Punjabis and Violence

[Jeeti]

In attending Elite 8 and seeing the activity on this forum, I began to try and figure out how in the world the punjabi culture and violence have become so closely affiliated. I think the only good way to find the answer to something is to start with introspection.. I certainly have been raised in an environment where violence especially in the context of "self defense" were never necessarily frowned upon and I think I've gotten myself in regrettable situations because of that. In my experience, machismo stories of our past generation's upbringings have been passed down for years. I'm fairly certain that the insults over what we are willing to get physical about now are very different from the more serious insults that our ancestors were presented with. Just a few examples.. since this is a bhangra forum..certainly there has been violence between bhangra teams or threats of violence between bhangra teams which may have started out as minor offenses which have now escalated. Another example..I have most certainly also attended punjabi parties where a fight started over one man stepping on another man's shoe..and the list can go on and on. My question to the community is how do we correct this not only for our future generation but the situation at present? How do we reverse the close association of punjabis with violence? How do we replace the immediate violent response..with the "being the bigger man" response? Obviously, it begins with leading by example..more importantly, the glorifying of violence and violent stories must stop. If our future generations are also raised in an environment where the lines weren't clearly drawn and stories of machismo and violence continue, they will be faced with the same issues.


It is a shame to think that bhangra competitions which are supposed to be one of the strongest representations of our culture and its people result in nothing but conflict and animosity. Instead of standing together to asses situations which affect our culture as a whole, we are too busy fighting and arguing with each other. We are a proud and very capable culture and I think we can all do better and lead a better example for our future generations...myself included*


But I digress, my question to the community is..Where do we start? What kind of things can we do as a community to resolve these issues?


* not preaching..


this is my opinion..and for those that do not think that most punjabis of our generation were raised in an environment where violence and self defense were not frowned upon then I apologize..this is just my perspective and my best opinion as to why theres so much conflict. Please keep the discussion civil and productive...this post is a general observation of the current state of the scene and is not targeted at anyone.

 

[voxanimus]

While I myself am not Punjabi, this is a topic over which I have also pondered considerably, and I guess I'll share what I've thought of.

Jeeti, you mentioned that there needs to be a shift away from the "violent response" towards a more measured approach, in which either party strives to be the "bigger man." And I think that that is where the majority of the issue lies, at least in modern times.

People tend to follow by example, and at one time (for probably good reason), jumping to a "violent response" was equated with "being the bigger man." Perhaps this stems from nationalistic pride as a reaction to British occupation; I don't really know. What I do know is that times have changed, and I echo your sentiment that this is no longer a proper or even desirable course of action.

I have indeed noticed that many of the Sikh gurus were warriors, and this aspect of their persona was highly emphasized in the historical retelling of their exploits and whatnot. I don't mean to question Sikh culture or doctrine; I'm merely pointing out this fact. I also don't mean to equate Sikhs with all Punjabis: I realize that they are not one and the same. However, I think that Punjabi culture heavily borrows from that of Sikhism, much how a large part of the culture of Middle Eastern countries borrows from that of Islam. The humanitarian, altruistic aspects of these individuals, along with the rationale behind the violence in which they participated has been stripped away by ubiquity and general ignorance. All that's left, in my opinion, is a rather vaguely-based association between them and war and violence. Over time, both through emulation and assimilation, this association has extended to Punjabi culture in general. Essentially, people (probably both consciously and unconsciously) have used and continue to use the examples of these individuals as justification for a violent attitude.

Obviously, this isn't the whole story, nor is it even correct. It's simply an observation I have arrived at after contemplating the issue from the vantage point of a non-Punjabi. In drawing generalizations about Sikhism and Punjabi culture, I merely expressed that which I have observed, and certainly didn't mean to offend anyone or pass crass judgment.

 

[ranjit singh]

alcohol

 

[Jas13]

alcohol

+1

 

[Ashveer]

Jeeti just give it another generation or two. Our kids will fight less and so on and so on.

I've always thought that it also has to do with education. Not because educated are less inclined to be inherently violent, but the more educated you are, the more embedded you are in social and political networks that will suffer if you get into a fight.

 

[faizan]

Jeeti just give it another generation or two. Our kids will fight less and so on and so on.

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[/size]not while songs like this reign supreme. k s makhan song fight New punjabi songs -- 2009 HD
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[font=verdana, sans-serif][/size]What a refreshing topic Jeeti![/font]

 

[KG]

The problem you're describing isn't just unique to Punjabi culture though because the issue of hyper masculinity and violence isn't just confined to Punjabi culture. You should watch Tough Guise (Jackson Katz) and Beyond Beats and Rhymes (Byron Hurst) I think they are both up on youtube... though the byron hurst documentary is far more engaging.


Basically I think it's more of a media imposed celebration of violence that permeates into most cultures. A lot of bhangra songs are about strength and dominance and panga, lol. Albeit, it's still kind of an issue that violence isn't frowned up by families. But as Ashveer said, hopefully with time that will change with time.

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

Interesting points guys. Like others said in acute situations alcohol is playing the biggest role. People lose their sense of judgement and when they are in a confrontation their fight-flight instinct is thinking 'I MUST FIGHT AND SMASH AND PROTECT MY REP. BRUAHHHH'

Another thing that came to mind is what is the family life like of people who get into fights? Is there a history of physical abuse in their life? I'm sure we all know Punjabi families where there is and I know this might be purely anecdotal but the kids usually end up using violence and physical intimidation more in their interactions with people.

 

[hardeep_singh]

1 thing everyone is forgetting is history; why do you think violence is common place in punjab? the whole region of punjab has been exposed to alot of chaos over the course of thousands of years. wars, invasions, civil wars, religious conflicts over and over again. basically what punjabis learn growing up is 3 things, defend your land, defend your family, defend your religion; in punjab its acceptable to use whatever force necessary. this is a bhangra forum so think of all the songs that highlight conflicts over minor insults "jazzy b - soorma" "jelly - doliyach jaan" "g-deep - sher punjabi" we've all danced to these songs so we should all understand that these songs are all about violence. stuff like that is common place in punjab where some one will insult some one else next thing you know u got two groups of kids with hockey sticks beatin the crap out of each other. its not tough to understand how kids growing up with all that turn to violence even if they dont live in punjab, they feel that violence is a part of being punjabi, that if you arent prepared to throw down whenever something happens you're not a true punjabi. one big example of this that most people aren't aware of is punjabi gangs in vancouver,
http://www.the-nri.com/index.php/2010/10/domination-of-indian-gangs-vancouver-canada/
i saw a documentary about all the gang violence thats been ocurring there, its just desi guys who feel they have a place in these gangs because it gives them power, it's pretty much the old school punjabi hyper masculinity and bravado fueling all this gang violence. some people learn some people don't but part of being punjabi or sikh is to always be prepared to defend your family, religion, or land and that's not gonna change anytime soon.

 

[Jeeti]

1 thing everyone is forgetting is history; why do you think violence is common place in punjab? the whole region of punjab has been exposed to alot of chaos over the course of thousands of years. wars, invasions, civil wars, religious conflicts over and over again. basically what punjabis learn growing up is 3 things, defend your land, defend your family, defend your religion; in punjab its acceptable to use whatever force necessary. this is a bhangra forum so think of all the songs that highlight conflicts over minor insults "jazzy b - soorma" "jelly - doliyach jaan" "g-deep - sher punjabi" we've all danced to these songs so we should all understand that these songs are all about violence. stuff like that is common place in punjab where some one will insult some one else next thing you know u got two groups of kids with hockey sticks beatin the crap out of each other. its not tough to understand how kids growing up with all that turn to violence even if they dont live in punjab, they feel that violence is a part of being punjabi, that if you arent prepared to throw down whenever something happens you're not a true punjabi. one big example of this that most people aren't aware of is punjabi gangs in vancouver,
http://www.the-nri.com/index.php/2010/10/domination-of-indian-gangs-vancouver-canada/
i saw a documentary about all the gang violence thats been ocurring there, its just desi guys who feel they have a place in these gangs because it gives them power, it's pretty much the old school punjabi hyper masculinity and bravado fueling all this gang violence. some people learn some people don't but part of being punjabi or sikh is to always be prepared to defend your family, religion, or land and that's not gonna change anytime soon.

I think we all understand that..the issue here is that history and the youth believing in that history has blurred the lines between self defense and acts of violence..defense of family, pride, and religion are undisputed among punjabis...but many conflicts which result in violence or threats of violence that we see today have nothing to do with family, pride, or religion. The stupid meaningless issues which is causing violence are being justified in individual's heads by this long history of bravado...and this is what needs to change and in order to change it we need to give our youth a better idea of what kind of situations would justify acts of violence. Generations before us would probably laugh at the petty issues that we are willing to fight over given all that they have been through.

 

[hardeep_singh]

that's what i was implying is that the bravado and hyper masculinity is being displaced to trivial endeavors like gangs and just random fights over minor insults. its so common that no one really questions it, we also learn that behavior from our elders, i've seen plenty of older people fighting at parties for no reason, that imagery is propagated through media also, you see drunk violent punjabis in movies, u got songs about fighting punjabis and the music videos generally dont hold back on that imagery either. so its gonna require some social change for people to realize that violence isn't always the solution (just sometimes ).

 

[ENVY BANG-RUH]

My question is, how are you supposed to stop the fighting between punjabis at parties, especially when there is alcohol involved, but no one looks to resolve the fights that go on in the guru ghar?

People aren't fighting anyone but themselves.

 

[HarmanSingh]

It is a shame to think that bhangra competitions which are supposed to be one of the strongest representations of our culture and its people result in nothing but conflict and animosity.

This is the key problem. Bhangra should not be the strongest representation of Punjabi culture.

Just as many bhangra competitions there are where people go buck wild and make all Punjabis look like buffoons, there are charity and community events which truly represent the Punjabi culture. But the good is always negated by the bad when you are a minority.

 

[HarmanSingh]

1 thing everyone is forgetting is history; why do you think violence is common place in punjab? the whole region of punjab has been exposed to alot of chaos over the course of thousands of years. wars, invasions, civil wars, religious conflicts over and over again. basically what punjabis learn growing up is 3 things, defend your land, defend your family, defend your religion; in punjab its acceptable to use whatever force necessary. this is a bhangra forum so think of all the songs that highlight conflicts over minor insults "jazzy b - soorma" "jelly - doliyach jaan" "g-deep - sher punjabi" we've all danced to these songs so we should all understand that these songs are all about violence. stuff like that is common place in punjab where some one will insult some one else next thing you know u got two groups of kids with hockey sticks beatin the crap out of each other. its not tough to understand how kids growing up with all that turn to violence even if they dont live in punjab, they feel that violence is a part of being punjabi, that if you arent prepared to throw down whenever something happens you're not a true punjabi. one big example of this that most people aren't aware of is punjabi gangs in vancouver,
http://www.the-nri.com/index.php/2010/10/domination-of-indian-gangs-vancouver-canada/
i saw a documentary about all the gang violence thats been ocurring there, its just desi guys who feel they have a place in these gangs because it gives them power, it's pretty much the old school punjabi hyper masculinity and bravado fueling all this gang violence. some people learn some people don't but part of being punjabi or sikh is to always be prepared to defend your family, religion, or land and that's not gonna change anytime soon.

I think we all understand that..the issue here is that history and the youth believing in that history has blurred the lines between self defense and acts of violence..defense of family, pride, and religion are undisputed among punjabis...but many conflicts which result in violence or threats of violence that we see today have nothing to do with family, pride, or religion. The stupid meaningless issues which is causing violence are being justified in individual's heads by this long history of bravado...and this is what needs to change and in order to change it we need to give our youth a better idea of what kind of situations would justify acts of violence. Generations before us would probably laugh at the petty issues that we are willing to fight over given all that they have been through.

Sadly, our older generations have failed us. They are often at the root of the problem (all the fighting that goes on in houses of worship, the domestic violence problem in our communities, notions of "manhood" and "masculinity" which are passed down). The violence is nothing new, it just moved from one setting to another.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Jeeti just give it another generation or two. Our kids will fight less and so on and so on.

I've always thought that it also has to do with education. Not because educated are less inclined to be inherently violent, but the more educated you are, the more embedded you are in social and political networks that will suffer if you get into a fight.

Not necessarily true. The gangs/gang culture developing in America/Canada where Punjabi communities are densly populated are going to be a serious problem for generations to come. This is not something that is just going away, but could get worse over time.

Also, the most violent are the highly educated who wage wars and genocide. But I see your point.

 

[A Singh23]

Unfortunately, I agree with the fact that much violence stems from poor examples held by our elders. I switched the gurudwara I attended in elementary school because one man (in his later years) stabbed another with his kirpan because of gurudwara politics. This was in the midst of langar.

 

[J Hayer]

The problem only gets more dire when you realize that everyone's perspective of "pride" is so different. I've seen guys get into brawls over dirty looks or even (as someone already said) shoe stepping -- that's ridiculous and yet they've justified their actions by pride and self-respect. As someone said -- education does help since it makes you more aware of the repercussions (at times), at other times it's the sort of households kids are raised in.
But all in all, it does significantly come down to what you're looking for out of a situation, if you go into a meeting/confrontation hoping to discuss, i think it's foreseeable that a discussion would happen. I remember hearing of someone getting stabbed with a cd a few years ago at a comp, that's like a wtf moment of alcohol/testosterone/poor judgment (imo).
And yeah, when need be- you do have to stand up for what's "right," and once again, we're back at the crux of the problem lol.

 

[gursikhpreet1]

Interesting speculation Jeeti. I was actually discussing this with a couple of friends after elite 8 and we all had very similar ideas.

Alcohol does definitely increase anger and misjudgment, which could lead to fights and chaos. Also, another thing i've noticed is that a lot of punjabis feel the need to act gangster and ghetto. I myself am Punjabi, and there have been instances where I've blasted bhangra music in the car and tried to act like ludacris (random, i know)- but in my opinion, a lot of these bhangra remixes with rap and hip hop songs do play a role in causing us to feel gangster and 'the shittt'. I know some Punjabi people who love to act like thugs and blast the newest bhangra remix with lil wayne or lloyd banks. But by doing this, they start behaving like clowns and start insulting others and acting all hardcore for no reason whatsoever.

And agreed, in terms of Sikhi, we are taught about the idea of Sant-Sipahi (Saint-Soldier) But there's a difference between defending the downtrodden and getting into to fights because someone stepped on your shoe.

i don't know if that make any sense haha but i agree- this violence needs to stop. we should move forward and help preserve a culture which is so great!