Questions for Sikhs

[rajkaran]

This thread is amazing...learning a lot as well

My mom is slowly trying to make me vegetarian (and it's working)...she gave me an explanation but i'm not too sure if it's worthy for this thread because it's very simple/childish and might not be correct...

but i have one question...I'd like to hear others' responses

My Masi has been vegetarian all her life (i believe), but has been getting sick and has been forced by the doctor to start taking in more protein by eating fish...is she now a bad sikh because she's reluctantly been eating fish to keep herself healthy?

 

[Tuckerrrr]

Summy, our 10th Guru killed a bakra to create Khalsa. Sarangi's are made from horse hair. Tablas are made from goatskin.

The Gurus left it wide open on the meat issue, which is why there's so much controversy today. The real answer?

"only fools argue about whether to eat meat"



and i have a question for Swi (i think that's who said it), what common foundation are you speaking of that prohibits meat in Hinduism, Sikhism, Buddhism, and Jainism? remember that they all have different foundations....i get the argument for jainism....there are different types of hinduism, as well as different types of buddhism....it's never clarified in sikhism....it's all up to interpretation.

as far as dasam granth, no sikh scholar will agree that 100% was written by guru gobind singh ji.

 

[Sher]

The claims were shot down not once but 4 separate times by the Akal Takht. ON four separate occasions the Akal Takht has called historians, decendents, and even direct followers of Guru Gobind Singh Jee to evaluate everything from what he said, to his writing. The latest report was done in 2000 something using modern day technology to show that his writing in the Dasam Granth is the exact same as the writing contributed to the Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

It seems that you have alot of faith in Akal Takht with the Dasam Granth issue, so why not have faith in their decision to allow people to eat meat?

 

[musafir12]

damn so much to learn in this thread
loving it
come more coming ppl

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

that quote doesnt say its ok to eat meat. it simply says theres not point arguing about a topic that in the end doesn't really matter. People will always have their own views on this subject therefore some people will eat meat while others won't. I agree with Summy when he says we do not believe humans are greater or have more of a right to live over other beings but at the same time i dont think its wrong to eat meat if u use it with the purpose of nutrition. The Guru Granth Sahib doesnt say its bad to eat meat while it doesnt say its ok either. I believe like Sher said that thas wats unique about Sikhi tho. It was created to be a way of life that any person can use and adapt with their society or beliefs. Thus i think this was left open cuz i truly believe its a personal choice if u decide to eat meat or not. The Guru Granth Sahib specifies only on topics that relate to God specifcally and how to reach that being. It advises to be good and humble like I've said while still documenting things u shuldnt do cuz it is unhealthy and takes u out of ur controlled state of mind. Sikhi focuses on these prayers and its meannings not simply gettin into the moment of things at a religious function or feelin like u are a better person cuz uve gone to some holy place. Sikhi is all about ones self and finding God through urself. Therefore in that sense no one can be born a Sikh. True Sikhs are Gursikhs who have taken amrit and have officially joined Khalsa and must do Bani and keep the 5 K's. People have to find reason in their life for Sikhism, and if Sikhism is the right option then and only then when they are fully committed can they take the next step. All in all The specifics of one's personal life are up to oneself.

 

[yraparla]

I agree that it may be up to interpretation, but the consistent arguments for eating meat are that a) animal products are in gurudwars, b) it isn't expressly forbidden, and c) it's for nutrition

no one has seemed to make the argument that it is ok, only that it isn't wrong. There's a difference.

argument a is not a reason for animal products. Trust in the teachings, not in the people running you local Gurudwar
argument b is also not a support, and can be argued the other way that it didn't need to be forbidden since it shoudl have come about if you followed the teachings properly
argument c is the only reason I can kind of understand, but living in the West, you cannot honestly tell me you have nutrition problems.

If you're starving in India and all you have to eat are chickens. Part of me says absolutely go ahead. As Naveen said, you're not wasting the life, you're using it for sustenance. However, I also believe that it's equally great to recognize that the being has as much right to live as you do, and that you are both a part of the greater. So by recognizing this, you wont' eat the animal.

Fortunately in US and Canada you don't have this problem. So I don't buy the nutrition argument.

NAVEEN, you've kind of made my point.

my feeling is that it is something to strive for. You said no one is born Sikh, but must make the commitment and follow the right paths. I wholeheartedly agree. Many Hindus don't eat cows because they believe in the divinity of the animal. To me that's silly, how is a cow any more special than a chicken. I used it to believe it was a binary decision, be vegetarian or don't. But I've since realized that the point is to make decisions on your own.

To me, being a vegetarian is not something you must do as a Hindu, but as a Hindu must be done. I'm guessing vegetarian Sikhs feel similarly. It's a process, if you choose not to participate, that's ok, it doesn't make me any better than you.

 

[Summy]

Only fools argue whether to eat meat or not... and the extension of that is, because it so clearly wrong.

I really dont understand this. I mean, I said it like 50 times, the Guru Granth Sahib JI is not an instruction booklet. Your not going to get words for Guru Jee saying do this, and dont do that. I have studied Guru Jee extensively, and by the justification many people give, there are so many things that can be justified by the Guru Granth Sahib Jee. JUST because it is not explicitly stated when guru jee says " DONT EAT MEAT", doesnt mean it is allowed. Read all of Guru Jee and connect the dots, its that easy.

If you really want me to break it out, I will.... I like people to make their own decisions, I like people to connect the dots for themselves, but I wont know.... Here is a HAND written note from Guru Gobind Singh Jee, not only saying that meat eating is bad, but also showing that Guru Nanak Dev Ji also didnt eat meat... This is the justification outside of the GUru Granth Sahib Jee, that I guess only people in India and gursikhs realize..


Its on this website: you can read the whole thing if you want, but the important is the two large pictures of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's handwritten note: http://www.info-sikh.com/PageM1.html

Guru Jee says: When Guru Nanak in his sixth form prohibits Sikhs from eating flesh in such a strong language, how can he, in his tenth form, issue instructions absolutely contrary to and in negation of his own earlier instructions?

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For health reasons Rajkaran, it would be advised that your Aunt eat meat, but only for health reasons and if it consists of life and death situations. I have a friend who is a gursikh, but had psorasis on his face, and need to do laser treatment to get rid of it. He consulted with his personal guru as did I and they both said, if it is health related then it is permittable but they should refrain from it as long as possible.

Congrats Rajkaran on becoming a vegetarian (or trying to become one), its true a respectable thing. Once you met with Waheguru your sacrifices in the material world will be recognized. In my opinion about meat eaters...As long as you can look at our guru's as say, you wanted us to eat meat, after reading all their words, then you can do whatever you want.
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The Akal tahkt allowed all meat except for Jaktha meat- the islam cut way. In their reuling they said people will not become true gursikhs unless we make a sacrifice to adhere to the ways of today. They never justified it with saying that its okay to eat meat. Also, is you want to know what the meaning of Jaktha is and why it is comprehensive of all meat, then read this:

Dear Bibi Anad Kaur Je, and others interested in this meat debate.

Anad Kaur you are correct in saying that quotes and references are required to prove that Maharaj Guru Granth Sahib Je, does infact state that meat eating is wrong. Before giving these details lets look at common sense, and what Dharam actually involves.

In all ways of God-realization, there is a way. In Taoism this is called Tao, in Sikhi the hukam, in Christianity the will, and so on. In order to realize, one must follow this path. This path is difficult, as the path is narrow and sharp, and fine. As stated in Anand Sahib.

The truth is sublime, and what is correct in one situation is opposite in another, that is why the higher realization you gain, leads you to react differently to a given situation. For example, a lie is a lie, but to lie to save a life, it is like the truth. Thus in extreme circumstance for the survival of the Guru Khals Panth, it may have been necessary, to eat meat.

To follow the truth, to know what is real, to gain the vision, the experience, one must therefore have love and compassion. It is out of compassion and love, that the path is initiated from. Love for everything, even your enemies th creation, good and bad, as they are all a part of Guru Je. The Panj Pyarey gave their heads out of love.

"If you wish the to play the game of love, come humbly with your head in your palms." Jo tou prem kelan......

Hence if you wish to have love submit to the will, the way. As mentioned in Jap ji sahib, it is best to submit to his will.

It is from this Daya, that the Earth is supported (not the mythical bull), and that Dharam is created, and from this Santokh ( contentment and peace are obtained).

"Daul Dharam Daya Ka putth......"

This is also a key basic in most religions, righteousness, love, and contentment. In Zen buddhism is is know as :

Zhen-Shan-Ren (jhun-shahn-ren)?Zhen (truth, truthfulness); Shan (compassion,
benevolence, kindness); Ren (forbearance, tolerance, endurance).

To follow Dharam to gain contentment (santokh) by following his hukam, through unlimited compassion, tolerance, and forgiveness ( from daya).

Therefore to inflict pain on an animal, known as a na-dos(h) jeev in Guru Granth sahib is incorrect. Also the references to karam, what you sow is what you reap, is part and parcel of Guru Je`s message. There is also references to the churasse lakh joona, in Guru Maharaj.

"karme appo apney key neyrey keh do-rr", in salok of Jap ji sahib.

kyqy ruK ibrK hm cIny kyqy psU aupwey ] (156-11, gauVI cyqI, mhlw 1)
I took the form of so many plants and trees, and so many animals.
kyqy nwg kulI mih Awey kyqy pMK aufwey ]2] (156-11, gauVI cyqI, mhlw 1)
Many times I entered the families of snakes and flying birds. ||2||

lK caurwsIh Brmdy mnhiT AwvY jwie ] (162-13, gauVI bYrwgix, mhlw 3)
Through 8.4 million incarnations, people wander lost; in stubborn-mindedness, they come and go.
gur kw sbdu n cIinE iPir iPir jonI pwie ]2] (162-14, gauVI bYrwgix, mhlw 3)
They do not realize the Word of the Guru`s Shabad; they are reincarnated over and over again. ||2||

WHAT MAHARAJ SAYS:
QUOTES FROM BANI AGAINST MEAT EATING/KILLING TO EAT:

Lets first look at Bhai Gurdas Je`s vara (The key to Guru-Maharaj).

Bhagat Sadhana was a butcher, obviously killing animals for the meat. A few of his shabads are in Guru Granth Sahib Je.

Bhai Gurdas says the following:

Though the butcher (Bhagat Sadhana) got salvation, killing life-forms and to eat them is a bad deed.

Je kasaaee udhriaa, jeeaa ghaai na khaaeeai bhangaa.

Also there is a parable of ingratitude, where a sweeping laday, cooks dogs meat in wine, puts it into the stinking skull, covers it with a dirty blood stained rag. When asked what she is carrying she replies, I cover my food so it cannot be seen by ungrateful glances.

The meaning being that bad things, eg meat wine ,are indeed bad and shameful, but an ungrateful glance to those that eat them is worse.

Taken From Bhai Gurdas Je`s Vaara .. Dr Gobind Singh Mansukani and Macauliffe, " The sikh religion".

Gurbani tells us what to eat:

Kabir khoob khana khecharee ja mehh anmrit lohn
haara roti karnay galaa katava kauun (ang 374 Guru granth Sahib je)

Kabir eat as much rice and pulses, with salt is tasteful
What is the use of cutting throats to satisfy your hunger? You will be beheaded as punishment.

Do not give pain to animals:

dookh na daee kisaay jeaa patt sioo ghar jaavhoo (322 ang GGSJ)

Kabir Bhang masahalee supapaan jo jo pranne kaahhe
teraath barat naaym koiie tay sabhhey rasatul jaheh (1377 ang GGSJ)

Kabir those that take hemp, fish and takes liquor
will go to hell and pilgrimage and fast are of no use.

Bhai Gurdas je:

maas khaan gal vaddkey hal tinaara kaaun hovssee

Vaar 25.

Those who kill living beings and eat meat, what punishment will they suffer, do they realise?

Japi sahib :

asankh malechh mall pakk kii-y

inumberable malechh eat filth??

The word malechh is a used by strict brahmins, and sadhus, as to those that consume wine, meat.

Also :

Beyd purreyeh mukh meete bani.
jeaa kuhat na sangiyeh parani.

You read the bayds scriptures so sweetly.
Arent you ashamed about slaughtering the creatures oh man?

From Manmohan Singhs -Rehat Maryada points of contention .

The word kuttha....

Paap Karendar Sarpar Muthey.
Ajraeel Pharrey Phar KUTHHEY. (pg. 1019)
The sinner will certainly be ruined or destroyed.
The angel of death will seize and kill them.

(Here the word "kuthhey" means simply killing, not killing by Halaal)

Bed Parhey Mukh Mitthee Baani
Jeeaan KUHAT Na Sangey Paraanee. (pg. 201)
He (Pandit) recites the Vedas very sweetly, but he does not hesitate to kill life.

Abhakhya Ka KUIHHA Bakra Khanaa
Choukay Upar Kisey Na Jaanaa. (pg. 472)
They eat the meat obtained while uttering the unspeakable word (referring to Qalima of the Muslims which the Hindus considered as unspeakable) and allow none to enter
their kitchen square

This to a brahmam or hindu, who does not kill in the halal fashion, thus the word kuttha does not necessarily mean halal, as some sikhs like to believe. It means to slaughter with an instrument.(bayd parraei mukh meeta bani jeeha kuhat na sangeyeh prani ). There is no way to kill humanely.

Also if sikhs say Jhatka is a way to kill, in a painless fashion, this argument has no truth in it. The word jhatka, is not in Dasam Gur, or Guru Granth Sahib je. Also certain shabads in Guru granth sahib condemn the fact that scriptures are repeated while performing slaughter, this is what they do while performing Jhatka. So, in reality there is little difference between this and halal, as it is sacrificial, and almost paganism.

Taken from "Rehat Marayada Points of contention" by Manmohan Singh Je.:

Baba Hore Khanna Khushi Khuaar
Jit Khaadey Tan Peeriay, Man Meh Chaleh Vikaar. (pg. 196)
0 Baba! All other foods (except the Naam)
create trouble in the body and fill the mind with evil.


This tukhh that bani says, naam is our food, love for guru jes name, foods for mind and body create trouble. Therefore eat little and simply, and sleep less. Where does a pork chop or burger fit into this equation?

Mohsin Fani (1615-70), the well known historian and a contemporary of Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, writes in his work DABISTAN-E-MAZAHIB as follows:

"Having prohibited his disciples to drink wine and eat pork, he (Nanak) himself
abstained from eating flesh and ordered not to hurt any living being. After him this precept was neglected by his followers; but Arjun Mal, one of the substitutes of his Faith, renewed the prohibition to eat flesh and said: This has not been approved by Nanak."

Sri Guru Granth Sahib prohibits eating of animal flesh in clearcut and unambiguous language in anumber of places:

Jee Badhoh So Dharam Kar ThaapohAdharam Kaho Kat Bhai.
Aapas Ko Munwar Kar Thaapoh, Kaa Ko Kaho Kasaaee. (pg. 1103)

You kill animals and call it religion (Rahit); then what indeed is irreligion (Kurahit)?
Even then you consider yourself as a sage of sages; then whom to call a butcher?

Bed Kateb Kaho Mat Jhoothhay, Jhoothhaa Jo Na Bichaarey.
Jo Sabh Meh Ek Khudal Kahat Ho,To Kio Murghi Maarey. (pg. 1350)

Do not call various religious texts false. False is one who gives no thought to their contents. If you consider God is in all, then why you slaughter the chicken (i.e., life?)

Rojaa Dharey, Manaavey Mlah, Svaadat Jee Sanghaarey.
Aapaa Dekh Avar Nahin Dekhey,Kaahey Kow Jhakh Maarey. (pg. 1375)

You keep fasts (i.e., religious acts) to appease God. At the same time you slay life for your relish. This utter selfishness is nothing but empty or nonsensical talk.

Kabir Jee Jo Maareh Jor Kar,Kaahtey Heh Ju Halaal.
Daftar Daee Jab Kaadh Hal, Hoegaa Kaun Havaal (pg. 1375)

Whosoever slays life by force and call it sanctified; What will be his fate when he will be called to account for it in His Court?

Kabir Bhaang, Machhli Surapaan Jo Jo Praanee Khahey.
Tirath, Barat, Nem Kiaye Te Sabhay Rasaatal Jahey. (pg. 1376)

Whosoever eats flesh, fish, etc. and takes wine and hemp, all his religious acts will go to waste.

Kabir Khoob Khaana Khichri, Ja Meh Amrit Lon.
Heraa Rotee Kaamey Galaa Kataavey Kon. (pg. 1374)

Blessed is the simple food of rice mixed with salt; Who would risk his head to be slain hereafter, for the meat one eats here?

Also in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, after Siri Shaster naam mala, there are a number of small couplets, like Khalsa Mahima (jagat jot jape...) and also a small couplet on Rehat called Sikhi Rehat. In this the rehat has been explained using islamic arabic/persian words. Guru has stated that a sikh of the guru will not act in the fashion of Halal, e.g circumscision, meat rituals, shaving of hair etc, or Haram. Haram being eating meat that is not halal, therefore any other meat, and adultery. Also wearing panj kaaf (5 k`s), not to trim ones hair, or dye the hair.

There are many more quotes from various rehat-namey etc, but this will make this very lengthy indeed. I hope this helps.Look into Gurbani, read it all for yourself, instead of small tukhs from a lengthy shabad(s), and make up your up own mind. The angs are given (page numbers, on some of the quotes. Hope this helps.

--------------


Every sikh religious figure and theologian who has studied the Dasam Granth has said it is 100% the workings of Guru Gobind Singh Jee. Gour separate inquires ranging in 100's of years have found the same thing. They did writing analyzation of the writing in the Dasam Granth and the Guru Granth Sahib Je, and found the same thing..

So... if you dont believe in the Dasam Granth, then you believe in amrit, therefore, dont take amrit, and refrain from being part of the Khalsa. Continue to call yourself sikh, and when you meet waheguru, explain yourself to the entity that it matters.

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[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

yo Summy i thought Akal Takht said its ok to eat Jatka Meat (basically one stroke and animal is dead= no suffering) jus not Halal (Zabiha) meat

 

[zagreus]

After taking one night off from BTF (yes, it's like work keeping up with all this)...this thread really went on quite a bit. And seeing as how Jaideep mentioned me by name on a previous conversation we've had, I might as well respond to it. This post will generally be quite long (i guess), and although there are other threads about topics such as caste and this one on sikh beliefs...i feel as though i'll just respond to them as a whole on this thread.

I've been reading extensively on Sikhi ever since I returned back from London at the end of 2008, while i was there i met some great amritdaris that opened my eyes through great conversation/debate. I was thoroughly involved in various sikh societies while i was living there (over 3 months), and that sparked even greater interest in sikh thought. I've always read about sikhi through various authors but ever since i returned from london...i've been sparked for to know more.

For the first question that was asked...no cutting of the hair or trimming of the beard is allowed under sikhi. It is part of the 5ks, which were passed down since the birth of the khalsa. That question has already been answered before. Harma Singh makes a great post about the case of youth that feel that the kesh is not important anymore. This can be linked back to 1984, and can be linked to parents as well (not bashing anyone here). While i was reading on the topic of sikhism, a brit mentioned to me he used to be a sardar but was later forced to cut his hair because his parents told him that was the best for his future. In order to get a job, he would have to be clean shaven. This is alarming and put a fire in me. I've also dealt with situations with girls that would only date a clean shaven sikh, because that would look better. Be a strong sardar, and good will come. That is the idea of the kesh as well (the pagg especially), to stand out in a crowd, be proud...and to hit any injustice. It is not meant to give into it.

The same goes for drinking. One should not drink because the alcohol would pollute the mind and body, and cause you to lose control of your actions.

The issue of castes is interesting. Although Sikhi rejects the caste system as a whole...it does exist under exist under a different social framework. Patwant Singh wrote some interesting things on the topic of castes (i tried to find the book today, but no idea where i put it). Historically, during that time there was a caste system set up by hinduism. Clearly, most of the converts to sikhism were previously hindus (as were gurus we clearly adore). The caste system was already ingrained into the psyche of sikh converts, and that eventually led to a social system. This social system itself came after Guru Gobind Singh Ji's death, when the Mughals were trying to break the power of the sikh forces. In accounts i've read, the system itself is highly suspect. Jatts owe their land itself to Banda Bahadur after he won back the land for the sikhs and gave the land to the farmers. Jatt in that time was just a word for farmer...nothing else. Later under the british, it becomes more important to set up a social structure that'll be clear for people to know who the ruling classes were. It's like the Europeans did with Rwanda, and how Tutsis and Hutus were nonexistent (as a social structure) until the time the europeans came.
I personally am very much against hearing about a caste or social structure in sikhism, since there isn't one. I've visited varying Jatt/Ramgarhia gurdwaras while i was in london and i was alarmed at how important being jatt was. I asked a person what religion he was...he said he was a "Jatt Sikh". After reading quite a bit about the topic, those two words shouldn't be together. By putting those two words together, it becomes an oxymoron. There's more for me to write about on this topic, but seeing as how i'm at work...it's hard to get every single detail straight.


Now onto the meat eating issue. Jaideep mentioned how him and i shared a conversation together about the topic. Summy makes many interesting points on the topic, as do Naveen and Sher. I agree more with what Naveen and Sher state on the topic itself. Historically, if we put in context to the times, as a religion (which was cited by patwant singh, khushwant singh and a few other british historians), sikhs were known as being vegetarians. Many people who came into sikhi were converts from hinduism, and that tradition did carry over to sikhism. Guru Amar Das in one account stated that after langar, he would throw out the food into the forests to allow the animals of nature to take part in the food. And to the point of Guru Hargobind, in his first sermon he asked of his followers to go to the forests and hunt and train for the battles that will come with the mughals since the death of Guru Arjan Dev. http://www.sikhee.com/Vangaar-The-First-Sermon-of-Guru-Hargobind-Sahib.htm
This does not justify the eating of meat, but Guru-Ji did hunt. He fought lions in order to train himself for battle. It was also well known that Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Nihaangs used to kill bakra in order to train them about the feeling of death. They were taught to kill with a single blow to keep from further pain for the being. We tend to mix up the lives of the Gurus themselves, with that of the Guru Granth Sahib (which will forever be our immortal Guru). We follow the examples set forth by the Gurus, but we should always seek advice from our holiest of scriptures.

In my case, I do eat meat. I feel there is no wrong done by me eating meat that is NOT Hallal. I do not touch Hallal food knowingly, I do not drink, I do no drugs, I do paht everyday (prakash and sukhasn), but does me eating meat make me a bad sikh?

I believe Summy mentioned that there is a debate about meat eating in Sikhism, and that debate shows that meat eating is wrong. I think that is incorrect, I think the topic isn't defined..and that poses problems. When it comes to drinking...it says to not take a substance that will harm your body/mind...there. Now i know. It becomes even more vague when the Rehat Maryada mentions the fact to not eat Hallal meat, but that itself leaves an opening.
There is no way to solve the issue..

And i know for a fact that this post will be misread. Things are taken out of context and I'm sure it will happen. I will gladly respond in kind if that is the case.

 

[Sher]

plus..if u take the Sikh aspect out of it and just look it from a non-Sikh's perspective....and just look at how meat is prepared in this country...and how the animals are treated......you'd stop eating meat..

i could post a couple videos up but they're very graphic...

Ok lets look at this non-religiously. Trust me, I know about how they are treated and have seen those videos. Last year at VCU I did a project on the issue in my Bio class with a teacher that was clearly trying to make everyone vegetarian haha. She also looked at the environmental aspects and said how much pollution is caused with the new methods of raising the animals. I was completely on board with what she was saying until I thought of something and asked her a question she still hasn't answered. If everyone turned vegetarian wouldnt that disturb the ecosystem and pretty much end the world? Humans would be eating alot more veggies and the animals that are saved would eat more veggies and would ruin the carrying capacity.

Back to the religious point of view.. Summy said people wont become true Gursikhs, but I know Gursikhs that were told by their Panj Piyare in India that they can eat meat.

Swi, you forgot a huge argument. Guru Gobind Singh hunted. People may say he didnt eat the animals he hunted (haven't seen any evidence that is true), but I still don't see a difference. People say you shouldn't eat meat because your are killing an animal, but they still seem to differentiate and say hunting is not as bad as eating meat.

 

[zagreus]

plus..if u take the Sikh aspect out of it and just look it from a non-Sikh's perspective....and just look at how meat is prepared in this country...and how the animals are treated......you'd stop eating meat..

i could post a couple videos up but they're very graphic...

Ok lets look at this non-religiously. Trust me, I know about how they are treated and have seen those videos. Last year at VCU I did a project on the issue in my Bio class with a teacher that was clearly trying to make everyone vegetarian haha. She also looked at the environmental aspects and said how much pollution is caused with the new methods of raising the animals. I was completely on board with what she was saying until I thought of something and asked her a question she still hasn't answered. If everyone turned vegetarian wouldnt that disturb the ecosystem and pretty much end the world? Humans would be eating alot more veggies and the animals that are saved would eat more veggies and would ruin the carrying capacity.

Back to the religious point of view.. Summy said people wont become true Gursikhs, but I know Gursikhs that were told by their Panj Piyare in India that they can eat meat.

Swi, you forgot a huge argument. Guru Gobind Singh hunted. People may say he didnt eat the animals he hunted (haven't seen any evidence that is true), but I still don't see a difference. People say you shouldn't eat meat because your are killing an animal, but they still seem to differentiate and say hunting is not as bad as eating meat.

Sher you make a very interesting point on that. My dad is a full Gursikh and was told by Panj Piyare that he could eat meat. He doesn't eat a lot of meat...but he does.

 

[Summy]

Sher,

The question is not about everyone being vegetarian in the world, it is those who believe in the Khalsa, and sikhism. Non-religiously, the way animals and inhumanely treated would yes scare you away. If everyone was vegetarian than people would stop raising stock for the purpose of eating them. Its a hypothetical thats unrealistic, and is basically a waste of time to think about.

I know some gurikhs who were told during terrorism in punjab to kill innocents. I know people who were told to bomb to akal takht because it has "lost its way". That's not a viable argument. You need to be religiously educated to use it as a defense.

If I told you Guru Gobind Singh Jee is an extension of God, and he granted mukti (salvation) to the animals that he killed, its much different than hunting. Hunting is a sport, for fun, where granting salvation to an animal has a much higher purpose.

Hunting in the sense you are proposing is wrong. It is just as bad, killing the soul is as bad as eating it.

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Jasmeet,

I understand your POV, and I respect it. I dont have a problem when people say they are not sure about eating meat and then they do it. IT is those who say it is accepted in sikhi that enrages me. If you have a hand written note from Guru Gobind Singh Ji who said he doesnt eat meat, and that other guru's didnt eat meat, how can it possibly be accpted?

Thats fine if people want to use abscurity of Guru Ji to justify things against sikhi philosophy. We had people who justify killing innocent people with Guru Ji, so killing innocent animals and souls are not that far off.

Just never say Guru Ji permits it, it is extremely offensive. I had the privlegde a while back to sit in on a lecture from Sant Baba Thakur Singh Jee, and he explained this fully. He said those who use abscurity can get away with alot in sikhi, but sikhi thought and philosophy which a Gursikh is supposed to be intuned with, should reveal to them why killing a soul, cannot be justified with religion.


If you believe a human = animal, because in sikhi soul = soul. Then how can killing a human be different than killing an animal. Somebody answer that. There is no diffrence, that is the bottom line.

THe reason why we dont smoke or drink, is not only to keep our body's pure, but of soul's pure as well. In Guru Ji, we are reffered to as atma's. With such an importance put on soul's why is it than western philosophy such as the justification of meat eating is able to creep into our dharam.

If you want to eat meat, do it. Just dont use the justification that my religion permits it, thats all.

Sher, I assume your not sikh?

 

[Sher]

Sher,


I know some gurikhs who were told during terrorism in punjab to kill innocents. I know people who were told to bomb to akal takht because it has "lost its way". That's not a viable argument. You need to be religiously educated to use it as a defense.

If I told you Guru Gobind Singh Jee is an extension of God, and he granted mukti (salvation) to the animals that he killed, its much different than hunting. Hunting is a sport, for fun, where granting salvation to an animal has a much higher purpose.


Sher, I assume your not sikh?

I highly doubt that gursikhs where told to kill innocents or to bomb akal thakt. Do you have any eevidence of this? They may have been told to defend their faith, but I doubt the panyj pyare said "kill innocents"

I also don't see how the whole mukti thing works. Did the Guru specifically choose animals that he wanted to grant Mukti to? Or was it a random process? Im honestly asking those questions because I don't know.

Not that it matters, what makes you think that I am not Sikh. I'll tell you my religious affiliation later (people that know me, don't tell him haha). However, I do not really see why it is relevant as this isn't POL. Personal attacks aren't needed and do not help to strengthen your point.

 

[yraparla]

Sher, Summy was using casual rhetoric to make a justified argument: that simply being told by someone that it's OK (or not OK) to do something is not enough. Arguments really should be supported by Gurus or well-respected texts. As I stated before, simply because someone allows a tabla in a Gurudwar doesn't mean it should be there. Summy was just using some hyperbole about bad actions being justified through religion (i.e. terrorists hiding behind religion to justify violence). If he was really making accusations he'd provide more information, he's just making a point.

as far as mukti, your question is perfect, because the answer is we don't know. The entire point is that we cannot make the judgment call on who should receive it. Only those very close to God and who were true believers in their religion (e.g. incarnations of Guru) are capable of such understanding.

So where does that leave us? vegetarian.

(I hope you don't think I'm calling you out or anything, you were just the last post)

To sort of rephrase Summy. The point is not to convert anyone. If you eat meat then thats ok, but you're hard pressed to find direct religious support for either side. Given that it is not expressly clear, then it must be answered by the nature of the religion itself, and here I agree with Summy's reasoning.

If you're eating meat, it doesn't make you any less of a follower of your religion in my mind (be it Hinduism, Sikhism, etc)...but I personally believe that vegetarianism is a process that helps you develop spiritually. So following it is to your benefit, even if you don't understand it, as it brings you closer in action to those who were greater than you.

I don't know how much more I have to contribute to this discussion. Summy, rep the veggies brother

 

[Meistro]

I also don't see how the whole mukti thing works. Did the Guru specifically choose animals that he wanted to grant Mukti to? Or was it a random process? Im honestly asking those questions because I don't know.

Same here. Summy can you please explain this again? Or maybe rephrase. I had a little bit of trouble understanding this part. This discussion is amazing. I feel so enlightened to be reading all of this. THank you for all your insight guys, its great.

 

[Summy]

Thanks for the support Swi, well said.

Sher, I knew you were not sikh from the second that you talked about Guru Gobind Singh Jee and hunting. You continue to prove that because you question who an extension of god, our Guru's give salvation to. It came across that you were not sikh, in my opinion, I could be wrong, because any basic sikh would know that hunting and giving salvation the way Guru Gobind Singh Jee is an extreme difference. He did it as an extension of god, and giving salvation to an animal from his hands ,allowed that animal to break its karmic cycle and reach salvation. An animal is an animal. So if you read my previous posts and why he choose animals to sacrifice, you would have seen why killing a dog or killing a crow would be no different.

Mukti was given to animals to show popluations of India who were being tortured that a life can reach salvation and fearing death is a materialistic loss, and that we should be more concerned with the purity of our lives... Remember at the first Amrit ceremony, people believed greatly in Guru Ji. He asked for 5 men to step forward and give their lives to waheguru, and people did step forward. So, granting mukti is something, if you are a beliver in sikhi, is something our guru's were able to do.

Who personally attacked you?

If your going to let panj pyare dictate your life, your going to be a patsy to their personal beliefs and their agenda. There are panj pyare who have affilations with groups like the babbar khalsa. THey are not our guru's. They are respected, but are not to be substituted for God's word. Thats why we have the Guru Granth Sahib Ji (not the instructional booklet, not the how to) but the Granthi of lessons. They are lessons where the meanings are clear and not explicit.

---

ALRIGHT, I have an example of how abscurity can change your mind. I have been a vegetarian for a long time, since my childhood I never liked meat. To help with my protein defiency, a combined diet of high soy and protein shakes (non-meat derived) consumes my day. If I tell you how many double stacked veggie patty's from subway I eat a week, you'll be shocked haha.

I am a health nut. I train 6 days a week, like crazy, and have been lifting for about 10 years. When I was young and dumb, I took supplements to boast my results. I took some test, and had some supplements that boast up productivity similar to the steroid deca. Before I went to do those, I evaluated the Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj Ji. There is NO TALK of these supps. There is talk of living pure, and no doing nashaa, but these supps are not nashaa... Are these supps for or against sikhi? Well, those roid guys are defintely not following sikhi correctly, and niether was I.

ITs about living an unpure life, and thats what I was doing. I came to my senses, asked for forgiveness and at peace for what I did but the fact is abscurity can lead to a lot of things, but if you understand your religion, the thought then you understand what is right and wrong.

And if all else fails... Remember what Nav Bhatia says (all my T.O. people)...

BK VEGGIE NUMBER 1 haha.

 

[rajkaran]

Thank you all for the info!

 

[Sher]

Sher, Summy was using casual rhetoric to make a justified argument: that simply being told by someone that it's OK (or not OK) to do something is not enough. Arguments really should be supported by Gurus or well-respected texts. As I stated before, simply because someone allows a tabla in a Gurudwar doesn't mean it should be there. Summy was just using some hyperbole about bad actions being justified through religion (i.e. terrorists hiding behind religion to justify violence). If he was really making accusations he'd provide more information, he's just making a point.

First of all, no need to worry about calling me out Swi. I know this discussion is all in the name of respect and education so Im not offended at all. Now back to the debate haha.

The Panj Pyare are actually pretty highly revered in Sikhism and a Sikhs only present-day Guru is Guru Granth Sahib. So something said by them is alot more credible than something said by a random person on the street. Most Panj Pyare are pretty well educated on Sikhism, so I think their rehat and what they say is valid in this type of argument and Summy, your statements about them saying to kill the innocent is pretty disrespectful.

Sher, I knew you were not sikh from the second that you talked about Guru Gobind Singh Jee and hunting. You continue to prove that because you question who an extension of god, our Guru's give salvation to. It came across that you were not sikh, in my opinion, I could be wrong, because any basic sikh would know that hunting and giving salvation the way Guru Gobind Singh Jee is an extreme difference. He did it as an extension of god, and giving salvation to an animal from his hands ,allowed that animal to break its karmic cycle and reach salvation. An animal is an animal. So if you read my previous posts and why he choose animals to sacrifice, you would have seen why killing a dog or killing a crow would be no different.

Summy, you seem to be pretty certain about me not being Sikh. Almost as certain as you are that meat eating is not allowed in Sikhism. My only request is that you think before jumping to conclusions. I am Sikh.
And as far as you trying to ridicule Panj Pyare (I'm not saying they are better than anyone as they are human beings like me and you), but what makes you think they are less qualified than your personal Guru that you referred to in a previous post. Your only Guru should be Guru Granth Sahib. And yes, I have read several passages from Guru Granth Sahib, and have looked to it for guidance, but have not sensed that meat is forbidden. I know I am not perfect, and it is possible that I am wrong; but it is also possible that I'm not wrong. I'm not the type of person that would jump to decisions because I think I know something. I always try to keep an open-mind because I know I have much to learn and I hope you do the same.

 

[Summy]

Sher, how did I insult the Panj Pyare. First of all, the way I see it, and many other gursikhs see it, the only panj pyare were those five who step forth bravely in Anandpur in 1699. Panj Pyare are human like you and I, and panj pyare have been linked to affiliations outside of sikhi. They are people with affilations, they are not like our Guru. So for them to give you permission to do something boggles my mind. If you want, PM me and I will give you the contact number and info of someone in India, who was told by Panj Pyare around the time of terrorism in Punjab, ON THE DAY OF VAISHAKI nonetheless, to "defend" their faith, by any means, which so happened didnt oppose the killing on innocents. I would never disrespct the Panj Pyare, but you have to realize the age we are in brother.

Secondly, you claim your a sikh.. I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THIS... Are you a gursikh or are you born into sikh lineage? Have you taken amrit? Do you naam jaap in the morning? Do you do simran everyday? Do you adhere to the rules of the khalsa?


You claimed Guru Gobind Singh Maharaj Ji was a hunter. Ummm, yeah, that would get you pretty much killed in a lot of places in india. There is a difference between hunting and giving mukti from a Guru's hands. That was offensive. The thing I find interesting about meat eaters is that they have no justification for the arguments of atma, reincarnation, the lives of the Guru's... They continue to hind under the rug of obscurity, which always interests me.

Listen, I dont care if you eat meat. It means nothing to me. Thats your karma. If you know there is no justification for meat eating in Sikhi (even if you cant see the signs that point to NO NO NO) and you continue to do it, no skin off my back. If in the next life, one who eats meat is brutally slaughtered for taste buds, then its up to you. JUST DONT, justify it with Sikhism. When you have a dharam that means everything to me, and millions around the world, and you drag it down to say, ahhh yeah wellll im not sure, but i think sikhi allows meat eating, its enraging, and offensive. If the majority of gurikhs, religious leaders, and our guru's are against the impurity of consuming a soul, then for you to say, yeah its okay, its really really offensive.

I have much to learn, and my Guru never tells me what to do. He talks to me about the lessons of sikhi. When I have a question he tells me the history and what is said, but would never say, Summy do this and thats okay, or wrong. He is a religious man, not an 8 ball.


So when you cant justify any actions with Guru Jee, why continue to do it? So do you thing, eat your meat, tear in that atma, that according to our dharam, could be a passed loved one, just dont say my religion tells you its okay, thats all.

But just in case there is any doubt, have a read:


Kabeer jeea ju maraih jor kar, kaihte hai jo halaal
daftar daee jab kaaDh hai, hoigaa koan havaal.//199// (1375.G.G.S.)

Sayeth Kabir, sayeth thou by "forcefully" killing living beings, Halaal.
When in God's house, your accounts be taken, what will then there happen to you!

Kabeer jor keeaa su julam hai, lay-e jabaab khudaae
daftar lekhaa neeksai, maar muhai muh khaae.//200// (1375)

Sayeth Kabir, using force is unlawful, God shall question this.
when your accounts will be opened, you shall reap on your face a God's wrath.

Bed Kateb kahaih mat jhootey, jhootaa jo naa bichaarai,
jo sabh mai ek khudaae kahait ho, tio kio murgee marai?! (1350)

Do not say that the vedas are false, false are those who do not reflect.
If in all is one God, then why does one kill the hen!

Kabeer bhang mashalee suraapaan, jo jo pranee khaan-he
teerath barat neym kee-ey, te sabh rasaatal jaan-he (1377)

suraapaan=alcohol rasaatal=below hell, underground.

Those people who drink bhang, eat fish, drink alcohol,
and do ritual bathing, keep fast, all shall be burried underground.

Kabeer khoob khaanaa kheecharee, jaa mai amrit loon,
heyraa rotee kaarney, galaa kataavai kaon! (1378)

heyraa=meat by hunting

Sayeth Kabir, that the best food is eating, kichree=dals where nectar-sweet is the salt.
You eat hunted meat, but which animal is willing to have their head cut?!

Jeea badh-hu su dharam kar thaaphu, adharam kaih-hu kat bhaaee.
Aapas kao munivar kar thaphu, ka kao kaih-hu kaasaaee? (1102-1103)

munivar-saintly people kaasaaee-butchers badh-hu=killing
On killing animals you have created your religion (the path of righteousness),
then my brother what do we say is not religion (righteousness?)
You call yourself, saintly people, then who do we call butchers?!

There are many more as well by Bhai Gurdas ji,

Var 31 pouRee 9

je kasaaee udhariaa, jeea ghaae na khaaeeaa bhungaa.


Just because the Guru has saved the butcher,
that does not mean that we should kill animals and eat them.

Guru Arjan Dev Ji says, Pg 201

Bed PaRai mukh meeTee BaNee, Jeean kuhat na sangai praaNee.

sangai=ashamed kuhat-kill praaNee-humans Jeean-living beings

After reading the entire shabad, this line depicts, that the so called learned, saintly people read the sweet hymns of the Veds using their mouths, however they do not hesitate(feel ashamed) to kill animals.

---------

Sometimes I feel like people are looking for do this, do that type dharam. Nobody is born a sikh. You become a sikh. What separate sikhism fromt he world? It is a way of life, and Guru Gobind Singh jee said that. If your looking for Guru Jee to say, DO THIS and NOT THAT, then your looking for something like the 10 comandments, in "religions". Your not going to find that in Sikhi, we are a way of life, we are different. If your looking for DO THIS and DO THAT, you wont find it in sikhi.

Dont mean to be disrespectful and nothing personal, its just, when someone may bring down your religion and what it stands for, it kinda gets my on edge. But nothing personal, and no disrespect.

 

[Sher]

I was just saying what you made up (as swi said you did) about the panj pyare telling someone to kill innocent people was pretty disrespectful as they are supposed to be pretty noble. "Defending your faith by all means" and "kill innocent people" are two completely different things. I am willing to defend my faith at all costs, but that doesn't mean i would kill innocent people. This may be how you, or the other person in India interpreted this, but we do interpret things differently (like the meat issue).

Secondly, I will answer. I am not a Gursikh and have not taken amrit (because thats a requirement in becoming a Gursikh) but I do naam jaap in the morning and do simran everyday and yes I try my best to adhere to the rules of the khalsa (other than taking amrit) and I do plan on taking amrit in the future. I don't drink, smoke or cut my hair. I walk around with a pagh and open dhari every day, but I don't really see why this matters to you. I never questioned your religion, why question mine? I know I'm not a perfect Sikh, but I honestly don't know anyone that is. In my eyes, that includes you. You have shown time after time a pretty strong ego (which is looked down upon in Sikhism). I do not know you well at all, and do respect you for being educated on Sikhism, but in my opinion people should look at themselves and their own faults before looking at others.

Yes, I made the claim and still believe it. Sorry if that offended you, but I'm going to say what I think. Isn't that what the Gurus taught us to do? I'm not sayin that to disrespect them, as I still have nothing but love and respect for the Gurus.

About the meat issue, I have presented my evidence and you have presented yours, but we still feel the same way we did when we started. This just shows how controversial of an issue this is and will remain. In my opinion, there is no concrete evidence that points either way so I will continue to do what I feel is right, which is what the Gurus did in their time.

All im saying on your "personal Guru" issue is that there is no Guru in Sikhism after Guru Granth Sahib. I don't see anything wrong with going to someone fore educational support and direction, but I would never call them my Guru