Re: "Golden Age" of Bhangra?

[Jeeti]

Agree with Havish a hundred percent. Truly "good" performances are not seen through videos....

There should be no discussions regarding the best dancer?....can you really even compare one dancer to the other when they are doing completely different segments/styles....? Doubtful....

Besides, it just feeeds egossss...

 

[Vick]

Meistro & Co. I think you're talkin about 2 different ideas here:

1 - No more celebrity teams
2 - We can't look at a lineup and predict winners anymore; judging is very vary-ing and unpredictable

On Point 1 I partially disagree. I think there are definitely celeb teams out there like SGPD, VCU, Sher Foundation, DRP, Empire. These are teams that people love to see, "omg DRP is up next they're gonna be hype". They have fans who have never met them and have no affiliation, but cheer for them and talk about them. They are teams that newbies in bhangra, people not "in the circuit" and non-dancers know of. Basically, they have fans from the non-BTF crowd!!

However, the are just way more teams, and yeah they aren't treated that much differently and they don't act too different like maybe KJ back in the day. Celeb status just doesn't mean as much anymore? Like I do see what you were saying about they're not the center of attention anymore. I can see this as a good thing and a bad thing. Good for new and developing teams and good to keep bhangra field fair, keep everyone else motivated. but bad in that they should get status for what they do I mean these teams have talent and they worked HARD for their achievements - they should be rewarded and respected as so. They do deserve a swagger and somewhat of an ego. Bad at wording all this... but hope i make some sense!

On Point 2, I agree about judging but I think it's also partially that teams (esp college) you never know what they're gonna bring. Teams change, develop, evolve. An average team can come out with one amazing routine. And all it takes is 8 hot minutes to win...

Lets take SGPD for example; im sure at comps they're not just chilling with teams that they feel are as good as them. Im sure they make an effort to interact with smaller, newer, unestablished teams. We are all peers. Its like school.

That is exactly how it is. I was just at Groundshaker, on a baby new unestablished team, and we were treated as equal... which was weird in a way b/c we're thinkin heyy we're just newbies.. we came to experience it and perform. These other guys came to compete and win - but SGPD, PANJ, PPA, Shan-E these veteran teams w. veteran dancers (and organizers) made effort to talk to us, treated us just like everyone else... It was sort of like school! Haha

If I wasn't so in awe of being backstage around these guys (yeah, I was in awe :-[ ) then I would have felt my team was just the same as every other team- though my team isn't. Again partially this is good and partially this is a bad thing.

Holy shit, have I really been away for this long? Mariam actually kinda sorta makes sense... damn... so maybe there is some hope for Parul too....

 

[Meistro]

I guess its just me then, because all of these "celebrity teams" that you guys are mentioning, I see them as peers. In the end, we are all students of the artform. We are all performing the same jhummar, dhamaal, etc. It all boils down to commitment and dedication and desire to learn. We're all in the same game here. Mariam, you're right, I do get excited when its time for VCU, AVA, Heeray, to go up and perform, but do I see them as celebrity teams? Not at all. But I definitely respect what they do and how they display and preserve the artform. Then again, i guess theres a few different perspectives from which to look at this. If you're a new dancer on a rookie team, Im sure its natural to get crazy and in awe when you're seeing teams like SGPD. I used to get like that when I first started dancing. With experience that all dies down and you realize that they are at no higher level than you are. Then you reach a point to where you're just like "sweet, my friends, peers, colleagues, etc. are performing"! Thats when I dont feel there is such a thing as celebrity status. Just my opinion though.

 

[Meistro]

What I mean by everyone (ok maybe not EVERYONE) being at the same skill level is that, there is almost no difference between lets say, someone from Surrey India or Nachdi Jawani and ummmm PPA in terms of skill. How long has siac or Nj been around? How long have their dancers been around? For a hell of a long time. PPA just started in the fall of 2006. So you see what I mean? Sure, some teams might be better than others because of stage experience and team chemistry, but in general, dancers are pretty much at the same level. There is no obvious extreme like, "oh that guy SUCKS, and that guy is AMAZING!". Bhangra is much more team oriented now than it was before. I remember when we used to be like "Oh look at Raju and Jasmine from MBT or Sunny English and PJ from KJ or so and so from VIBE". I think teams are doing a better job of getting everyone up to par. There is no doubt that some there are dancers better than other. You almost made me sound like I said EVERYONE is at the exact same skill level. Thats untrue.

 

[Vick]

I agree with Meistro... There are no celebrity teams anymore... I remember when I first saw KJ holding their first place Bruin trophy a long time ago, my jaw hit the floor because I was in awe... That shit aint there no more... I respect the talent that everyone has, but I dont really hold teams up on a pedestal anymore...

 

[Pooja]

If you look at the "top teams" out there, one thing you find in common is there performance level is higher than all the other teams and their dancers are better too.

I have to disagree with you on this statement.

Firstly, "performance level" is a very vague notion...I take it that you meant energy/style/grace/presence/etc...but even the top teams don't have all of those things and some are considered "top teams" for one reason over another. There are very few that have it all.

Secondly, I would not classify individual dancers as better just because the team is a "top team." There are some not so "top teams" that are merely classified as such because in their entirety, the team is not all that great, BUT that same team can have some AMAZING dancers as individuals. And such is true for the other end as well, the "top team" might be amazing in itself...but have one or two so-so dancers as compared to others.

What I mean really is that having an amazing team doesn't necessarily mean your dancers are better. It means you dance together as a team better, but there are great dancers on every team...."top" or "not."

Maybe it's a question of what do you mean by "better?" Better at "bhangra?" Or, better at "dancing?"

 

[Jeeti]

I agree with Meistro completely when he said that eventually there are no celebrity teams or dancers...etc...

It all depends on the maturity of the dancer...those with more experience tend not to really give a damn about celebrity teams, and good performances...etc...rather they want to improve if possible, learn more and especially teach for those more experienced...e.g. I'm personally not gona go to a comp and compare dancers across teams and say well I think shaan is a better dance than temur...doesn't make sense...

The notion of who is a "better" dancer just seems silly...I don't know hahhaa..you are a team when you get on stage, and you are a team when you get off stage...some dancers are more experienced than others and this causes for an apples to oranges comparison...you aren't better dancers, just more experienced, who have learned more, etc..of course there is some natural ability but it mainly comes down to experience...just my two cents.."celebrity teams" are just teams that are hot on the circuit at that particular time...KJ just managed to do that for longer than anyone else.

 

[Nikhil]

I really think that THIS time period is the Golden Age of bhangra. How can you all think that when celebrity teams were predominantly the talk of the competition as opposed to the competition as a whole, was Golden? This generation was just beginning to transition into team dynamic and creativity. 2005 was, in my opinion, the most exciting year of bhangra as a whole, because there were so many things to learn, and there were so many people learning at the same time! BUT we had yet to discover what bhangra's roots were, differences in boliyaan or styles, how intricate vaardiyaan were...so how could a developmental/transitional year be deemed as the highest or "Golden" before its peak?

We should consider RIGHT NOW the Golden age because of the level of skill becoming equal or attainable across the board, country to county, team to team. We should realize that because of the availability of knowledge and the advancement of resources, everyone is getting better, and everyone is making these the years of heightened expectation, for the artform as a whole. Meistro is 100% right, but to extend his sentiments, I really feel that right now is what we need to admire. Vick said that the scene is becoming bland. No way bro! Everyone is becoming more competitive. The fact that there are disputes about judging means that its becoming harder to tell who is better, meaning teams are performing bhangra equally well.

 

[ambarishraja]

I really think that THIS time period is the Golden Age of bhangra. How can you all think that when celebrity teams were predominantly the talk of the competition as opposed to the competition as a whole, was Golden? This generation was just beginning to transition into team dynamic and creativity. 2005 was, in my opinion, the most exciting year of bhangra as a whole, because there were so many things to learn, and there were so many people learning at the same time! BUT we had yet to discover what bhangra's roots were, differences in boliyaan or styles, how intricate vaardiyaan were...so how could a developmental/transitional year be deemed as the highest or "Golden" before its peak?

We should consider RIGHT NOW the Golden age because of the level of skill becoming equal or attainable across the board, country to county, team to team. We should realize that because of the availability of knowledge and the advancement of resources, everyone is getting better, and everyone is making these the years of heightened expectation, for the artform as a whole. Meistro is 100% right, but to extend his sentiments, I really feel that right now is what we need to admire. Vick said that the scene is becoming bland. No way bro! Everyone is becoming more competitive. The fact that there are disputes about judging means that its becoming harder to tell who is better, meaning teams are performing bhangra equally well.

Couldn't agree more with that Nikhil...well said.

 

[Saleem]

The fact that there are disputes about judging means that its becoming harder to tell who is better, meaning teams are performing bhangra equally well.

Mostly agreed except this last statement. There have been judging fiascos for yeaaars.

Also I think bhangra's 'golden age' for outsiders and community impact was yes in 2005-2006, where the style was more extravagant and favorable for outsiders. As we've trended to become more traditional (even as everyone has upped their game), I've found less outsiders enamored by bhangra (to some of them, all the traditional routines look the same...)

The golden age for bhangra itself, though, is now, as Nikhil said.

 

[Jeeti]

Saleem and Nikhil...welll said.

 

[mafzal]

The fact that there are disputes about judging means that its becoming harder to tell who is better, meaning teams are performing bhangra equally well.

Also I think bhangra's 'golden age' for outsiders and community impact was yes in 2005-2006, where the style was more extravagant and favorable for outsiders. As we've trended to become more traditional (even as everyone has upped their game), I've found less outsiders enamored by bhangra (to some of them, all the traditional routines look the same...)

Very agreed... Routines all look the same to newbies and outsiders now. School teams having jodis and everything now they're all losing their school spirit, which is a gimmick somewhat, and all gimmicks (in the classic sense) dying out, and no more stunts--I'm sure we could push the envelope a lot harder on stunts if that was still "in". Yeah some of us stick our noses up at that stuff but it was ENTERTAINING.

The only two big comps I've been to our Fusion and Groundshaker so I will only speak of those. Lemme see if I can do this: Fusion a pretty modern comp, right? You saw we had SGPD with the jabbawockeez, msu girls with a skit, duniya all stars bring lil kids, etc this past year. Then we have Groundshaker with 3 live teams in a row, and Sarabjit Cheema judging you know it's gonna be pretty traditional. Only bhangra heads are gonna like Groundshaker better. But there is a huge variety of crowd at bhangra fusion. Not sure where I'm going with this umm but hopefully someone can take it from here

Anyway on the upside to this new era or whatever we're calling 07 and beyond, everything has gotten more traditional and we're bridging gaps between Indian bhangra and North American. I bet new dancers on teams now know a heck of a lot more than new dancers on teams three years ago (collegiate at least). Our girls are learning "jhummar", "dhamaal", sial kothi, "jugni", "mirza"... they don't just put on shiny costumes and do a routine - they put on vardi. Again I feel a huge part of this is because of recent phenomena like youtube and BTF... but I feel like this year's newbies on college teams will learn an art form, they will learn bhangra, not just a routine or a dance. And the pressure is on new teams to be legit you gotta know what you're talking about, you gotta dress properly, you gotta put together a routine properly...

It's not that people can't appreciate live teams, tell traditional routines apart, etc. it's just that it takes time to develop up to that. And most people have gotta start somewhere. I show newbies old vids (KJ and LBC) first. Then more recent teams that are crowd faves like Empire. Thennnn I will start showing Indian and live teams. This applies to Punjabis and non-Punjabis alike. It's like appreciating opera (or not LOL) but you know what I mean. Hopefully bhangra can stay creative and entertaining while being true to its roots and maintaining "traditionality". Which goes back to that whole discussion about modern v. trad where I believe we came to the conclusion that teams like VCU & SGPD have found a balance that we're all leaning towards?

Note: I mention SGPD and VCU a lot. Wow.

I hope somebody can take some part of this and make proper thesis out of it cuz I just wrote a buncha thoughts. Sorry haha

 

[Danny]

i kinda miss the old days.....seemed like there were less restrictions, it was an art not an anatomy, there wasnt a proper way way to do anything so it was all fun and games.......now people/teams get bashed for the littlest of things

and it was all about entertainment back then with sick gimmicks/stunts/etc etc etc nowadays every team does the same jhummar segment as every other team except to a different song

also uniforms and vaardiyan repped school colors and what not, there was originalty and you could distinguish teams apart from others with ONE color representing the team as a whole....nowadays teams go through mutli colored uniforms every comp......i mean this might be a bad example: but when was the last time you saw the Lakers or the Celtics change their stripes?

anyways, just my 2 pesos

 

[mafzal]

About watching dancers on video:

I COMPLETELY BACK YOU UP ON THAT. When you videotape someone, you lose 10% of what they gave you live, then when you put it on a computer you lose 10% more, and uploading it to YouTube brings the performance down 10% more. So when we're watching dancers on the internet you're seeing it all fuzzled down to like 70% of how amazing it really was. First of all, you lose expression like noooo other. I've seen teams from 3rd row in an auditorium it's the most amazing thing ever. Then seeing it the very next day on youtube is totally different. You lose seeing the energy too, nobody ever looks as ALL-OUT on Youtube as they did in real life! And it all looks slower in some odd way.

Not even youtube, just videotaping it even brings it down somewhat.

So yeah can't go on about that enough because it's something I've thought before on my own, too. I gotttttaaaaaa go see it live!!

 

[Vic]

To add on to what Saleem and Mariam said.

I think we should look at it in a different way. I think the "golden age" for modern bhangra was the KJ/Sher era. The "Golden age" for more traditional bhangra is the era we're in right now. A lot of teams are going live because this is the time to. So ten years down the road when we've hit 2 other era's of modern bhangra, we can look back and compare all the MODERN bhangra era's to eachother, and then chose a "Golden age for Modern bhangra". And the same goes for traditional bhangra.

As for celeberty status. I think it all depends on the person. If you feel that someone is of that status and you treat them like they are, its totally up to you. But i dont think its neccesary at all. Its exactly like meistro said, we dont make friends based on how well they dance, we make friends because we're all interested in the same thing.

SGPD talks a lot..? Vick what is that suppose to mean?

It means that you guys tend to vent your frustrations more publicly compared to the KJ boys... Not just frustrations, but achievements too... Cocky but not really that cocky... I dont have the right words to describe your team yet... haha...

Vick let me know when u figure it out. LOL

As for watching video's.... I think we look better in videos! ahahah might be odd but yeah.

 

[mafzal]

i kinda miss the old days.....seemed like there were less restrictions, it was an art not an anatomy, there wasnt a proper way way to do anything so it was all fun and games.......now people/teams get bashed for the littlest of things

and it was all about entertainment back then with sick gimmicks/stunts/etc etc etc nowadays every team does the same jhummar segment as every other team except to a different song

also uniforms and vaardiyan repped school colors and what not, there was originalty and you could distinguish teams apart from others with ONE color representing the team as a whole....nowadays teams go through mutli colored uniforms every comp......i mean this might be a bad example: but when was the last time you saw the Lakers or the Celtics change their stripes?

I've thought this before, too. But I also started realizing that a lot of the old moves and routines when you watch 'em they look a lot alike, too, seeing the same moves over and over if you take "traditional" moves (my base for this would be live, Indian team moves) there is a lot more variety i.e. nowadays a team using katos, mirza segment, jugni, phumniyan, etc. is actually a lot more interesting and creative to me. They can be made creative and unique in the way you do 'em - yeahh there is no right or wrong way to do phumniyan or 16-step! And the old routines or the old college routines like 04-05 and whatnot look sloppy compared to the stuff in 08. And the costumes look tacky.

I do agree on seeing the same segments and same order (I'm sorry but can somebody pleeease NOT do 1. Sapp segment, 2. Khunde, 3. Kato segment, 4. Jhummar order?!?!?! lol) and even further, half the time its the same songs! No offense I listen to Idols B2B mix everyday but I have already heard and seen every single song from that used over and over and over for like two yearsss now) Shout out to DRP half their DDA (?) mix was unique remixes, old school tracks, fresh stuff to me.

Jodis are tight because the color effects in formations is awesome. But what I wanna see is school spirit blended into '08+ traditional style spirit.
Example: University of Michigan is Maize & Blue:
- Navy/Baby Yellow
- Yellow/Baby blue
- Royal Blue/White
- Gold/White

Okay it'd be easier if your school had like 3 colors but I hope you get the idea. You get what I mean...

So basically this new era of bhangra COULD BE THE NEW GOLDEN AGE IF THAT'S WHAT WE MAKE IT

 

[Saleem]

Agreed with Danny, a lot of times I miss the days of more freestyle/art rather than set moves and structure. ::shrug:: even to me, sometimes I see a couple 'average' traditional teams and I honestly cannot get through the routine without fastforwarding a couple parts. You need to excel at it to sell it on video. Watching it live is a little better.

When you videotape someone, you lose 10% of what they gave you live, then when you put it on a computer you lose 10% more, and uploading it to YouTube brings the performance down 10% more. So when we're watching dancers on the internet you're seeing it all fuzzled down to like 70% of how amazing it really was.

I think Mariam means 100% x 0.9003= 72.9% of the original

 

[Vick]

I dont think this is the Golden Age... I cant say that I enjoy bhangra as much today as I did 3-4 years ago... That could be because bhangra today is so focused on being traditional, whereas back in the days the modern flare always gave the audience something to look forward to... These days, one traditional team looks more or less like another... As much as I've shit talked about SGPD, I enjoy their style and their ability to bust out the modern stuff, thank god for their existence...

 

[mafzal]

Agreed with Danny, a lot of times I miss the days of more freestyle/art rather than set moves and structure. ::shrug:: even to me, sometimes I see a couple 'average' traditional teams and I honestly cannot get through the routine without fastforwarding a couple parts. You need to excel at it to sell it on video. Watching it live is a little better.

When you videotape someone, you lose 10% of what they gave you live, then when you put it on a computer you lose 10% more, and uploading it to YouTube brings the performance down 10% more. So when we're watching dancers on the internet you're seeing it all fuzzled down to like 70% of how amazing it really was.

I think Mariam means 100% x 0.9003= 72.9% of the original

Depends on size of the video file, bitrate, quality of DVR tape, lighting, mpixels per squ. inch, your bandwidth, etc.

 

[ban3rg]

when bhangra goes even more international, and it will, only a matter of time, then we will witness a massive golden age of bhangra.

imagine our children competing with teams in UK, Singapore, Australia, South Africa, Fiji, whatever - when it's all more global and we actually care about bhangra in countries other than US, CA, and India, then everything's gonna go nuts.

when other international teams get good enough and when we have like a World Championship of Bhangra that's when we'll be like, "OK, this is some serious shit. Golden age right here"