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Pagg Malfunction Issue at Bhangra Blowout 2015 [From Shoutbox]

scaplash

Husky Bhangra (retired); KWG; GR
Messages
127
Not to deviate too much from the original topic, but I think Shawn brings up a good point, more people should learn how to tie paghs, the resources are out there and I think a lot of people get intimidated by it-either by thinking they have to be sardars to know how to tie them properly or that it will take years and years to learn how to tie them. While its definitely true that it takes a lot of practice to tie really nice looking paghs (in terms of clean, proper larhs and turle), it also doesn't take too much to learn how to basically tie one-it might not be the prettiest, but learning the fundamentals doesn't take as much time and effort as I feel like people are led to believe.
-Sonny
 

mithu

Active Member
Messages
793
scaplash said:
Not to deviate too much from the original topic, but I think Shawn brings up a good point, more people should learn how to tie paghs, the resources are out there and I think a lot of people get intimidated by it-either by thinking they have to be sardars to know how to tie them properly or that it will take years and years to learn how to tie them. While its definitely true that it takes a lot of practice to tie really nice looking paghs (in terms of clean, proper larhs and turle), it also doesn't take too much to learn how to basically tie one-it might not be the prettiest, but learning the fundamentals doesn't take as much time and effort as I feel like people are led to believe.
-Sonny

So according to couple of you guys, just blame the pagh tier for not tying paghs properly instead of captains and dancers learning the proper etiwuette and respect. Every year this happens, it always comes down to "dont blame captain or dancers but someone else."


Why is this even a discussion anymore? It shouldnt be. It should be common sense for ANY BHANGRA DANCER TO RESPECTFULLY TAKE THEIR PAGH OFF AND PU IT ON A CHAIR OR TABLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
 

hardeep_singh

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,463
RsKderpu said:
The best way to handle/resolve this is for the team (or dancer whose pagh fell off) to formally apologize to the community.
just curious but when should the community expect to receive a formal apology for that shair you fucked up at burgh 7? cuz bro 90% of the women in the circuit could have done it better than you.

mithu said:
Why is this even a discussion anymore? It shouldnt be. It should be common sense for ANY BHANGRA DANCER TO RESPECTFULLY TAKE THEIR PAGH OFF AND PU IT ON A CHAIR OR TABLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
the fact that you restated what has been said before in capital letters most definitely got the point across no matter how many times it's been said before, thanks FOR THE CAPITALIZATION.
 

SGupta7

Member
Messages
109
hardeep_singh said:
mithu said:
Why is this even a discussion anymore? It shouldnt be. It should be common sense for ANY BHANGRA DANCER TO RESPECTFULLY TAKE THEIR PAGH OFF AND PU IT ON A CHAIR OR TABLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
the fact that you restated what has been said before in capital letters most definitely got the point across no matter how many times it's been said before, thanks FOR THE CAPITALIZATION.

At the end of the day, three people need to be on top of their shit when it comes to paghan. Pagh tier, captain, and dancer. If a pagh tier fucks up, it's on the captain and dancer to ensure that they know what to do in that situation. That means talking about it in practice and making sure everyone is on the same page about how to respectfully deal with a loose pagh. If the pagh tier ties a beautiful pagh that will hold on stage, it's on the dancer to not be a bitch and fuck with it before going on stage. It's the captains job to oversee all of this before going on stage. This isn't a super difficult concept haha



I feel like everyone is trying to shit on someone in this thread, rather than saying some shit that's actually helpful. Bottom line: if you think you might be doing something disrespectful to a pagh, don't fucking do that thing (leaving it on stage, touching it with your foot, throwing it, etc.). People do a lot of dumb shit, but this is pretty easy to avoid.
 

Pendu

New Member
Messages
23
SGupta7 said:
At the end of the day, three people need to be on top of their shit when it comes to paghan. Pagh tier, captain, and dancer. If a pagh tier fucks up, it's on the captain and dancer to ensure that they know what to do in that situation. That means talking about it in practice and making sure everyone is on the same page about how to respectfully deal with a loose pagh. If the pagh tier ties a beautiful pagh that will hold on stage, it's on the dancer to not be a bitch and fuck with it before going on stage. It's the captains job to oversee all of this before going on stage. This isn't a super difficult concept haha



I feel like everyone is trying to shit on someone in this thread, rather than saying some shit that's actually helpful. Bottom line: if you think you might be doing something disrespectful to a pagh, don't fucking do that thing (leaving it on stage, touching it with your foot, throwing it, etc.). People do a lot of dumb shit, but this is pretty easy to avoid.

Preach, nothing more really needs to be said.
 

Ashveer

New Member
Messages
492
SGupta7 said:
hardeep_singh said:
mithu said:
Why is this even a discussion anymore? It shouldnt be. It should be common sense for ANY BHANGRA DANCER TO RESPECTFULLY TAKE THEIR PAGH OFF AND PU IT ON A CHAIR OR TABLE REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY ARE DOING.
the fact that you restated what has been said before in capital letters most definitely got the point across no matter how many times it's been said before, thanks FOR THE CAPITALIZATION.

At the end of the day, three people need to be on top of their shit when it comes to paghan. Pagh tier, captain, and dancer. If a pagh tier fucks up, it's on the captain and dancer to ensure that they know what to do in that situation. That means talking about it in practice and making sure everyone is on the same page about how to respectfully deal with a loose pagh. If the pagh tier ties a beautiful pagh that will hold on stage, it's on the dancer to not be a bitch and fuck with it before going on stage. It's the captains job to oversee all of this before going on stage. This isn't a super difficult concept haha



I feel like everyone is trying to shit on someone in this thread, rather than saying some shit that's actually helpful. Bottom line: if you think you might be doing something disrespectful to a pagh, don't fucking do that thing (leaving it on stage, touching it with your foot, throwing it, etc.). People do a lot of dumb shit, but this is pretty easy to avoid.

There appears to be a great deal of heavy handedness and a complete myopia of the actually existing history (rather than the NA bhangra community's 15-year-old valorization) of the pagg. I don't disagree that the pagg deserves respect, but I am also Sikh and tired of people conflating the bhangra pagg with the Sikh pagg as if all paggs were created equal. Move on over to UP/Bihar Jats and look at paggs there and their connotation. Those Jats culturally smoke all the time, and wear paggs. Yeah, its real. Look at all the paggs (and chunnis for that matter) that touch or are thrown on the floor and not picked up in everyday life in the west and in Punjab. Such situations are not treated as an ontological breach of the sacred and the profane that some on this forum try to make it out to be. I'm not saying that paggs don't deserve respect: that would be stupid. But loading the bhangra pagg with this insane symbolic rhetoric of "respect" is at best misguided in relation to the Sikh lived experience outside of your upper middle caste university educated diasporic bhangra world of rules made up by kids who are trying to make sense of their identity or our respected elders who claim their own similarly imagined bhangra authority even though contemporary bhangra is way better than theirs ever was. When you start policing people's real actions that "disrespect the pagg" in the bhangra circuit, I'll believe it. Until then you're living in a self-constructed magical unicornland that exists in a judges rubric and serves your own self-aggrandizement.



Re Yankee: I think a lot of people actually would buck the trend of wearing paggan in bhangra comps. Its not a Sikh pagg. Its just part of a costume. Yes, a costume. Something that has 60 years of made up history is certainly a costume. Leaving the dastaar out of it would be giving the dastaar the 'actual' respect that it deserves. My point is that we've de-valued the pagg by making it a requirement for getting points in competitions. If we took it out, it could never be disrespected. Sad thing is you can't win a comp without paggan, even if you tie it on people who don't give a shit about what it means. In my mind that's much more disrespectful in the first place.
 

hardeep_singh

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,463
lol ashveer you're addressing a generation that believes that it's perfectly normal to get tattoos of religious symbols as a way of showing your "religious pride", that sees no conflict of interests in getting wasted on a saturday night before going to gurudwara on sunday morning. some of em even do ardaas/paath before performing at a competition only to get fucked up at the afterparty, that's like asking for god's blessings on your tinder endeavors. the bhangra pagg issue is just another example of overzealous punjabi/sikh machismo being forced upon an aspect of punjabi culture completely detached from sikhi. no one in the right mind would ever wear a bhangra pagg to a gurudwara.
it's so much easier to shit on them than to actually try to educate them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0_I5qHeIO8
 

Mr. Mankiran

Active Member
Messages
127
hardeep_singh said:
lol ashveer you're addressing a generation that believes that it's perfectly normal to get tattoos of religious symbols as a way of showing your "religious pride", that sees no conflict of interests in getting wasted on a saturday night before going to gurudwara on sunday morning. some of em even do ardaas/paath before performing at a competition only to get fucked up at the afterparty, that's like asking for god's blessings on your tinder endeavors. the bhangra pagg issue is just another example of overzealous punjabi/sikh machismo being forced upon an aspect of punjabi culture completely detached from sikhi. no one in the right mind would ever wear a bhangra pagg to a gurudwara.
it's so much easier to shit on them than to actually try to educate them
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0_I5qHeIO8

+100 :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 

nathan.e

New Member
Messages
10
Irrespective of all the discussions about respect, religion, culture, and self-constructed magic unicornlands (don't get me wrong, I appreciated your point and the rhetoric, but in a post about heavy-handedness you got a little heavy-handed yourself...) -- the reason this whole issue is so unfortunate every time it comes up is best seen from the perspective of the performing team. They have prepared months for a competition, practiced countless hours, reworked their set and their mix and put so much time and effort into their performance... only for it to be completely disregarded from placing potential almost outright for a single issue with one aspect of one dancer's costume. Granted, singular major errors in performances can strongly affect placing potential, like blatant forgotten choreo by someone in the front, someone slipping or falling or dropping a prop, etc. But usually, a team with a stellar performance can still place even with a "major" mistake. A pagh coming off, though, especially if there is any "error" in how the dancer responds to the problem, typically results in insurmountable point deductions.


I am not trying to say that pagh issues aren't a problem to be taken seriously, nor am I trying to downplay the fact that 1. pagh's really should be tied and handled well enough to not fall off, and 2. dancers should know how to "properly" react to their pagh coming loose or falling off, I'm just trying to highlight how shitty it is for the team in question when a pagh malfunction happens. When I was watching DRP at blowout last weekend, which happened to be my favorite set of the night, I was really sad when I started to see the pagh come loose. Everyone could see it coming, and I immediately felt terrible because I knew they would have no chance of placing. It was early in the set too, and for the rest of their performance I felt worse and worse because their performance was fantastic but I knew that it wouldn't be recognized or remembered for the actual set and dancing. And it's true -- I haven't seen anyone really talk about their set on BTF (not that there is that much discussion/commentary on here of late), yet there is this big thread on the one thing anyone seems to care about, the fact that a pagh came off. A similar thing happened last year at blowout with VCU, a pagh coming off and an improper handling of the situation (significantly more improper, but still an isolated incident in the performance), which likely took away any chance they had of placing. I actually loved that performance, too, and if I remember correctly most related discussion was focused on the pagh coming off and not the set itself.


I can't say I really know what the appropriate ruling or handling (scoring/judging-wise) of pagh malfunctions should be, but it's easy not to realize how unfortunate it is for the team. DRP had a great performance and a great set, lots of energy, a really good mix, very entertaining overall, but all their work and all the heart their dancers showed in their performance were, due to the huge repercussions for a pagh coming off, essentially overlooked. And compared to other major errors, like falling, forgetting choreo, etc, it's not even something they really could have prepared for. Sometimes a pagh doesn't get tied super well, and maybe there wasn't time to get it adjusted or re-tied. It happens to come loose on stage and suddenly you're out of consideration for a placing. Not to say that placings are all that matter, which is basically the opposite of the truth, but it's sad to see a great performance hidden in the shadow of one poorly tied pagh, both from a judging and even a feedback/response perspective. That being said, I wish them all the best and hope they get the recognition they deserved (in my opinion) at Bruin.
 
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