Questions for Sikhs

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

I agree with what Abhi said. Theres a great divide between what the Guru's said and what people choose to do. Its all about dedication and the truth is people always have flaws. Thats why when religion starts the initial followers are devoted and overtime human error causes those practices to change alot. In Sikhi there are no castes. People still talk about Jatts, Ramgarhias and all but they are not supposed to think of that as a caste. I believe its ok to be proud of your roots and from what area in Punjab ur from but by no means does being Jatt or any other make anyone any better than anyone else. It is simply human nature to try and find divides and separate eachother. Thats why Guru Nanak said for one to be Godly and become closer to God they must drop all of these divides and realize that although we all have different backgrounds we are in fact all the same and equal. All religions have a equal rights to practice religion and live peacefully and thus they shuld love eachother and find ways to benefit from eachother. If you read about the Punjab Empire under Maharaj Ranjit Singh everyone was allowed to practice their own religion. I think most of his congress was Muslim and he allowed them to practice peacefully. The thing about Punjab is that its not for only Sikhs or only for Hindus or only for Muslims. Punjab is supposed to be for all of us thas why Im sad Punjab got divided in such a violent manner.

More on the reason why people don't learn as much about Sikhi as people in the past all depends on family. My grandfather has written many books on Sikh theology and I went to Gurmat camps and all so i learned alot. It all depends on parents and where they decided to live in the US also. I do understand it is harder for families that are the only Sikh family in a town to teach alot while still becoming part of society, but in a sense that is kinda sad . Everything Sikhi teaches should allow them to become good members of any society without any problems. Also, on a side note, some people believe that Operation Blue Star may have been a huge cause of that happening. Even in India people don't kno much about Sikhi and alot are scared to teach their kids. Basically, there are alot of factors

 

[Mukandpuria]

Also, on a side note, some people believe that Operation Blue Star may have been a huge cause of that happening. Even in India people don't kno much about Sikhi and a lot are scared to teach their kids. Basically, there are alot of factors

If thats true thats really sad that a nation can do that to a religion...I have never through of it that way, but it makes sense......to have someone not teach their kids about their religion/identity, becuase they are scared they might not come home one day, thats depressing. I don't understand how a country can look passed this

 

[Vick]

Damn Naveen, you know your stuff buddy...

 

[Ashqe]

Another question though, Sikhs aren't supposed to cut their hair but why do men then keep their hair in a pagg?

 

[Summy]

HOW COULD I MISS OUT ON THIS DISCUSSION ?!? hahah.. Good feedback, but man there, in my opinion, have been some faulty information given out, IN MY OPINION:


"Trimming Beard": Strictly forbidden in Sikhi. Now there is two was to think of this. Firstly, if you are a gursikh, meaning if you have taken Amrit, you have given yourself to Waheguru. You keep for 5 kakkars strict and that includes keeping kesh. If you are a Sajjandhari, meaning an "aspiring" gursikh, that you should be adhering to sikhi in every way possible. Some Sajjandhari's wear only the kirpan but refuse to wear the kara because they might eat meat (we will discuss this below). Some dont keep kesh, but vow to Waheguru that one day they will fully take amrit and adhere to these rules. So one must realize that in Sikhism, a sikh is one who subscirbes to the Khalsa, and to be part of the Khalsa, amrit is necessary. Therefore, to be known as a sikh, you must have taken amrit. Therefore, all sikhs must keep Kesh.


Islam/Hinduism and Sikhism: Now, I've always been a fan of sikhi's ability to transcend basic knowledge. Sikhi purpose according to Guru Gobind Singh Jee, was to be the protectors and unifiers of the world that has been split. Therefore, I am interested in how my religion is similar to other religions. The basic foundations of sikhi show that it is not well matched with Islam. So the influence of Islam in Sikhi comes from very vague and inspirational shabads that speak about god but dont evaluate much further than that. Sikhism is a dharmic religion. It steams from South Asia. Other dharmic religions include Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism. For anyone remotely interested in other religions, all these religions are very similar as far as the foundations. We all believe in the Atma, reincarnation, not to convert, meditation, I can go on forever.... Islam is distinctly different. Islam is a testament religion which steams from the old testament. Those religions include Islam, Christanity and Judaism. They dont believe in the soul, and therefore typically permitt meat eating etc... So at the foundation of our religions, we differ quite greatly, and islam's influence in sikhi is inspirational but steams from cultural roots more than religious ties...

Hinduism, like other dharmic religions are similar to sikhi but still different. Santan Dharm the form of worship that I believe is best suited for the age of kalyug (the last yug) in practice is different than sikhi. Krishen Jee said that Santan Dharm (meaning praying to murti's etc) is something that in Kalyug will be benficial because of the lack of ability to connect deeper on a spiritual manner... Tell me if you need more information on the Yug's--- yug's are described in the Shri Guru Granth Maharaj Sahib Jee, that 4 yug's and the last one (we are in) people misconstrue the meaning of religion, separation, the yug of armageddon... Vedic Hinduism, less practiced is more similar to sikhi. It preaches worship mentally, and has similar notions to sikhi, like the reduced importance of rituals and murti praying...

Also, the foundations are the same. Each Guru was well versed in the Gita's and their contributions are evident. My personal guru who I look to for Wisdom in India, said to read the Ved's to understand what our guru's had a basis in. It is not something as a sikh I follow, not would I ever, but it is good to understand where our Guru's mind's laid at parts of their life. Guru Gobind Singh Jee wrote the Dasam Granth which talked about hindu god's and he understood the similarities.

Now, as a gursikh, im not always hailed when I talk like this because those who are ignorant want to sikhi to be exclusive and ignore some of our history. I dont thik sikhs are developed hindus, no thats offensive but the best way I can put it is this...

If you have a tree, the dharmic tree, there are many branches. Those branches include Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism... On those branches they have other smaller branches (in sikhi you have things like nirankar's, nihang's) and other offshoots. NO branch is bigger than another branch, these four are equal. They all lead to the trunk of the tree, the base, which is Dharma, so which ever way you follow is up to you... Us sikhs, like other dharmics dont believe in conversion for many reasons. Because we believe that each dharam has validity and we are not to judge. They all lead to the same path, to the same destination, it is just for me Sikhi is the quickest, and the best in my opinion, but I wont judge anothers. --------

Meat Eating: I might go crazy. I was really offended when somebody said that some Guru's were meat eaters. Thats ridicolously hateful, and some people in India would literally kill someone if they heard that. There is no proof of that, and actually its the other way around. There is more proof that all Guru's did not eat meat, the only contridicting opinion is this...

They say that Guru Gobind Singh Jee and his father, Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee, were "hunters". They hunted, but not for personal gain, in the sense of eating and enjoying the taste, they were above killing an innocent soul... it was to instill a sense of pride and self confidence in the downtrodden people of India who for centuries had grovelled to any invader who happen to come their way, and in the process to settle long overdue 'accounts', to release the souls of the poor unfortunate animals who may have wronged in the past, to grant them Mukti.. .it was so Guru's could grant the animals mukti...


Some people say that there is no "diet" restriction in sikhi... But they never want to evaluate the evidence and want to take literal words to try to forget the part of our dharam that says basically "connect the dots"... Why dont we drink? Why dont we smoke? It comes from the thought that sikhis should live a PURE life. PURITY comes from no intoxication... IF AS A SIKH, you believe in an atma... IF YOU BELIVE IN A SOUL, and EVERY LIVING THING HAS A SOUL (yeah some people say plants and rocks according to sikhi have a soul, but they dont understand personification and metaphors) and you believe that THE ONLY PERSON TO GRANT MUKTI TO A SOUL IS WAHEGURU JEE, then killing and eating an animal is against sikhi...

Meat eaters in sikhi claim that there is no diet restriction because it is not explicitly mentioned in sikhi... Well, neither is murder. But if we justify meat eating with the same reason why justify murder, then murder is accepted in sikhi as well right?

No sikh see's a difference in a human and an animal. We dont believe in "body's". Thats testament talk. We believe in the soul, there when you committ murder or eat a dead soul, then it is no different than eating a human being, a baby, your family...


We are taught in sikhi not to judge, so I dont judge those who eat meat. But when those people go beyond their rights to say it is JUSTIFIED in sikhi, thats where i have a problem. You eat what you want to eat, do it for your taste buds, but dont ever say our guru's who died protecting souls, and preached the existence of souls, would get up murder one and eat it for "protein".

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Interested to hear everybody's take, great discussions...

 

[Vick]

We are taught in sikhi not to judge, so I dont judge those who eat meat. But when those people go beyond their rights to say it is JUSTIFIED in sikhi, thats where i have a problem. You eat what you want to eat, do it for your taste buds, but dont ever say our guru's who died protecting souls, and preached the existence of souls, would get up murder one and eat it for "protein".

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Interested to hear everybody's take, great discussions...

Taught to not judge eh? I guess someone isn't paying attention...

 

[Don]

They say that Guru Gobind Singh Jee and his father, Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee, were "hunters".

Thanks for clarifying this Summy. I admit I was the one who said they were hunters, but your right I never really heard the rest of the story regarding whether they ate the meat or not. My dad doesn't eat meat for the same reasons you stated, he says those that do eat meat try to find some type of "loophole", if you will, to justify why they can eat meat.

 

[Mukandpuria]

Summy do you write on Wikipedia? If not you should

 

[Vick]

I've probably learned more in the 20 mins reading this thread about Sikhism than I have in my lifetime...no joke...

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

The thing about SIkhi is that its supposed to be a completely rational way of life. U don't jus do rituals and random stuff without a reason. You are supposed to be humble and live a rational life and work hard. In Sikhi at times it is even seen more respectable to live selfless and contribute to society and sacrifice to help others at all times than to confine urself and jus pray all the time (although Nam Simran is supposed to be done constantly to remember all u do is for God and the well being of humanity). Summy I ask you where in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib does it say meat is strictly forbidden. I have read quotes such as the one Sher showed that arguments over whether or not to eat meat are useless and well as quotes stating simply Sikhs shuld avoid Halal (Zabiha) meat. Don't get me wrong im not tryna attack u or anythin I was jus wondering...

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

also about Dasam Granth. It was not made Guru by Guru Gobind Singh Ji so theres no real purpose in using it (alot of people argue about stuff in it that may or may not be controversial. Some ppl argue that when Gurdwaras in India were taken over some texts were altered whereas others say some of the sayings are controversial but meant to pump the soldiers up who were going into battle against armies many times their size. I am not truly positive so I don't think I have any right to speak too much on the subject of Dasam Granth) all a Sikh really needs is Sri Guru Granth Sahib for guidance. the rest is being a humble and good person and looking out for everyone no matter who they are or what they look like.

 

[Sher]

Ok, im gonna break it down in the most simple way I can think of it. For people that think eating meat is wrong, why do you think it is wrong? Most people would without a doubt say its wrong because you are killing something. If this is the case, why does it really matter if the Gurus at the meat after they hunted? By hunting they are killing the animal, not by eating it. When you eat an animal it is usually dead. In my opinion, it is worse to kill animal for no reason than to kill it for food. Next, about granting the animals mukti... if we are now in the age of Kalyug (as many people would say), wouldn't more animals need to be granted mukti? I really don't know much about kalyug and mukti etc so I might be wrong about this point. My next and most simple point is that dead animals are in Gurdwaras and nobody has objected to that. im not talking about food, but most tablas are made from goat skin. I know this seems silly on the base, but is it really more wrong to kill an animal for meat than to kill it to make an instrument? If your going to argue that eating meat is wrong because animals are dying, then you should really look at all the other animal products in your life.

Im sorry if I confused anyone, but I have found that certain aspects of Sikhism (or any other religion) are really up for interpretation. From what I have researched eating meat is not against Sikhi, but I would never try to make someone eat meat. It is all up to the individual.

 

[Vick]

Tabla's are made from goat skin? never knew that!

 

[yraparla]

I've resigned myself to the fact that I can't be 100% vegetarian. You just don't know where gelatin is thrown in, or what the french fries have been fried in.

I just do the best I can and balance. Could I stop eating mickey D fries and just remove that possibility? yes. But it's difficult (in the sense of cutting out EVERYTHING that MAY have animal products) and my balance is to avoid everything I know. So no burgers, but also no jello. I'll take the risk with the fries.

the idea is to try to be better, not to start out a saint. even if you could make the argument that Sikh's don't necessarily have to be vegetarian (and it's a thin argument to me, sorry sher) you can't argue that the foundations of Sikhism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Hinduism all contain vegetarianism and it should be something to strive towards.

 

[Summy]

Hey Naveen,

Yeah dont worry brother, I didnt take your post as attacking me or anything. Just regarding your statement about where meat is forbidden. There is nowhere in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji that forbids murder. There is nowhere in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji that specifcally states anything about rape, illicit sex etc... Are those things accepted? No. Guru Granth Sahib Ji is not a text that says, Do this and do that, and dont do this and dont do that. It is a story, a complation of wisdom, not a instruction booklet to sikhi. Now I understand your concern because a lot of western sikhs say this, but look to all the direction. Connect the dots in our religion. Why is meat not allowed not only in Harimandir Sahib Ji, but in a 50 mile radius? If your waiting for the proof of Guru Ji to say Do this and dont do this, then there are A LOT of things that could be justified.

The works of the Dasam Granth is 100% the works of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. How anyone could claim otherwise is beyond me. Not saying you Naveen, but you probably dont know the history behind it. The claims were shot down not once but 4 separate times by the Akal Takht. ON four separate occasions the Akal Takht has called historians, decendents, and even direct followers of Guru Gobind Singh Jee to evaluate everything from what he said, to his writing. The latest report was done in 2000 something using modern day technology to show that his writing in the Dasam Granth is the exact same as the writing contributed to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Here is the first report in 1897.
http://www.gobindsadan.org/dasamgranth/library/1897_report/1897report.pdf


Also for those who deny the Dasam Granth deny Amrit. Amrit Sanchar is written and denied step by step, down to the hyms in the Dasam Granth. Nothing of Amrit is in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Khande di Phul is comprised in the Dasam Granth, so everyone who has taken amrit from guru jee's words is subscribing to the Dasam Granth.

In the Rehat Maryada we are supposed to naam jaap.... again defined in the Dasam Granth under Jaap Sahib. As someone who has taken amrit and sits in amrit's a lot, we should know that Jaap Sahib, Tawprasad Sawayeya and Kabiobach Bainty Chawpaye, are supposed to be recited by every baptised sikh. Also all three are recited during Amrit Sanchar.

The first person EVER in the history of sikhi to raise concerns about the Dasam Granth was Max Maculiffe. The people who question it also may not believe in Amrit, and also have concerns about Guru Gobind Singh Jee as possibly being influenced. Its all trash, and it steams from people not liking what GUru Giobind Singh Jee did as talking about hindu gods.

Its all ahankar, and the akal takht has laid the issue to rest, and people should stop letting their egos get in way of enlightenment. Max Maculiffe hated the unity of punjab, and he the translator tried to create separation. He was the deputy minister of the BRITISH RAJ, the same people who urinated on our Guru Granth Sahib JI infront of sikh prisoners, so his concerns have to be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[Don]

Ok, im gonna break it down in the most simple way I can think of it. For people that think eating meat is wrong, why do you think it is wrong? Most people would without a doubt say its wrong because you are killing something. If this is the case, why does it really matter if the Gurus at the meat after they hunted? By hunting they are killing the animal, not by eating it. When you eat an animal it is usually dead. In my opinion, it is worse to kill animal for no reason than to kill it for food. Next, about granting the animals mukti... if we are now in the age of Kalyug (as many people would say), wouldn't more animals need to be granted mukti? I really don't know much about kalyug and mukti etc so I might be wrong about this point. My next and most simple point is that dead animals are in Gurdwaras and nobody has objected to that. im not talking about food, but most tablas are made from goat skin. I know this seems silly on the base, but is it really more wrong to kill an animal for meat than to kill it to make an instrument? If your going to argue that eating meat is wrong because animals are dying, then you should really look at all the other animal products in your life.

Im sorry if I confused anyone, but I have found that certain aspects of Sikhism (or any other religion) are really up for interpretation. From what I have researched eating meat is not against Sikhi, but I would never try to make someone eat meat. It is all up to the individual.

You bring up a lot of good points Sher. Jasmeet and I had a very good discussion about this one day and he spoke about the same arguments that Sher brought up, citing some good examples from sikh history. I can't remember them off the top of my head, Jasmeet if you're reading this, i would love to hear your input on this topic again

 

[Don]

Summy are you sure you gave the right link...it's not working

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

Summy i dont think u can compare eating meat to rape or cold blooded murder. I agree with Sher on the meat issue. How can using the animal completely in a sensible way as eating meat as an energy source be bad but killing for instruments is ok? Guru Nanak didn't even have someone playing a tabla when he sung his Bani. Also like I said Dasam Granth is Guru Gobind Singh Ji's work but its not regarded as Guru therefore u cnt really cite it as something that defines Sikh belief. If he wanted people to use it as a main source for Sikhi he couldve made it Guru himself. As for Rehy Maryada the Gurus said Sikhism lives through the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib as well as people of the religion are supposed to make a code of how a SIkh shuld live and act as appropriate for the time. You see Sikhi is all about modernization and being with the time therefore the Guru's left some issues general at times. My personal view si that the Reht Maryada does does need to be rewritten again since it has been a while. I will never agree with the belief that women are only allowed to marry Sikhs whereas men can marry anyone. In my opinion that is a blatantly sexist statment although those writers did believe Sikhi can only be perserved since children follow the belief of their fathers. But in my case my Bhuaji is Sikh but her husband is Gujarati Hindu. Hes a great guy and her kids are Sikh. But under the writing of the Reht she isnt a good Sikh because her husband is Hindu. That is wrong in my opinion.

The Guru Granth Sahib Ji like i said is ALL a Sikh needs for guidance to God. Sikhs don't deal with politics and all that other stuff. Sikhi is just about being a humble, simple, and rational person. We aren't supposed to complicate our path to God with random beliefs and rituals. Thas why Sikhi focuses on finding God within oneself and doing Nam Jap

 

[Summy]

Naveen, I can go into it, but there are reasons why the Dasam Granth was not put in to Guru Jee. Main one is that the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is something for all following the thoughts of sikhi, while the Dasam Granth was dedicated to the Khalsa, something only Guru Gobind Singh Jee initiated. It needs to be respected as a holy scripture of sikhi, and like Turbo said, it is in all the important Gurdwara's all over the world, including Harimandir Sahib Jee, and of course at Anandpur Sahib.

I CANT BELIEVE THE LINK IS NOT WORKING. I have to get the link from by friend, I emailed him, so I will post it tomorrow.

---
Regarding Sher's post. Veeray, firstly, Guru Gobind Singh Jee was not a hunter, like today's explanation of waht it was. He didnt hunt an animal, and then put it on his wall or anything like that. The reason he hunted in sikh history is because it was to enpower the people of India. Guru Tegh Bahadur Jee, Guru Gobind Singh's father died protecting hindus and was executed for this. Guru Gobind Singh Jee had a connection of sacrifice. He also faught for the protection of hindu pandits against the mughals who were converting. Meaning, he got on his horse, and literally fought with the mughals. Our guru.

When he gave mukti to the animals he killed, it was the long overdue sacrifice, showing the Indian people that those who die can reach salvation. Because indians were reluctant to fight, the army was large, the mughals were numerous. This was Guru Jee's example of how, from his hands, a dead animals can reach salvation.

The issue is to that eating meat is not simplicity Sher. If you believe that each atma is the same. If you believe that an atma is serving its karmic duty by being in that form. If you understand that in Sikhi, you are no better than an animal, you understand why meat eating is no different than murder.

As far as a tabla being made of goat skin, your right, products made of animals shouldnt be allowed in Gurdwara's. Many instruments are not allowed in the Gurdwara that are animal product, and tabla's not being made of that skin is what is permitted only in Harimandir Sahib jee. There is a reason why proper attire is a kurta to the gurdwara. There is a reason why we take off our shoes, other than tracking in dirt. It is because a dead soul shouldnt be taken into a gurdwara unless it is being offered its last rites.



Meat eating is against sikhi, and there are people that are going to jutify it, and since we are in Kalyug, I understand it. Little sikh religious figures eat meat. It is not allowed anywhere near harimandir sahib ji.

The ONLY justification that meat eaters have is that it is not explicit in Guru Jee. Cold blooded murder Naveen said shouldnt be compared. Murder by a white person's definition, sure... Murder in Sikhi, is the exact same thing as killing an animal. There is no difference. Show me ONE bani, ONE line in Guru Ji that states a human is above an animal.

Think about every religious figure, none promoted or even ate meat. The only one I can think of was some old leader of the sikh religious party, but everyone from our Guru's to people such as....

bhindranwale (dont agree with this guy at all, but)
( lets just say all 14 jathedars of damdami taksal)
sant baba nand singh je
sant baba ishar singh je
sant baba koondar singh je
sant baba attar singh je
sant baba waryam singh je
sant baba thakur singh je
sant baba mitt singh je( a nihang)
sant baba keertan singh je( jathedat of taurna dal nihangs, a brahmgiani)

shall I go on?

 

[musafir12]

wow!
i learned so much thru this thread
we shud have more like these
lol never knew about tabla's
knew about the five k's though
good post..all of u!