Religious fanaticism or Pure devotion?

[Summy]

Interesting story in the Chicago Tribune, Eva Mehta, a 17-year old from Evanston, set a local record by fasting for over a month:

At times, the 17-year-old was so weak and nauseated that her parents had to use a wheelchair to bring her from their van to their Jain temple in Bartlett. When the hunger pains hit hard, she would pinch her ears. But she kept up her fast, even when she went to bed hungry and dreamed of food.
?I would just say in my mind, ?No, it?s not real. I just won?t eat it. I?m not going to eat this until I?m done fasting,? ? she said. So she was fasting, even in her dreams.

How did she do it?

?I always tried to keep my mind, just pray to my god every day,? Mehta said recently, appearing happy and relaxed. ?I would pray, just help me get rid of this feeling. I always pinch my ear and pray whenever I?m hungry.?

Her fast ended Sept. 3 after 34 days. By then the 5-foot-4 teen had lost 33 pounds, her weight dropping to 119.

Chicago-area Jains rejoiced at her feat. Members of the ancient Indian religion fast every year in honor of the festival of Paryushan Parva. They regard fasting as a spiritual discipline, a way to remove bad karma and bring blessings to a person strong enough to survive for days or weeks on nothing but water.

Dating to as early as the 7th Century B.C., Jainism teaches a path to enlightenment through a life founded on nonviolence to all creatures. Jains represent less than 1 percent of the Indian population. Many faiths have ascetic traditions that embrace fasting, but few carry it to such lengths as the Jains. In some cases, Jains practice santhara, or fasting until death, in order to free the soul from its sins. Fasts are often held during the festival of Paryushan Parva, which is celebrated by the two major sects of Jains: the Swetambaras and Digambaras, members of whom fasted through Sunday?When the fast ends, Jains ask for forgiveness for any violence or wrong they may have done in the past year.

Eva has been preparing herself for this feat, for years: Mehta has been fasting for her faith from the time she was 13. She started with a three-day fast and increased the days of fasting each year, until this year when she insisted she would go a month. Her parents were of mixed minds. Her father, Subhash, had no doubt she could do it, but her mother, Smita, was hesitant.?I worried about her health,? her mother said. ?I finally said, ?If you?re going to be sick, we don?t want [you to fast] anymore. Next day, you can use the food. Don?t do the fasting.? Well, she was OK.?
This bit has riled some of the commenters under the news article, who think it is proof that Eva?s fasting was tantamount to neglect or abuse:

She skipped the first week of school at Evanston Township High School. Although he is proud of his daughter, her dad said she will not attempt such a feat next year. ?One-day, two-day, three-day fast?that?s all,? he said. ?I don?t want her to miss school.?

Unlike other islam for example who allow eating after sundown in Ramadan, Jains are only allowed to drink water after sundown.

Religious fanaticism or religious devotion? You decide.

 

[Jeeti]

Religious fanaticism.

Although the feat is incredible, it seems silly that devotion should impinge on health? Health (Life) is the ultimate gift...regardless of religious background...this can hardly be argued...there are other ways to show such sheer devotion than to endanger your health...she may be healthy now but i guarantee such long term fasting will have long term effects on her health.

 

[sulmoney]

Religious fanaticism.

Although the feat is incredible, it seems silly that devotion should impinge on health? Health (Life) is the ultimate gift...regardless of religious background...this can hardly be argued...there are other ways to show such sheer devotion than to endanger your health...she may be healthy now but i guarantee such long term fasting will have long term effects on her health.

agree and disagree. its a combination of both fanaticism and devotion. i am not sure what is the prescribed length of fasting (it seems to be a few days), but doing a month seems almost overkill. if she really felt that she had some serious sins to ask for forgiveness that necessitated 30+ days of fasting, then whatever lets her sleep at night. if she was doing it for the pure shock value of it (look at me, i fasted for 30+ days), then it just negates the whole thing. her motivations for doing it need to examined in this case before passing any sort of judgment on it.

 

[ban3rg]

We could go on forever if we debate how long is long enough to fast, and how long is too long. 10 days vs. 15 vs. 20 vs 30, etc etc, this could go on forever.

The fact is everyone feels very very hungry if they fast for more than 2 days, maybe 3. So to answer Summy's question of fanaticism or devotion, we just have to ask what the point of fasting is anyway.

Some may do it to prove to themselves that they have discipline/stamina/endurance/whatever you want to call it, and don't involve God with it. Most think of it as God giving them help or nourishment to pass this "trial."

I think it's devotion, whether you fast for 12 hours, 1 day, 1 week, etc. you are depriving yourself of something to prove (to yourself actually) that you hold something more dear or more important or more necessary than food itself, and that's God.

Then some might say, why do the two have to mutually exclusive? Why can't I pray and be devoted to God but be happy, satisfied, and well-fed at the same time? This is true, that's what I wanna know.

 

[Summy]

Wow, I am truly surprised of the reactions. First and foremost Sulman brother, why are you questioning her motives? It was written in the peice there that jains fast for Paryushan Parva. They fast for the reasons of spiritual discipline. Jainism is a religion based in mind over body, the transcendent over the material. If it was stated that jains see fasting as a way to remove bad karma, and to recieve blessings, why again are we questioning her motives? That is like if somebody questioned muslim motives for fasting during ramadan, or christians when they kept lent. There is nothing to be questioned, she did it for her religion.

Lets make one thing clear Sulman, if she is fasting to remove bad karms, it doesnt insinuate that she did something bad. A soul has karma, not the person. She is fasting to remove the soul's karma, the soul's previous bad deeds, maybe in another life. Fasting to remove bad karma, is a sacrifice for purity. She didnt do anything bad necessarily, I think you jumped the gun on that.

I think its amazing. I think devotion like this needs to be praised. Jeeti raised health issues. How many of us see people who smoke a pack a day in cigerettes as fanaticial or in the same light as eva mehta? Surely health risks are much higher for those people who smoke but we see it as a personal choice right? IF she chooses to harm her body (if you even see it that way, because I SURE as hell dont), people harm their body alot more, for less than admirable reasons, therefore, there is nothing wrong with the extent of what she is doing. Is it a bit much, should she be conscious of the dangers, yes, but is it something to be looked down upon, most defintely not.

Arjun, I think some people fast for its meaning, and significance more than to test/ prove themselves. Fasting has a meaning, the mandatory aspect of it comes down to how devout you are as a religious person. You asked why cant I pray and be well fed. In my humble opinion, praying is an act that shouldnt be looking upon as that pious. If you dont practice your religious duties and pray, it doesnt mean that your connection with your religion and its practices should be praised. The essentiality of fasting like I said comes down to how religiously inclined you are to follow your dharam and its tenents.

 

[Saleem]

There's a line between showing spiritual devotion and placing yourself in real risk of permanent bodily injury from such an intense starvation. I respect her religious beliefs and the devotion that went into her fast, but it becomes fanatical when you cross the line of stressing the body to 'cleanse' it, and taking it to full-stage starvation that could cause damage to internal organs.

 

[sulmoney]

wow i didnt even realize what i wrote haha, i was in between studying anatomy lectures and am fasting myself right now, so my mind is not 100% there. i apologize if i offended anyone with my response; jainism is a faith that i am not very familiar with (ok, not all familiar with), so i was just wondering what the significance or meaning of fasting in jainism is for. like, how long is the prescribed period of fasting, what does it entail, etc. from the article, it seemed like her father said that the norm was 1-3 days, so my reaction was what is the rationale of extending it 10x the recommended length? i know from my own life the role of fasting in islam, and many people do as it has become pretty common, but many people (as you said yourself summy, roughly 1% of the indian population are jain) do not know much about it. i think from my own life i could count on one hand the number of jains i know. perhaps you could shine a bit of light on it?

 

[Jeeti]

If one believes that a Higher Power has created us and has created life then there should be absolutely no reason for jeopardizing the gift of health. Whether or not this will have serious adverse effects on her health in the long term, I can't say, of course Summy you don't seem to think so, but aren't there plenty of other ways to show such devotion? Why choose a route potentially harmful? Once again, I will go back to a discussion that has already been discussed, it all comes to each their own significance in the practices that they decide to choose, but, in my opinion...I think this is a potentially harmful and there are alternate routes to devotion...

who are we to comment on others devotion or significance of an act? Similar to the argument over the kara, to each their own...but if you evaluate this from a sensible perspective...my question is..

How is harming oneself an exercise in devotion? Is this what our Creator considers devotion...self harm? (please do not be offended by my choice of words...nutrition is necessary for survival therefore not eating is doing harm to oneself) The only thing I will say is I'm sure her fasting is a rather humbling experience but other than that I can't see it...

thoughts.

 

[Summy]

Saleem, Bhagat Singh was probably a bit fanatical too eh? How about Gandhi? Not comparing these people and Eva Mehta, but they all did go through extreme examples of fasting.

Sulman,

Jainism is a dharmic religions, so its basic tenents are very similar to other dharmic religions. First and foremost Jains believe in the essential power of the soul. Like other dharmic religions, they believe in souls, karma, reincarnation and spirituality over rituals. Like the 10 gurus in Sikhism, the jains believe in 24 jinas, which are like Guru's, that go back hundreds of years B.C. . Like all dharmics, their 'goal' is the salvation of the soul to godhead. Meaning, the person in every life is essentially in control of their soul's current karma. The beautiful thing about jains is that they are strict, REALLY REALLY strict about the equality of life, in every form. Meaning from humans to little small insects, EQUALITY in its most STRICT sense is followed here.

God in jainism from what I understand is more of an energy, but not supreme. Meaning, the theme of equality is passed on here. They believe that each soul and its dharma/ consciousness has the ability to be divine. Having the infinte spiritual knowledge we assoicate with god. That probably what be achieved in the materalistic world (they believe in yug's as well), but they believe that with spirtual connectedness these can be achieve once the soul leave's the physical realm.

Another main tenents of Jainism is to get away from materialism. Because jains believe in the spiritual nature of soul, materialism is very harmful. Just because you own materials, meaning a car, or a house, or nice clothes, doesnt imply materialism, but the obsession to those materials is what is harmful, not the act of owning. Each jain has an obligation to education and to get into the rightful path. It is one of theire essential rights.

Jains are very strict vegans, obviously, and usually devote their life to helping animals, and neglected forms of the soul. Any food shouldnt be accpeted in creulty though, meaning through theft, or through wrongful means, ingesting that food is harmful to the soul.

Jains are in centered and stem from India. They have a high amount of hindu symbolism in their religion, like demi gods praying to the orginal jinah, and use the swastika as a symbol for their dharam as well. Jainist theory can be seen in the Upanishads, and its influence can be seen in sikhism and buddhism, very heavily. Guru's talk about the jinas and their appreciation for their understanding of life beyong the physical world.

As said in the orginal post, fasting is important to jains for cleansing of the soul for bad karma, as it is essential to reach godhead. When one feels death is near, they may fast until death, showing its forever dedication to the soul's cleanliness.


Its a beautiful religion, and you will never find a disrespectful, or arrogant jain. Very down to earth, very nice, calm,friendly, and amazing people. Jains are true believers in the Dharmic theory and till this day, have never met a Jain that I dont admire.

 

[kinnell]

Devotion. And mad respect.

Even if you put your body at harm, that doesn't make it fanatical. Yes, it's risky, but whose to say that pure devotion isn't risky?

In the Bible, when God asked Abraham to kill his son Isaac, Abraham's devotion to God may have ended up with the sacrifice of his beloved son. It wouldn't have been seen as fanaticism, but devotion even if the action was risky. I realize that not everyone hears God's voice, but risky devotion is not always fanaticism.

Even in Hinduism, sages would fast themselves to gain more control over their body and their emotions. Even throughout history, great religious leaders have made sacrifices and many people have died because they would not convert to another religion. That's devotion, not fanaticism.

If someone put a gun to your head and asked you to convert to religion X. Would you do it? Yes, you can lie and say you would, but you have to be truthful to yourself. Would you be devoted to your faith till the end? Just thoughts.

Summy, I agree with you in your interpretation of Jainism. However, you are stereotyping jains by saying that you will never find a disrespectful/arrogant jain. I have plenty of Jain friends and yes, some of them are disrespectful, sometimes drunk, and sometimes cocky. I'm surprised that out of everyone, I find you stereotyping a religion.

 

[Jeeti]

I'm pretty sure Summy means actual Jains...that practice the religion..not born into a faith Jains...

 

[pluthra]

is some1 who is fasting really going to realize the impact that fasting has on their body??? i doubt it, because the reason for her fast was to so she could be one with god and her soul. If she is as devout as she seems and u place urself into her shoes, well when I do so, I don't think about the fact that I'm going to lose alot of weight and become sick, and miss school. She's obviously been preparing herself for years, its as if her soul really needs it. Plus, if she can fast for that long for her religion and feel like yes I have accomplished my goal of making my soul feel better and all, then I'm sure that in return (even though this expectation seems unreal) she might expect god to protect her and help her live a healthy life and let her soul be free of sin.

So, sure the health issues do come up. But seriously if one is that devout health issues are so going to be overlooked because its either shes fighting for (1) to reach a karmic state, and be one with her soul/god; or (2) worry about her health and personal issues. So, when one is faced with this condition then yeah it seems like pure devotion to me. And I dont think its fair to judge how strongly someone is attached to their religion, its their personal choice and they should execute it the way they want.

 

[ban3rg]

Not to open up a whole nother can of worms (what else is BTF for?) but perhaps it would be more useful to society if Eva committed to helping others rather than depriving herself. I know this sounds really snide and condescending, but what I'm trying to say is, "Which is a higher priority or a more devout action: public service or self-deprivation?" Which would "please" God more or be in more accordance with one's religion?

Of course, this isn't a mutually exclusive situation either - you can very well fast AND serve others simultaneously. That sounds really cool.

Undergoing penance is a selfish way to undo one's bad karma. Helping others and doing good deeds may be a more fruitful method for outweighing one's bad karma. If everyone spent the time that they reserve for praying on serving others, wow, what an effect that would have on our world.

Sure, praying is necessary, too, but to what extent? At what point does introspection and contemplation become excessive? Isn't it selfish to aim for one's own peace of mind instead of helping others? A truly selfless person would have little regard for oneself and devote all possible time/resources toward those less fortunate, no?

If you were to take an extreme utilitarian perspective, you could argue that every moment spent watching TV, daydreaming, chatting, going on BTF, resting, etc. could be better used serving the greater good. Where is the balance here? Isn't serving others 'til death or at every possible opportunity the holiest of all pursuits? Instead of fasting or praying shouldn't we focus our energy on helping those that can do neither (those too ill or hungry to willfully fast, and those too destitute and downtrodden that they've given up on praying?) Thoughts?

 

[kinnell]

I'm pretty sure Summy means actual Jains...that practice the religion..not born into a faith Jains...

That's quite a remark, Jeeti. There are many interpretations of every religion. If you do not follow every tenet of your religion, does that not make you a true follower? Some of my friends were born into Jainism, but follow Jainism as best as they can, go to temple and take part in leading YJA to help other Jain youth better understand the complexity of their religion.

Summy's comment about not finding an arrogant Jain or disrespectful Jain is a not a thought-out statement at all. What the religion preaches and how their followers actually are are two different concepts and it's unfair to disregard followers who may not follow their religion to the maximum intention.

There are JAINS that wear clothes over their mouths so they do not breathe AND kill smaller insects accidently. Yes, that's the interpretation of JAINISM that these devout followers intend to follow but is it fair to call the rest of the Jains, not Jains?

I realize I will OVERKILL this argument, but let me make my entire valid point. A few of the tenets of Christianity are loving your neighbor, not being jealous of his things..etc. Does that mean you will never find a jealous Christian? And if you do, does that mean he/she are not a real Christian?

 

[kinnell]

Not to open up a whole nother can of worms (what else is BTF for?) but perhaps it would be more useful to society if Eva committed to helping others rather than depriving herself. I know this sounds really snide and condescending, but what I'm trying to say is, "Which is a higher priority or a more devout action: public service or self-deprivation?" Which would "please" God more or be in more accordance with one's religion?

What would please God more? Do you know, Arjun? We apply our modern human morality and philosophy to what we think God would be more pleased with. I apologize - I should not be referring to God in this argument as I bring my own beliefs into this. I will be secular when making this argument.

What you're lacking, Arjun, is the realization that religions have their own goals and philosophies. Yes, helping others is a noble sacrifice, but if attaining moksha through penance is taught to be your religion's main goal, who are you to decide what is at a higher priority?

Of course, this isn't a mutually exclusive situation either - you can very well fast AND serve others simultaneously. That sounds really cool.

Undergoing penance is a selfish way to undo one's bad karma. Helping others and doing good deeds may be a more fruitful method for outweighing one's bad karma. If everyone spent the time that they reserve for praying on serving others, wow, what an effect that would have on our world.

Sure, praying is necessary, too, but to what extent? At what point does introspection and contemplation become excessive? Isn't it selfish to aim for one's own peace of mind instead of helping others? A truly selfless person would have little regard for oneself and devote all possible time/resources toward those less fortunate, no?

If you were to take an extreme utilitarian perspective, you could argue that every moment spent watching TV, daydreaming, chatting, going on BTF, resting, etc. could be better used serving the greater good. Where is the balance here? Isn't serving others 'til death or at every possible opportunity the holiest of all pursuits? Instead of fasting or praying shouldn't we focus our energy on helping those that can do neither (those too ill or hungry to willfully fast, and those too destitute and downtrodden that they've given up on praying?) Thoughts?

Arjun, during the time you spent writing this post, you could have been outside feeding the homeless and saving the world. Yet, you didn't. You selfish selfish selfish man. (Take my arguments lightly, I'm not attacking you). Yes, helping others is great, but I believe, it should not be the purpose of one's life. My belief (and I emphasize my perspective) is that one should learn to know themselves and master and be able to control themselves when needed. Fasting is a way to fight over-indulging yourself in earthly pleasures and learn to limit yourself.

Yes, I am biased in these arguments. My mom fasts twice a week (eats one meal for the entire day) and she's a working doctor, so it's no easy task. Every year, I fast for a week where I eat essentially only fruits for the whole week. After fasting, you appreciate food so much more to a degree most people will never realize.

 

[ban3rg]

I guess I have a flaw in my writing - I ask a lot of questions (notice the number of statements ending in a question mark vs. declarative statements) but don't really argue anything.

For example, asking "Shouldn't we just help people all the time and not watch TV?" is not the same as putting your foot down and claiming "We should always help ppl and not watch TV."

Anyway, good point Kinnell, I myself wrote that going on BTF was one thing that takes away time from helping others. I agree that I couldve been helping others, just like I could be doing that right now.

But at the end of my post I asked "Where is the balance." Clearly no one should be contemplating alllll the time, and no one should be shooting the breeze all time. What's the balance though? Are good thoughts good enough? Or do good deeds have to come into play too? (Notice Im just asking here, yet again Im not making a normative statement or anything)

 

[Summy]

Kinnell, you seem to have a problem with my statement of saying that you will never find a disrespectful jain.

Firstly, the difference between a practicing and non-practicing religious person needs to be realized here. Not assuming anoything about you, but for someone raised under biblical ideals in the west, it is hard to realize what practicing means. In dharmic religions, there is often a standard set for when assoication to a religion can be accepted. When on religious person is part of our religion, and with the onset of our current day values, the perversion of religion stems to even east.

Like I said before, a sikh is not a born sikh. The dominating theory before the perversion of religion in the east, was that one who dedicated his/her life and takes amrit, is known as a sikh. That person, at amrit, takes an oath to waheguru that they will live their life as a gursikh, within the tenents of Sikhism. See contrary, you can see examples, in christanity, judaism and islam of when one may become a member of their religion. They all believe acceptance of the religious text and the ruler as a necessary to desginate oneself as part of that religion. Accept the Bible and Jesus as your saviour etc....

In Hinduism, if we go BACK to what desginate's a hindu in Satya Yug or Treta Yug, it was one who followed dharmic tenents, and the vedic scriptures. One who did not eat meat, one who did do seva, one who did do etc... There are also examples of baptism in hinduism that are in the vedas that were practiced. Hinduism is a different ball game because it spreads through so long in time, that we have to rely on scripts.

Jainism is the same way. A jain is not born a jain, and who tries to practice it the best they can. There are distinct examples of what makes a jain. A jain MUST do many things, for example, MUST subscribe to 24 jinas, a jain MUST believe in the equality of all life, a jain MUST not eat meat amongst other things. You have friends that try all they want to be jains, but I can try all I want to be a white chick with blonde hair, but it might not happen.

There is a distinction is Jainism as a what a jain is, and what a followerer of jainism. The doctrine of Syadava, read it, it separates mere admirers, from followers. So you think it is unfair to differeniate those who dont follow religion to their "maximum" intention, I think that is distinctively westernized thinking. The beauty of dharmic religions is that it requires a leap of faith, it require devotion, something that may be lost in the world today, with biblical thought dominating the world today.

Those who follow jains, separate themselves from others is what I mean by my statement. They believe in the most strict form of equality, those who practice jainism, and not those who try to. Oh, by the way Kinnell, jainism understands the limitations of the physical body, they dont expect one not to kill small insects, it is the act of killing that is wrong. If jains walk around the world trying not to kill insects, its a perversion of Lord Rishaba Maharaj's thinking. He said it is not meant to deter one from everyday, it is the appreciation of the soul.

You seem to harp on the generalization of my statement. Yeah, there are people who may subscribe to jainism that are jerks, but your insinuation that those people are jains when they try to fulfill the tenents and dont do what is required to be known as a jain problematic and speaks to the influence of the bible and today's society.

 

[Amit]

I am actually Jain and my grandpa died by way of Santhara. Our entire village literally came to our doorstep and sat with him chanting and honoring him as he passed away, and my family is very proud of that.

To me, religions are very subjective in that none of us can argue what they should and should not mean to the individual. Instead, I'll offer my view of fasting.

As some people mentioned before, a core tenet of the religion is a resistant to materialism. When I fast (the most I've ever cared to do is a weekend) I like to think of it as re-grounding myself. By struggling a bit, I reaffirm my strength keep things in perspective. Most of my life I spend going from one thing to another, finding out how to get what I want, so a few times a year I fast and I find that it brings me back down to myself, so to speak.

In the end it's not about testing your faith/commitment to any Tirthankars. It's not about showing who is the "most Jain." The neatest thing about fasting is that it shows you how strong your spirit can be, and that is really empowering.

I certainly don't speak for all Jains, this is just my interpretation.

 

[ban3rg]

wow. that gives me goosebumps man. i can imagine that to be a really moving experience