Purity of Bhangra Dancing

[dodobird]

Bhangra is not a question of religion/ethnicity/look, it's just about what you like and how you dance.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. Your view may be more forceful in light of modern permutations of "bhangra", but as far as the good old (in my opinion, true) bhangra goes, it is very much a question of ethnicity, look and culture.
Don't get me wrong on this, I think it's great to consider the reach which bhangra has. But if I were to watch a dance I know what I'd want to see and what I wouldn't.

 

[PartyJatt]

My biggest pet peeve: ignorance.

Lemme give an example. This one time I attended a team mixer, not saying where-when-or even if I was dancing, and some girl sitting 3 seats next to me associated with the competition says to a girl next to her-word for word-"Ugh that's AEG's f*king gora." I also remember going to another competition, not dancing-just watching, and an onlooker behind me turns to her girlfriends and says-again word for word-"Oh look a white guy. I guess they're trying to fill their quota."

Something I've learned and preached is to get tough skin, esp to new up-and-coming non punjabi dancers. As much as shoving your Rockports up someone's behind sounds like a good idea, it isn't (you'll damage your shoes). Forget about people being accepting because the sad reality is that they won't be. But you are not obligated to prove anything to anyone (even if your BTF-whore teammates claim you do), so it shouldn't be a worry on your mind. Do you. If you like dancing, what should you care about simple bitches? Let 'em hate.

Also, don't be afraid to be yourself. You don't have to pretend to be brown to gain acceptance. Practice hard and do well-THAT's how you gain acceptance. If you are like me and facial hair just doesn't work for you, there is no obligation to stand in front of a mirror for a half an hour and draw in a dari with eyeliner. However many years later and neither Joey nor I have ever even considered it.

Lastly, HAVE FUN! Isn't this the reason you got into this whole thing to begin with? If it isn't, then I think you're in it for the wrong reasons.

Wanna read something kind of interesting? You'd think Toronto-out of all places-would be the least accepting of some white kid like me dancing. The irony is that I've gotten the best feedback there-from judges, to audience members, to other competing teams. Too bad I can't say that about American (ironic point II). Too bad I can't say the same thing about New York, America's melting pot and my hometown (ironic point III). One of the examples I listed above did happen at a New York competition, but I'll keep which one to myself.

I accept you Joe <33

 

[Saleem]

Allow me to make some choice word changes in your post.

Bhangra is not a question of religion/ethnicity/look, it's just about what you like and how you dance.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. Your view may be more forceful in light of modern permutations of "marriage", but as far as the good old (in my opinion, true) marriage goes, it is very much a question of ethnicity, look and culture.
Don't get me wrong on this, I think it's great to consider the reach which marriage has. But if I were to watch a dance I know what I'd want to see and what I wouldn't.

Bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture. If a person can appreciate those two aspects, I don't care what their religion, ethnicity, or look is.

 

[dodobird]

Allow me to make some choice word changes in your post.

Bhangra is not a question of religion/ethnicity/look, it's just about what you like and how you dance.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. Your view may be more forceful in light of modern permutations of "marriage", but as far as the good old (in my opinion, true) marriage goes, it is very much a question of ethnicity, look and culture.
Don't get me wrong on this, I think it's great to consider the reach which marriage has. But if I were to watch a dance I know what I'd want to see and what I wouldn't.

Bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture. If a person can appreciate those two aspects, I don't care what their religion, ethnicity, or look is.

I don't think the word substitution is really pertinent; bhangra and marriage are wholly dissimilar.


If bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture, then said culture should profess it. I agree with you in that an appreciation of art is universal and not tied to ethnicity. There is a difference between appreciation and appropriation; if persons of a disparate culture profess this art, then its status as a cultural norm becomes eroded. This is why I refer to it as modern "bhangra".


It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a bhangra show, there is a certain ethniticy that I would want to see sporting the pagh, with the facial hair and doing the moves. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see other ethniticies involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not bhangra.

 

[yraparla]

Allow me to make some choice word changes in your post.

Bhangra is not a question of religion/ethnicity/look, it's just about what you like and how you dance.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. Your view may be more forceful in light of modern permutations of "marriage", but as far as the good old (in my opinion, true) marriage goes, it is very much a question of ethnicity, look and culture.
Don't get me wrong on this, I think it's great to consider the reach which marriage has. But if I were to watch a dance I know what I'd want to see and what I wouldn't.

Bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture. If a person can appreciate those two aspects, I don't care what their religion, ethnicity, or look is.

I don't think the word substitution is really pertinent; bhangra and marriage are wholly dissimilar.


If bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture, then said culture should profess it. I agree with you in that an appreciation of art is universal and not tied to ethnicity. There is a difference between appreciation and appropriation; if persons of a disparate culture profess this art, then its status as a cultural norm becomes eroded. This is why I refer to it as modern "bhangra".


It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a bhangra show, there is a certain ethniticy that I would want to see sporting the pagh, with the facial hair and doing the moves. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see other ethniticies involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not bhangra.

What about people of the ethnicity (i.e. South Asian) but not specifically of the culture, but still with facial hair. Woudl they pass your litmus test of bhangra acceptability

 

[campy614]

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[kinnell]

I don't think the word substitution is really pertinent; bhangra and marriage are wholly dissimilar.

If bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture, then said culture should profess it. I agree with you in that an appreciation of art is universal and not tied to ethnicity. There is a difference between appreciation and appropriation; if persons of a disparate culture profess this art, then its status as a cultural norm becomes eroded. This is why I refer to it as modern "bhangra".

It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a bhangra show, there is a certain ethniticy that I would want to see sporting the pagh, with the facial hair and doing the moves. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see other ethniticies involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not bhangra.

It is human nature to be resistant to change. We like to cling to our preconceived notions of the world around us. While a small degree of racially discriminating beliefs are hardwired into all of us genetically, I would ask you to become more tolerant. While Saleem's analogy of comparing bhangra to marriage is a bit off, let me propose a few other examples that may reflect the opinions of other people, that we we now find silly, but are indicative of a changing perspective on the world.

EX 1: Women in Medicine, which was traditionally a male-dominated career.
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a doctor, there is a certain gender that I would want to see sporting the labcoat, with the facial hair and doing the procedures. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another gender involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not medicine.

EX 2: A black US President, which was traditionally a white man's job
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see the US president, there is a certain ethnicity that I would want to see in the oval office, with the white skin and running the country. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another ethnicity involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not the President of the United States of America.

There were (and still are) people out there who held such opinions, but the vast majority of us find them silly, ignorant and intolerant. I have no doubt that in 20 years, the younger generations will be extremely hard pressed to believe that bhangra was once performed by only one ethnicity, let alone one gender.

 

[Ashveer]

I don't think the word substitution is really pertinent; bhangra and marriage are wholly dissimilar.

If bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture, then said culture should profess it. I agree with you in that an appreciation of art is universal and not tied to ethnicity. There is a difference between appreciation and appropriation; if persons of a disparate culture profess this art, then its status as a cultural norm becomes eroded. This is why I refer to it as modern "bhangra".

It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a bhangra show, there is a certain ethniticy that I would want to see sporting the pagh, with the facial hair and doing the moves. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see other ethniticies involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not bhangra.

It is human nature to be resistant to change. We like to cling to our preconceived notions of the world around us. While a small degree of racially discriminating beliefs are hardwired into all of us genetically, I would ask you to become more tolerant. While Saleem's analogy of comparing bhangra to marriage is a bit off, let me propose a few other examples that may reflect the opinions of other people, that we we now find silly, but are indicative of a changing perspective on the world.

EX 1: Women in Medicine, which was traditionally a male-dominated career.
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a doctor, there is a certain gender that I would want to see sporting the labcoat, with the facial hair and doing the procedures. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another gender involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not medicine.

EX 2: A black US President, which was traditionally a white man's job
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see the US president, there is a certain ethnicity that I would want to see in the oval office, with the white skin and running the country. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another ethnicity involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not the President of the United States of America.

There were (and still are) people out there who held such opinions, but the vast majority of us find them silly, ignorant and intolerant. I have no doubt that in 20 years, the younger generations will be extremely hard pressed to believe that bhangra was once performed by only one ethnicity, let alone one gender.

You kind of got butt raped there dodobird, but if you understood the "true" history of your "true" bhangra, you'd realize your comments have no real basis in the first place. Its a bastardized amalgamation of regional folk dances from the Punjab region, and the "folkness" and "trueness" is about reinforcing an imaginary rather than venerating a culture.

 

[dodobird]

I will not dispute that social change is inevitable and desirable. Your examples of gender bias in medicine and race bias in politics I agree with wholeheartedly - but they have nothing to do with culture. They are anachronistic socio-political stigmas.

Culture is different. Culture resonates with a niche community and we call it culture because it has particularities we associate with said community. Social standards evolve - women enter upper echelons of corporate hierarchies; African Americans are voted into presidency. This is distinct from culture. The true test for how strong culture is is how it stands the test of time. It is a preservation of the past - this is the essence of culture - if it evolves then it no longer reflects the particularities of a niche community as originally envisaged and is thus no longer culture.

In my view Bhangra is a culture inherent to Sikhs; the liveliness a part of their blood. Most laypersons (read: nonforum goers) would tell you as much. If others attempt to showcase it this purity is lost which is why I like to see it performed by Sikhs.

Judging by forum views I understand I am in the clear minority, I have no problem with this for it is my opinion. That said I am open to be convinced otherwise - but arguments of changing social standards will not do so since culture is entirely disparate.

 

[campy614]

I don't think the word substitution is really pertinent; bhangra and marriage are wholly dissimilar.

If bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture, then said culture should profess it. I agree with you in that an appreciation of art is universal and not tied to ethnicity. There is a difference between appreciation and appropriation; if persons of a disparate culture profess this art, then its status as a cultural norm becomes eroded. This is why I refer to it as modern "bhangra".

It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a bhangra show, there is a certain ethniticy that I would want to see sporting the pagh, with the facial hair and doing the moves. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see other ethniticies involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not bhangra.

It is human nature to be resistant to change. We like to cling to our preconceived notions of the world around us. While a small degree of racially discriminating beliefs are hardwired into all of us genetically, I would ask you to become more tolerant. While Saleem's analogy of comparing bhangra to marriage is a bit off, let me propose a few other examples that may reflect the opinions of other people, that we we now find silly, but are indicative of a changing perspective on the world.

EX 1: Women in Medicine, which was traditionally a male-dominated career.
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a doctor, there is a certain gender that I would want to see sporting the labcoat, with the facial hair and doing the procedures. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another gender involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not medicine.

EX 2: A black US President, which was traditionally a white man's job
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see the US president, there is a certain ethnicity that I would want to see in the oval office, with the white skin and running the country. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another ethnicity involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not the President of the United States of America.

There were (and still are) people out there who held such opinions, but the vast majority of us find them silly, ignorant and intolerant. I have no doubt that in 20 years, the younger generations will be extremely hard pressed to believe that bhangra was once performed by only one ethnicity, let alone one gender.

You kind of got butt raped there dodobird, but if you understood the "true" history of your "true" bhangra, you'd realize your comments have no real basis in the first place. Its a bastardized amalgamation of regional folk dances from the Punjab region, and the "folkness" and "trueness" is about reinforcing an imaginary rather than venerating a culture.

Furthermore, dodobird, I don't think you fully comprehend just how much non Punjabis have done for bhangra (especially in the United States)-whether they dance or have danced on a team, threw a competition, moderate on BTF, or at very least donated to the cause in some fashion. You see, that last one is the big one. Without it, most competitions wouldn't exist. So you wouldn't get to see as many videos online as you do now. School teams, like VCU, rely on school funding which-in most cases-is headed by people who aren't of Punjabi decent. We're allowed to donate to the cause and "appreciate" it, but not partake in it because it's "inappropriate?" Now that you've hit the tip of the iceberg here, aren't your comments a little inappropriate themselves?

But, I'm glad that you've decided to hit this topic head on. I feel like it has been the elephant in the room since I started, and sadly (as show) still is.

 

[campy614]

I will not dispute that social change is inevitable and desirable. Your examples of gender bias in medicine and race bias in politics I agree with wholeheartedly - but they have nothing to do with culture. They are anachronistic socio-political stigmas.

Culture is different. Culture resonates with a niche community and we call it culture because it has particularities we associate with said community. Social standards evolve - women enter upper echelons of corporate hierarchies; African Americans are voted into presidency. This is distinct from culture. The true test for how strong culture is is how it stands the test of time. It is a preservation of the past - this is the essence of culture - if it evolves then it no longer reflects the particularities of a niche community as originally envisaged and is thus no longer culture.

In my view Bhangra is a culture inherent to Sikhs; the liveliness a part of their blood. Most laypersons (read: nonforum goers) would tell you as much. If others attempt to showcase it this purity is lost which is why I like to see it performed by Sikhs.

Judging by forum views I understand I am in the clear minority, I have no problem with this for it is my opinion. That said I am open to be convinced otherwise - but arguments of changing social standards will not do so since culture is entirely disparate.

Also, wouldn't-at very least-the presidential example given by Kinnell touch upon American culture?

You see, that's the thing-when bhangra broke outside of Punjab and came to America, Canada, and many other countries, it broke down that Punjabi barrier. Bhangra has now become a part of American culture, Canadian culture, European culture, etc. Now, you're free to debate this up and down, but the fact of the matter is that if bhangra wasn't a part of these cultures, then they wouldn't exist in all of these places. Furthermore, while it's mandatory to keep its dance-style-roots, bhangra no longer needs to be restricted to "only Jatt Sikh Punjabi men."

It's taken on a whole new persona. It's taken on a whole new life. Why not enjoy it!

 

[yraparla]

In my view Bhangra is a culture inherent to Sikhs; the liveliness a part of their blood. Most laypersons (read: nonforum goers) would tell you as much. If others attempt to showcase it this purity is lost which is why I like to see it performed by Sikhs.

This sentiment here (which we all picked up on even before you clearly described it), is exactly why we differ. You speak of ethnicity (which I can understand in context of culture), then speak of beards and Sikhs and purity. I think we greatly differ on our understanding of Sikhism and it's role with Bhangra.

In NA, we have clearly delineated Bhangra to be a cultural, Punjabi heritage (which necessarily entangles Sikhism given the area, history and context of Punjabis). But Sikhism has nothing to do with Bhangra

 

[Hand of Godard]

How does one propose that something is exclusive to Sikhs, when Sikhism is predicated on egalitarianism?

 

[HarmanToor]

lol this is taking bhangra tooooo seriously, its not a holy dance exclusively for punjabi people or sikhs.. if non punjabis are interested in the punjabi culture and want to participate and enjoy the experience.. aslong as they show the same level of respect for props, paggan and what have you then its a good thing.. making posts like these and putting those same non punjabis under this kind of spotlight.. its kinda tight.. since they probably love bhangra and the punjabi culture just as much as any other punjabi dancer.. if not more.. I see more disrespect towards the dance coming from punjabis then non punjabis.

 

[dodobird]

Briefly, because culture is inherently exclusive. Sikhism may foreground egalitarianism but this is irrelevant because my views are founded on broader culture rather than tenets of Sikhism. It is a culture _because_ it is exclusive to some community; it has identifiable features resonating with this community. If there was no element of exclusivity but rather an eclectic mix then where is the culture?

I will respond to other points after a bit of shut-eye, there are certainly some interesting points made especially regarding the contributions of non punjabis - I was totally unaware of this. I'm not trying to be antagonistic here so apologies if previous posts echoed such sentiments; again, it's just my opinion not fact by any means.

 

[faizan]

I agree with Harman Toor...

 

[campy614]

I really can't leave this topic alone.

Saleem and Kinnell have given great examples, but I feel like I need to add one more. Dodobird, when's the last time you've been to an Italian restaurant? Did you enjoy it? Was the chef Italian himself? Not just Italian-(insert country of birth/immigration here), but born-and-raised-in-Italy Italian? Was the restaurant in Italy?

So applying your beliefs to this scenario, would Italian food or the art of Italian cooking (since "cooking" is such a broad term, each style of cooking-like each dance form-takes on it's own identity and art form in and of itself) be contaminated by a French chef? How bout an Indian one? Some of the best chefs specializing in Italian food aren't even Italian themselves. One of my best friends is an ABSOLUTELY AMAZING cook (I see you Hira/Faizan) and can probably cook Italian food better than I could. Her macaroons (a cookie that can be traced to an Italian monastery) are to DIE for.

I'm not going to sit here and debate the pros and cons of cultural diversity and globalization, even though that's kind of what is happening here. But when it comes to art in ALL of its forms, there should be no restrictions on who gets to partake in its beauty, and who only gets to just watch.

 

[Saleem]

But he says not only is it proper for dancers to be punjabi, but sikh as well. So really, the chef has to be born and raised in Italy, but also better be Roman Catholic. Not because that's the majority in Italy, but what he perceive to be the right religion in Italy.

 

[kinnell]

Dodobird, here is another error in your logic.

You stated that "If I go to see a bhangra show, there is a certain ethniticy that I would want to see sporting the pagh, with the facial hair and doing the moves."

You actually misspoke. What you meant to say is that there is a certain skin color or a certain appearance you want to see perform bhangra.

Why do I say this? Because by definition, ethnicity (Punjabi) and religion (Sikhi) are not attributes that are seen. A non-Indian person could have been born in a pindh in Punjab, grew up as a Sikh and culturally associate themselves as Punjabi. Yet, when they dance on stage, you would unfortunately not see that at all. You would assume them to be non-Punjabi because they don't look like what ignorantly think all Sikhi Punjabis look like.

The truth is that your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with culture/religion or what it means to perform to a dance originally of another culture. To you, it's unfortunately all about what the majority of that culture/religion looks like physically and whether the dancer lives up to that preconceived biased image and I feel that that is racism at its basic level.

 

[Mojo]

Bhangra is not a question of religion/ethnicity/look, it's just about what you like and how you dance.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with you. Your view may be more forceful in light of modern permutations of "bhangra", but as far as the good old (in my opinion, true) bhangra goes, it is very much a question of ethnicity, look and culture.
Don't get me wrong on this, I think it's great to consider the reach which bhangra has. But if I were to watch a dance I know what I'd want to see and what I wouldn't.

So if white people can't like/do bhangra, Indians shouldn't like hip-hop, jeans, tshirts, or even speak English, right? All of those are "culture" too. I highly doubt you walk around wearing a lungi all the time and speaking pure Punjabi, so I suggest you drop the whole "purity of culture" argument. No culture is pure. Everyone has influenced everyone else in some way. Western culture has been influenced by Indian culture and vice versa.


Someone's quality as a bhangra dancer is seen on the stage, not in the mirror. Like Kinnell said before me, this argument isn't even actually about ethnicity, it's about what you think a certain ethnicity should look like. It's just sad to see this kind of ignorance.