Purity of Bhangra Dancing

[HarmanSingh]

Your sentiment is ludicrous dodobird.

Bhangra has zero relation to Sikhi.

Bhangra has a cultural connection to Punjab and Punjabis but not to Sikhs. Note that Punjab also includes our Pakistani Punjabis and Hindu Punjabis. The contributions of Muslims and Hindus to bhangra have been huge. You may want to really study where traditional folk Punjabi dances originated from: hint, it is not all from Sikhs. You may also want to study contributions of people like Waris Shah to the folk boliyan we all love. There is a long and storied history of Muslims and Hindus with folk dances from Punjab, Sikhs are just one part of the puzzle.

Also, even if people who are not Punjabi at all want to dance, what does it matter to you? I love hip hop, I’m not black. Historically, Hip Hop is an African American art form. But people of all races and ethnicities and religions listen to the music, make the music, dance to the music. Same concept here- you cannot and should not restrict bhangra to just Punjabis or just Sikhs.

There are bigger issues in the Punjabi community than white people dancing to Punjabi music. The beauty of music is not about restricting it to one group. Let people listen to what they love, dance to what they love.

To the non-Punjabi dancers: I think this guy is a small minority. Most Punjabis lose their minds when they see a white person speaking Punjabi or doing folk dances. After all, Indians worship white skin and white culture, we love when whites accept us.

 

[faizan]

Can someone name one religious folk dance incorporated in present day "bhangra?" I thought so...

 

[Pooja]

Uh-oh...is Summy back?

 

[campy614]

But he says not only is it proper for dancers to be punjabi, but sikh as well. So really, the chef has to be born and raised in Italy, but also better be Roman Catholic. Not because that's the majority in Italy, but what he perceive to be the right religion in Italy.

It's funny how you're attacking this from a non-Sikh Punjabi bhangra dancer perspective, and I'm attacking this from an Italian-American bhangra dancer perspective. Far be it for the non-practicing Roman Catholic to preach about religion, so I'm debating this from the ethnicity perspective. I'll leave the religious up to you.

 

[campy614]

Your sentiment is ludicrous dodobird.

Bhangra has zero relation to Sikhi.

Bhangra has a cultural connection to Punjab and Punjabis but not to Sikhs. Note that Punjab also includes our Pakistani Punjabis and Hindu Punjabis. The contributions of Muslims and Hindus to bhangra have been huge. You may want to really study where traditional folk Punjabi dances originated from: hint, it is not all from Sikhs. You may also want to study contributions of people like Waris Shah to the folk boliyan we all love. There is a long and storied history of Muslims and Hindus with folk dances from Punjab, Sikhs are just one part of the puzzle.

Also, even if people who are not Punjabi at all want to dance, what does it matter to you? I love hip hop, I'm not black. Historically, Hip Hop is an African American art form. But people of all races and ethnicities and religions listen to the music, make the music, dance to the music. Same concept here- you cannot and should not restrict bhangra to just Punjabis or just Sikhs.

There are bigger issues in the Punjabi community than white people dancing to Punjabi music. The beauty of music is not about restricting it to one group. Let people listen to what they love, dance to what they love.

To the non-Punjabi dancers: I think this guy is a small minority. Most Punjabis lose their minds when they see a white person speaking Punjabi or doing folk dances. After all, Indians worship white skin and white culture, we love when whites accept us.

Wow, we actually agree on something.

Also, if memory serves me correctly, your sentiments about this issue have changed over the years.

Much respect.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Your sentiment is ludicrous dodobird.

Bhangra has zero relation to Sikhi.

Bhangra has a cultural connection to Punjab and Punjabis but not to Sikhs. Note that Punjab also includes our Pakistani Punjabis and Hindu Punjabis. The contributions of Muslims and Hindus to bhangra have been huge. You may want to really study where traditional folk Punjabi dances originated from: hint, it is not all from Sikhs. You may also want to study contributions of people like Waris Shah to the folk boliyan we all love. There is a long and storied history of Muslims and Hindus with folk dances from Punjab, Sikhs are just one part of the puzzle.

Also, even if people who are not Punjabi at all want to dance, what does it matter to you? I love hip hop, I'm not black. Historically, Hip Hop is an African American art form. But people of all races and ethnicities and religions listen to the music, make the music, dance to the music. Same concept here- you cannot and should not restrict bhangra to just Punjabis or just Sikhs.

There are bigger issues in the Punjabi community than white people dancing to Punjabi music. The beauty of music is not about restricting it to one group. Let people listen to what they love, dance to what they love.

To the non-Punjabi dancers: I think this guy is a small minority. Most Punjabis lose their minds when they see a white person speaking Punjabi or doing folk dances. After all, Indians worship white skin and white culture, we love when whites accept us.

Wow, we actually agree on something.

Also, if memory serves me correctly, your sentiments about this issue have changed over the years.

Much respect.

No, they haven't changed.

Some people want to portray anyone who thinks a judge should have a basic understanding of Punjabi to be an out of control bigot who hates anyone who isn't Punjabi but that was never the case.

 

[Ashveer]

I will not dispute that social change is inevitable and desirable. Your examples of gender bias in medicine and race bias in politics I agree with wholeheartedly - but they have nothing to do with culture. They are anachronistic socio-political stigmas.

Culture is different. Culture resonates with a niche community and we call it culture because it has particularities we associate with said community. Social standards evolve - women enter upper echelons of corporate hierarchies; African Americans are voted into presidency. This is distinct from culture. The true test for how strong culture is is how it stands the test of time. It is a preservation of the past - this is the essence of culture - if it evolves then it no longer reflects the particularities of a niche community as originally envisaged and is thus no longer culture.

In my view Bhangra is a culture inherent to Sikhs; the liveliness a part of their blood. Most laypersons (read: nonforum goers) would tell you as much. If others attempt to showcase it this purity is lost which is why I like to see it performed by Sikhs.

Judging by forum views I understand I am in the clear minority, I have no problem with this for it is my opinion. That said I am open to be convinced otherwise - but arguments of changing social standards will not do so since culture is entirely disparate.

I hope you understand that you're using a lay definition of culture that doesn't do the concept justice. Laypersons tell you that bhangra is inherent to Sikhs. Laypersons will also tell you that Sikhs are Hindus. Laypersons also don't know that it was mostly non-Jatt non-Sikhs who helped to consolidate bhangra in the post-partition era, and all of the grand ustaads of the old generation were low caste and not Sikh (see the recent passing of Gharib Daas). Do you think that when Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Jains and Christians all lived in the same pinds together 70 years ago, that it was only Sikhs that did bhangra while everyone else just watched? To claim that one religion in such a context had a strong and distinct "culture" is a bit out of touch with reality. Again, you talk about lay understandings...you don't seem to know the history of the cultural forms that you're attempting to argue about.

What is the difference between a social standard and culture, by the way? You talk about the "strength" of culture...its easier to point out the bad...so is "Sikh culture" weak because the purdah system is out of fashion now (wait, is that culture or social standard?). Is "Sikh culture" "strong" because the caste system is still relevant (or is that a social thing?). Is "Sikh culture" dying since most Jatts don't farm anymore and are doing the exact opposite of what the stereotypically should be doing, which is going to school? Your logic is flawed and reeks of ethnocentrism.

 

[Saab]

I don't think the word substitution is really pertinent; bhangra and marriage are wholly dissimilar.

If bhangra is an art form that relates to a culture, then said culture should profess it. I agree with you in that an appreciation of art is universal and not tied to ethnicity. There is a difference between appreciation and appropriation; if persons of a disparate culture profess this art, then its status as a cultural norm becomes eroded. This is why I refer to it as modern "bhangra".

It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a bhangra show, there is a certain ethniticy that I would want to see sporting the pagh, with the facial hair and doing the moves. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see other ethniticies involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not bhangra.

It is human nature to be resistant to change. We like to cling to our preconceived notions of the world around us. While a small degree of racially discriminating beliefs are hardwired into all of us genetically, I would ask you to become more tolerant. While Saleem's analogy of comparing bhangra to marriage is a bit off, let me propose a few other examples that may reflect the opinions of other people, that we we now find silly, but are indicative of a changing perspective on the world.

EX 1: Women in Medicine, which was traditionally a male-dominated career.
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see a doctor, there is a certain gender that I would want to see sporting the labcoat, with the facial hair and doing the procedures. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another gender involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not medicine.

EX 2: A black US President, which was traditionally a white man's job
It boils down to opinion. If I go to see the US president, there is a certain ethnicity that I would want to see in the oval office, with the white skin and running the country. I don't expect everyone to be able to understand this. If I were to see another ethnicity involved - hey, that's great and good fun, but in my opinion that's just not the President of the United States of America.

There were (and still are) people out there who held such opinions, but the vast majority of us find them silly, ignorant and intolerant. I have no doubt that in 20 years, the younger generations will be extremely hard pressed to believe that bhangra was once performed by only one ethnicity, let alone one gender.

You kind of got butt raped there dodobird, but if you understood the "true" history of your "true" bhangra, you'd realize your comments have no real basis in the first place. Its a bastardized amalgamation of regional folk dances from the Punjab region, and the "folkness" and "trueness" is about reinforcing an imaginary rather than venerating a culture.

I was typing bastardized amalgamation in when I saw this post. +1

Also, Summy was more of a "Bhangra is ruining our culture through what it promotes" rather than making statements saying that "Bhangra should be a controlled environment that is predominantly one group of people based on religion"

Hey dodobird, what would be your view on edpreet hosono?

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

Can someone name one religious folk dance incorporated in present day "bhangra?" I thought so...

maybe some jhummar. gibb had a book chapter he translated that it was done at the URS (death anniversary) of Sufi saints at their shrines. probably bears little relation to modern pokhar singh style jhummar. a dance called dhamaal is performed at sufi shrines even today, especially at baba shah jamal's mazhar in icchra, lahore but again probably nothing like the modern bhangra move today.

oh look some bhangra moves might have sufi muslim roots!? should we take these moves out of bhangra to make it more pure sikh?!?

 

[faizan]

Comton, Jhummar is an all purpose dance. If it is performed at sufi shrines, that is incidental. It is not a sufi dance...it is peformed at weddings, festivals and many dif. types of celebrations...


additionally, the dhamaal you speak of has nothing to do with the present-day dhamaal...if u have ever seen dhamaal performed in west punjabi sufi events, you will notice that there is no resemblance of beat or dance steps to bhangra dhamaal...dhamaal bhangra and dhamaal sufi are unrelated...

 

[Mojo]

I will not dispute that social change is inevitable and desirable. Your examples of gender bias in medicine and race bias in politics I agree with wholeheartedly - but they have nothing to do with culture. They are anachronistic socio-political stigmas.

Culture is different. Culture resonates with a niche community and we call it culture because it has particularities we associate with said community. Social standards evolve - women enter upper echelons of corporate hierarchies; African Americans are voted into presidency. This is distinct from culture. The true test for how strong culture is is how it stands the test of time. It is a preservation of the past - this is the essence of culture - if it evolves then it no longer reflects the particularities of a niche community as originally envisaged and is thus no longer culture.

In my view Bhangra is a culture inherent to Sikhs; the liveliness a part of their blood. Most laypersons (read: nonforum goers) would tell you as much. If others attempt to showcase it this purity is lost which is why I like to see it performed by Sikhs.

Judging by forum views I understand I am in the clear minority, I have no problem with this for it is my opinion. That said I am open to be convinced otherwise - but arguments of changing social standards will not do so since culture is entirely disparate.

I hope you understand that you're using a lay definition of culture that doesn't do the concept justice. Laypersons tell you that bhangra is inherent to Sikhs. Laypersons will also tell you that Sikhs are Hindus. Laypersons also don't know that it was mostly non-Jatt non-Sikhs who helped to consolidate bhangra in the post-partition era, and all of the grand ustaads of the old generation were low caste and not Sikh (see the recent passing of Gharib Daas). Do you think that when Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Jains and Christians all lived in the same pinds together 70 years ago, that it was only Sikhs that did bhangra while everyone else just watched? To claim that one religion in such a context had a strong and distinct "culture" is a bit out of touch with reality. Again, you talk about lay understandings...you don't seem to know the history of the cultural forms that you're attempting to argue about.

What is the difference between a social standard and culture, by the way? You talk about the "strength" of culture...its easier to point out the bad...so is "Sikh culture" weak because the purdah system is out of fashion now (wait, is that culture or social standard?). Is "Sikh culture" "strong" because the caste system is still relevant (or is that a social thing?). Is "Sikh culture" dying since most Jatts don't farm anymore and are doing the exact opposite of what the stereotypically should be doing, which is going to school? Your logic is flawed and reeks of ethnocentrism.

+1

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

Comton, Jhummar is an all purpose dance. If it is performed at sufi shrines, that is incidental. It is not a sufi dance...it is peformed at weddings, festivals and many dif. types of celebrations...


additionally, the dhamaal you speak of has nothing to do with the present-day dhamaal...if u have ever seen dhamaal performed in west punjabi sufi events, you will notice that there is no resemblance of beat or dance steps to bhangra dhamaal...dhamaal bhangra and dhamaal sufi are unrelated...

i know, i was being sarcastic. lol damn internets not letting me express tones.

 

[Gurbir23]

Im going to make one quick point about the relation of sikhi to bhangra.

Your point of bhangra being related to sikhi has no substance behind it. Is it because that religion may be the dominant religion in the region where bhangra originated? (and even thats false because remember, punjab included pakistan up until partition). With minimal knowledge of sikh values and beliefs, you would understand just something as simple as the boliyan that are sung along with the dance itself are contradictory to what sikhism preaches. Most boliyan are centered around a man lusting for a women. Lust is one of the five evils that sikhism promotes followers to prevent from partaking in ( kaam krodh lobh moh ahankar). In addition, no matter how much we deny it, bhangra itself promotes a "jatt" culture. Once again, this classification of people into a class is against sikh beliefs. Yeah, bhangra originated as a dance to celebrate the harvest but what you're arguing is bhangra in the present day. You say you would rather see punjabi sikh individuals dancing on stage performing this dance. How many of those dancers on that stage are actually legitemate "sikhs". I could bet my ass that the majority of those "sikh" dancers probably havn't done a line of pathe (prayer) in years and most likely, have not the slightest idea about the values/beliefs of sikhism. My point is: relating sikhism, let alone any religion, to bhangra is a joke.

I know i've missed a couple of thing but i wanted to keep it brief.

 

[Govind]

Can someone name one religious folk dance incorporated in present day "bhangra?" I thought so...

maybe some jhummar. gibb had a book chapter he translated that it was done at the URS (death anniversary) of Sufi saints at their shrines. probably bears little relation to modern pokhar singh style jhummar. a dance called dhamaal is performed at sufi shrines even today, especially at baba shah jamal's mazhar in icchra, lahore but again probably nothing like the modern bhangra move today.

oh look some bhangra moves might have sufi muslim roots!? should we take these moves out of bhangra to make it more pure sikh?!?

for sure Pokhar Singh reinvented jhummar in many ways...Not sure if he's still around, but I know he had an all-jhummar squad at some point.

 

[BDR Official Fan]

So when do we start dancing?

 

[Gurbir23]

So when do we start dancing?

are you a punjabi jatt sikh ? If not, you're not allowed to dance

 

[GSingh]

So when do we start dancing?

are you a punjabi jatt sikh ? If not, you're not allowed to dance

And since we don't have a khet or crop to harvest, it defeats the purpose of dancing.

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

Can someone name one religious folk dance incorporated in present day "bhangra?" I thought so...

maybe some jhummar. gibb had a book chapter he translated that it was done at the URS (death anniversary) of Sufi saints at their shrines. probably bears little relation to modern pokhar singh style jhummar. a dance called dhamaal is performed at sufi shrines even today, especially at baba shah jamal's mazhar in icchra, lahore but again probably nothing like the modern bhangra move today.

oh look some bhangra moves might have sufi muslim roots!? should we take these moves out of bhangra to make it more pure sikh?!?

for sure Pokhar Singh reinvented jhummar in many ways...Not sure if he's still around, but I know he had an all-jhummar squad at some point.

i think he passed away in 2004 or 2005. according to my cousins he trained lots of people who are at NZCC in patiala right now teaching. i think this is one of the troupes he trained
JHOOMER REAL ONE

 

[Govind]

yes!!! that's definitely his style of jhummar! random piece of trivia but pammi bai told me that he's also one of the guys who first put in the "shhh shhh" sound into jhummar LOL

 

[dodobird]

Dodobird vs the world, let's do this.


A lot of hypersensitive folk have extended my original views to an illogical end. I never said that non-Indians should never partake in bhangra nor did I say that only six foot plus Jatt Sikh men should frame the dance. Read my original post again; I am making a distinction between traditional and a modern form of bhangra - something I'm sure has been debated fiercely on these boards in the past.


I am willing to concede that in its most base form it was not solely under the ambit of Sikhs; someone put the matter quite elegantly when they stated it covered the Punjab region which necessarily entangled Sikhs - although my caveat is that I would say it has come to be closely regarded as associated with them.


My conception of traditional bhangra is an exhibition of culture. It is a dance which showcases culture, illustrating the livelihood of the folk music and the agrarian origins of Punjabis. The most pure exhibition as such will be displayed, in my opinion, when members of said culture are the ones who are dancing. Sure non-Punjabis can take part, sure they can don the costumes, sure they can do the moves - I have no problem with this whatsoever. I am entirely appreciative of the reach which bhangra has; this is something to be celebrated and I want to stamp out the entirely misguided views that I am ethnocentric or insular.


The point which I made starting from my very first post which has been utterly lost in all the responses made towards me is that when this occurs, it no longer reflects traditional bhangra. By all means it is a modern form or variant of bhangra - but it is not traditional - and as such, it is not a showcase of the culture exhibited by a niche community.


I know what almost everyone is going to say in response - bhangra is not static; bhangra evolves and a large part of its popularity in countries around the world today is tied to this evolution. I will not dispute this. However, evolution of culture is tantamount to erosion - Kinnell stated earlier his view that 20 years on from now youngsters will find it difficult to fathom that bhangra stemmed from a particular demographic root in India.


Why is this perceived of as a good thing? I repeat what I have stated earlier: the culture of a community is a relic of its past. It is a preservation of its past. If many years from now the extant generation do not realise that bhangra was once the showcase of Punjab, this is something to be lamented.


I stated earlier that antagonism is not my aim and that I have approached this whole debate with an open mind. Yet I know that someone is going to take this sentence and state I clearly do not have an open mind because I never want to see non-Punjabis doing bhangra. Can I pre-emptively and categorically deny this and just reinforce what I have said: Non-Punjabis can dance their soles bare - I will never and would never deny this. But, this is not traditional bhangra, it is a modern permutation, and as such and as time goes by, it less and less reflects Punjabi culture. Go ahead and jump on this pro-cultural-evolutionists, but see my previous paragraph.


I have not been personal in any of my remarks so please keep the ad hominem comments out of the equation.