's cool that religions incorporate other religions' figures into their own as "prophets" or "likeminded proponents of the same message" such as jesus in islam or the Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu

See the religion of Bahai.

 

[pluthra]

sorry if it came out rude; when i mean universe/heaven gods yes i am refering to the monotheistic religions-but it was just a characteristic to describe them (to show god is from heaven) in no way was it intended to look down on any religion; and from now i'll try to edit my posts before posting them.

Ok, so arjun made the point that religion establishes laws, which is true in history. But, what's the purpose of religion now. I know we can't just get rid of religions and sure there are grounds on which religion may be necessary, but is it really structure or lives? Did it really teach society that stealing is wrong-because I think such things were understood before monotheistic religions came about. And, during that time the situation was more like this (somewhat like this): a person could have died about any day-its like they needed a source of hope -this is really seen during the Middle Ages were people did become really religious and Christianity had probably one of its largest peaks. But, what is the purpose of it now?

As far as the transition between paganism and Islam didn't that begin after the angel Gabriel was sent down to Muhammad and then after Muhammad tried convincing the people of his tribe that he was chosen as a messenger of god's word to the people, yet the people of his tribe just thought he was crazy, so he then moved to Mecca. Then after awhile, the tribe he had once lived in some disastrous event had occured there and then they finally believed his words. Usually there's always a miracle to go along with the rise of a religion-that's somewhat awkward as well. Yet, where was the miracle in judaism?

As far as Summy's question about whether the clashes are directly related to the religions or something else, I dont think it has to do with religion. I feel like it was more social. As in, societies saw immense differences in each other. There were probably points at which they questioned the society they lived in and why people acted in such a way, or maybe why there was not enough control/freedom within that society that they decided that they want to be a part of something new, and what has more influence then religion. People cannot just go by and say we get into fights with these people because there religion makes no sense to us, when really it does. I doubt the Israel/Palestine conflict has very little to do with religion. It goes completely into cultural/social aspects and to the fact that one group of people are unwilling to accept and adhere to another group of people. Actually, that just seems like the problem to everything (ex. slavery, colonization, inequality, weird reasons to not allow immigration in countries that need to increase their population, a greed for power, a bunch of people dying everywhere, and oh just a lot of hate).....I wonder what someone's response to that question (why do the 3 abrahimic religions often get into fights witheach other) would be say? (someone say who lives in Israel or Palestine, or is a part of Hamas, Kach, etc)....and if they were asked well is it really hate for the religion or do you just hate the people what they would say? Would they accepting to hear how their enemy's religion is similar to theres? Do they already know of the similarities, if so why can't they find compromise between each other?

 

[Summy]

Parul, you asked what the purpose of religion is today. Without going crazy, and keeping it simple, religion is a way of life. Religion is more than rules, laws that must be followed to live a god life, religion is a connection, it is spirituality. We dont have 10 commandments, or rules, we have a way to live your life, to benefit everyone around you. Religion is more a justification for actions, religion is more than just rules. Religion is a way, separate from the entity of god, as a direction, as a path for a good life, a life beneficial to everyone around you.

Religious clashes between Christanity, Judaism and Islam have been more frequent that other clashes. I am not talking about countries with predominatly those views, I am talking about wars based in the difference of lifestyles that stem from religion. We can say today, democracy, a christan thought, against monoarchy's and polyarchy's, a more south asian derived school of thought, can be the basis of war in iraq, afghanistan. The american govenrment wants to inforce democracy to a land that may not be best suited for those ideals. The British sent forth these values in India, that may not have been best suited for us.

Lots of people talk about how clashes start with the difference in opinion about religion. Well, historically, if we look at south asia, compared to christan dominated western lands, wars broke out typically because of land conflicts. In dharmic religions, they teach judgement is bad. Meaning, religious judgment (what many people argue as the basis of many conflicts) is a sin, a huge one. Claiming another religious person is wrong in their views is horrible. Partly why is religions like sikhi, hinduism, buddhism, and jainism, it is wrong to convert, your not supposed to, another sin. It implies that you teach another person, why their way of life is not as good as ours. I include Islam in this thinking historically, because of its proximity to south asian religions, even though Islam does support conversion.

It is a foundation that Maharaj Ranjit Singh used, religious equality. Without going to a huge thing about western stragies starting with Napleon of incuding religious for more pious wars, for means of land, we should realize, that at one time, the wars being fought, were essentialy land disputes.


But today's day and age, it is distinctively arguments about ways of thinking, philosophy. When did the world go from arguing to gain land (Greed) to fighting about prejudice nazi's, to people fighting for the use of democracy, and people fighting under the name of their religion.

When was the transition made? What was the significant event? There has defintely been a shift in thinking, that wars have become a idealistic fight, why do people think this is?

I have my theory, but would like other input.

 

[ban3rg]

im sure you meant "allah in islam" but yeah i understand that, with the interpretations of jesus being a person who interacts with other people and "walks among men," that itself is a distinction.

bitch, i aint stutter (i always wanted to say that haha)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

hahahaha yea my bad, i wrote allah/jesus and then you wrote jesus/jesus so in the heat of the moment i thought it was a freudian slip. anyway, as soon as that was clarified, i went ahead and read the wiki on "Jesus in Islam" which was very interesting!

I am very very uninformed about the Baha'i faith (as I am with Zoroastrianism, for that matter). working on that now.

Parul, OF COURSE religion has purpose today. COME ONNNNNN duuuuude.

Like Summy said, who cares how much more we have modernized since the Middle Ages. What about all those arguments I made about unity and community-mentality? Don't we still need religion for that?

Don't people still make potentially difficult decisions every day, every hour? Imagine the 8fold path of Buddhism, is that not a timeless rubric for how to lead one's life?

And what about peace of mind? We need that now more than ever? There are other ways to achieve peace of mind, but concentrating on the ultimate power sure as hell is a good method.

Yeah, I just wrote a very colloquial, informal post, wanna fight about it?

 

[Kamran786]

Just for some quick clarifications I don?t think Judaism has a heaven or hell. And it would be better to label these religions as ?Abrahamic? rather than ?heaven? just because the category of ?heaven religions? is not accurate enough.

I think heaven gods came into place because many humans have the inclination to wanting to believe in a higher power. This is also true for the many humans who may be inclined to not believing in a higher power. This may be prevalent amongst those who are less fortunate or going through hardship amongst many other things. The real answer can be subjective though since none of us have been around since the dawn of our human race.

The purpose behind the other religions today, as Summy put it, is to establish a way of life for individuals. Some individuals may feel that they do not need religion to structure their life but there is an overwhelming population of people that uses religion to structure their lives. This can also be true for those who may classify themselves as pagans.

A lot of religions are changing with times just as society has. We have seen religions like the Mormon faith and other Christian denominations change perpetually as time goes by. But there are other religions like Sikhism and Islam that have gone untouched since their inception. I think you?ll learn from this that not all religions are the same and not all religions will behave the same. Some will change, some won?t. Some may seem to serve a purpose and some may seem to be pointless, depending on your outlook.

Its heavily dictated by one?s perception.

 

[ban3rg]

felt like checking out kamranistan.com....

SRIRACHA IS THE BEST!

 

[Kamran786]

felt like checking out kamranistan.com....

SRIRACHA IS THE BEST!

Hah thanks man. I took a break from it though. I had it one night for dinner , but I had too much. The next day at work I was stuck on the shitter for 20 minutes. Painful. But its Painful pleasure I guess.

Holla

 

[Meistro]

I believe in Pochmi paganism.

 

[ban3rg]

hahahahaha oh yea this is a new faith that has just been developed 1 or 2 days ago. everyone ascribe to it.