Shooting Spree in Mumbai

[Jeeti]

Summy...I just want to clarify...you are supporting an Indian attack on Pakistan? It seems a bit too premature to go that far...It seems that the ball is in Pakistan's court so to speak, and with heavy international pressure and the current state of the country and its people...now is a better time than ever for Pakistanis to eradicate this kind of wrongdoing..and show the world what they are made of. I truly believe that after all Pakistan has been through, the majority of Pakistanis share Waleed's perspective. The last thing the region needs is Indian attacks on Pakistan...it seems foolish and will only make the situation worse...with some hard-line diplomacy, the situation can be resolved, and may even strengthen relations between Pakistan and India.

Moving on to something that is really confused/shocked me...

It appears that the terrorists involved have offered absolutely no demands, no terms, and are slaying innocent people without the slightest notion of a reason. It is one thing to kill in the name of a religion, but these terrorists did not even come out and say that, and on top of that, we aren't even sure if those who are assuming responsibility are even the group that did it. It is even now being speculated that some of the terrorists were British Nationals themselves? What are we dealing with here? This is scary as hell if you ask me...they killed a rabbi, his wife and children in cold blood...and I actually think that after all India has been through, their response to this attack has been sub-par....if this is what is to come from terrorist organizations in the future...some sort of global security measures are probably in order...

 

[Summy]

Jeeti, I think the responsibility for this escalation in violence is in everyones hand. The US because they turned seemingly ordinary good people, into people defending their faith and terrority, and they did it for no reason. It is the worlds fault because we isolate certain communities and refuse to provide incentives from them to weed out the people responisble for the attacks.

Think about the biggest international attacks in history. Pearl Harbor, for example, most attacks previously were done on military targets. But in todays day and age, we are attacking civilians. We are flying a plane full of innocents, into a building full of inoocents. We are going into innocent countries and killing the civiliations for no purpose.

What happens when all the "facts" come out? IF there is no increased pressure and people dont break the baracades that are stopping attacks from happening again, then its the "lets all just get along" speech that politicans have been throwing at us for decades. It is time for India and Pakistan to cooperate and stop this nonsense of killing people who just live their lives, but until both countries cannot be transparent, the violence is going to continue to escalate. You will see that what we saw two days ago, if our relations are keep the same, will be nothing compared to what happens in the days ahead.

 

[Vick]

Waleed you sound very sure that the Pakistan government doesn't have a hand in this... I think that notion is premature... You have to look at these attacks without any bias... I'm not saying for sure that Pakistan played a role in this, but as of right now, all fingers point that way... The world is probably hoping that Pakistan does not have a hand in this, but right now the situation looks dire... While I agree that most of Pakistan does not support these actions, that country is still loaded with thousands of people that laugh when such acts occur... I don't personally think Pakistani government has the power to clean up the terrorist organizations within the country... The U.S. probably wont go in and help them out either, the risk is far too great for U.S. troops in that Wazirastan region... India is more than willing to obliterate the terrorist camps, but thats a whole new story... The world needs to come together to help out Pakistan right now before this situation gets way out of control. The training camps in Pakistan are a threat to not only India, but all western countries... They should have never been allowed to develope/acquire nuclear weapons....

 

[faizan]

Waleed you sound very sure that the Pakistan government doesn't have a hand in this... I think that notion is premature... You have to look at these attacks without any bias... I'm not saying for sure that Pakistan played a role in this, but as of right now, all fingers point that way... The world is probably hoping that Pakistan does not have a hand in this, but right now the situation looks dire... While I agree that most of Pakistan does not support these actions, that country is still loaded with thousands of people that laugh when such acts occur... I don't personally think Pakistani government has the power to clean up the terrorist organizations within the country... The U.S. probably wont go in and help them out either, the risk is far too great for U.S. troops in that Wazirastan region... India is more than willing to obliterate the terrorist camps, but thats a whole new story... The world needs to come together to help out Pakistan right now before this situation gets way out of control. The training camps in Pakistan are a threat to not only India, but all western countries... They should have never been allowed to develope/acquire nuclear weapons....

"all fingers point that way" which fingers? Show me three credible fingers...

"that country is still loaded with thousands of people that laugh when such acts occur" As is the case in India when things happen in Pakistan.

India is more than willing to obliterate the terrorist camps, but thats a whole new story... India is having trouble obliterating its own problems in the North East, do not make it seem like India has a firm grasp on all its insurgencies.

"They should have never been allowed to develope/acquire nuclear weapons"...Vick your anti-Pakistan stance is obvious and clear, you are a step up from Summy my friend. There is a point when being blunt about Bhangra, and being blunt about Politics diverges. You need more than a superficial understanding of International politics to draw conclusions as strong as "They should have never been allowed to develope/acquire nuclear weapons".

Stick to badgering bhangra teams man.

I await your insulting, and incoherent response

 

[Kamran786]

As for the statement saying that Pakistan should have never been able to acquire nuclear weapons, that is not true.

This wasn't the Pakistani government launching a Nuclear attack on Mumbai so I don't see how that connects. It was a bunch of militants who attacked Mumbai. Pakistan has the right to bear nuclear weapons. Is it me or do people only have a problem with 'Communist' countries and 'Muslim' countries having nuclear weapons?

Like I said, its not the Pakistani government carrying this out. It is a select group of people. Now if Pakistan has a hand in this financially, I don't think we can pin point it at the government. Besides, if it really was the government behind all of these attacks I think some country would initiate the idea of an attack on Pakistan. And I don't just mean 'We may have to bomb Pakistan in the future', but more like 'Pakistan is a terrorist nation,we are going to bomb it' sort of idea.

Even if there was a hunch about the Pakistani government being involved in these terrorist attacks I think a country like the U.S. would hop on and keep pushing the fact. I mean we did Bomb Iraq for some 'hunch' that they had WMDs when they didn't have them.

 

[Varun]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world/asia/29intel.html?hp

U.S. finds mounting evidence that leads Pakistan-based terrorist cell L-e-T to have a hand in this. At the same time, it seems that the Pakistani government is being cooperative with India to help out.

I think the problem we are seeing here is not that many Indians believe that ISI or the Pakistani government funds/supports terrorist groups but that they indirectly help them a lot by giving them a lax breeding ground to operate from. People will only stop giving Pakistan flack only if the govt begins to crack down largely on the terrorist groups in their own nation, as they have targetted Pakistanis as well (Marriot Hotel Attacks)

 

[Summy]

Faizan, that back handed insult to me was not appreciated. The fact is that you are extremely defensive about pakistan and their involvement which begs the question in a time like this who has the balls to be nationalistic? Its like, the majority of pakistanis I talk to, they say to me, if Pakistan has any involvement, those people to be shot dead, and should be punished to the highest degree. But when I read your comments of saying that India has their own problems, and not even acknloweding the most likeli probablity that Pakistan was involved shows how much credibility you have to this issue/

I have never heard to talk about politics or anything of minor importance before I cannot gage your understanding, but your posts have spoke volumes. When the "facts" come out, I guess at that time you will have you swallow your own words. Had it been India in a cross border attack and funding these types of groups, I would have been outraged like most pakistanis are at the thought that their money funds these people, however it seems like the flag is more important to you than the values it may stand for. Perhaps thats the problem.

Pakistani extremists their interests in such an attack is huge. India's economy is booming. Tourism is booming. They know there will be internal stuggles after this with the intelligence and the rioting. There are so many reasons in which pakistani loyalists can benefit from such choas.

Pakistan has the same right as india to develope their country nuclearly, but with their unstability, they must be baby sat and made sure their country is not allowing terrorist and extremists any ability to access intelligence or the use of the weapons.

Man oh man, for all the reactions I heard, being defensive Faizan, thats pretty ignorant dont you think. Dont point the finger at me, look at yourself first.

P.S.- Dont get things twisted, there is a huge interest that US has in Pakistan. If there wasnt two debilating wars in iraq and afghanistan, the US would be onboard for any operation militarily or politically against pakistan. Pakistan is holding key terror members and the US would like nothing more than to capture those for economic any social reasons.

The last thing I want is a military strike, but obviously if Pakistan doesnt cooperate and arent willing to stop their itnerests then I guess they will force the hand, which again I dont support at all.

 

[faizan]

summy, i have not forgotten your openly racist, anti-muslim stance from POL...thus I refuse to respond to you or anyone as bigoted as you...you try to paint yourself as a reinvented rationalist, but I know who you are deep inside...i don't debate culturally sensitive issues with bigots...sorry, try someone who has the patience.

 

[Vick]

Faizan,

1) 3 credible fingers? How about the whole world buddy? Get pissed all you want, I stated the facts... It's hard to hear things about your nation, and I understand that...

2) I'm not here to create chaos between people from India and those from Pakistan.... People of the world know where both countries stand when it comes to terrorism... I don't want to start world war 3 on this forum by stating even more facts... I have nothing against the people of Pakistan, infact I have many friends from that part of the world... I do hold the Pakistani government responsible for certain things... You are an idiot if you think I hate Pakistan or something...

3) I dont think Iran or North Korea should have nuclear weapons either... I dont believe that countries with unstable leadership should be given such destructive power... The way Pakistan is headed down hill right now, you can only hope those weapons are well protected... I do wish that some day India and Pakistan find some common ground, but those days are far away...

4) Faizan grow up and live in the real world... Blindly supporting a nation is the worst thing a person can do... I'm critical of the United States all the time, and I expect the Pakistani people to expect more from their government... Any educated man right now would see the obvious problems that Pakistan faces... Just because I stated them doesn't make me Anti-Pakistan, thats the kind of statement uneducated people make...

 

[faizan]

Faizan,

1) 3 credible fingers? How about the whole world buddy? Get pissed all you want, I stated the facts... It's hard to hear things about your nation, and I understand that... (wrong answer)

2) I'm not here to create chaos between people from India and those from Pakistan.... People of the world know where both countries stand when it comes to terrorism... I don't want to start world war 3 on this forum by stating even more facts... I have nothing against the people of Pakistan, infact I have many friends from that part of the world... I do hold the Pakistani government responsible for certain things... You are an idiot if you think I hate Pakistan or something... (next time try not make it seem like you do, take a minute a go back and read your posts)

3) I dont think Iran or North Korea should have nuclear weapons either... I dont believe that countries with unstable leadership should be given such destructive power... The way Pakistan is headed down hill right now, you can only hope those weapons are well protected... I do wish that some day India and Pakistan find some common ground, but those days are far away...(there is plenty of common ground between the countries, even on terrorism...just read the statements of Pakistani leadership post-incident)

4) Faizan grow up and live in the real world... Blindly supporting a nation is the worst thing a person can do... I'm critical of the United States all the time, and I expect the Pakistani people to expect more from their government... Any educated man right now would see the obvious problems that Pakistan faces... Just because I stated them doesn't make me Anti-Pakistan, thats the kind of statement uneducated people make...(i am not in denial, i am more critical of Pakistan than most people I know...I am in no way blindly supporting Pakistan...please go back and read what I said...I said we should wait to see who is responsible before drawing ignorant conclusions)...Pakistan could 100 percent be responsible for this, I don't doubt it...but I also have not seen any real evidence to support any of it...

Or maybe I am just uneducated...

 

[Tuckerrrr]

By the way, both India and Pakistan acquired nukes illegally according to International Law. This act cannot be attributed to a country in my opinion. If Pakistan wanted to attack India, they would've done a much better job of it...not via some AK 47's and grenades. As Jeeti said, this is an opportunity for better relations. A Pakistani general is going to India to help with anti-terrorism for the first time in history.

Stop blaming nations or states...this is the act of idiot fundamentalists...we can't jump to conclusions; for all we know it could be Hindu fundamentalists...remember post-1984, when BBC reported their findings many years later that so called "Sikh terrorists" were actually Hindu fundamentalists disguised as Sikhs to cause trouble and to discredit their honorable identity.

Those who kill innocent people cannot really call themselves members of any major religion I've learned about. If you are a fundamentalist--whether it be Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian, Jew, Buddist, anything--killing innocent civilians is directly against the very fundamentals of that faith.

 

[Summy]

summy, i have not forgotten your openly racist, anti-muslim stance from POL...thus I refuse to respond to you or anyone as bigoted as you...you try to paint yourself as a reinvented rationalist, but I know who you are deep inside...i don't debate culturally sensitive issues with bigots...sorry, try someone who has the patience.

haha boo hoo. Get a wet nap nobody cares about your feelings haha. I wouldnt respond to me as well, especially when what you charish in life and your comments give you not a leg to stand on in such debates. I havent forgotten the stupid shit that has come out of your mouth, and the dumb childish stuff you have done as well. You now when the pig rolls in the mud, its hard to call other pigs dirty. I would stick to dancing my friend, well played.

Its funny to see him get defensive, this is entertaining. Delusion is fun for some people, its how they base their opinions. When the "facts come out" as Faizan is so anxiously waiting for, we will see where his responses will go. You dont have patience? Haha, you have no choice.

I would bet my life that Faizan will not respond once to once the assoications are clrearly drawn out. Your calling ME a bigot? Haha. Dont think I forgot that nationalistic bullshit you spat out on POL.

Do me a favour Faizan, go to the google news section, type in Pakistan, and tell me how much you spent on your depends adult diapers.

 

[Sher Foundation]

I think everyone needs to stop blaming pakistan in its entirety for the actions of the terrorists. It really is sad when a country gets blamed for the actions of a few idiots. Although there is scattered evidence that shows that pakistani government has harbored terrorists knowingly in the past, at the end of the day, Faizan is just reacting as most of us would for our country in similar situations (defensively). As unstable as Pakistan's government might currently be, the government has heavily condemned this attack and has made effort to help out the indian government. I was on facebook and Chris from boston had an interesting link up which i found quite interesting:

http://ishare.rediff.com/filevideo-Terrorists -speaks-id-519878.php

I dont know how much to believe it because the media was QUICK to jump on the guy's accent but still...

Pavan

 

[Vick]

Faizan, the post-incident comments made by the government are expected... Do you really come out and expect them to say, "Well done boys, our mission is accomplished?"... Do you really expect the government to come out and take responsibility for the attacks? They've had those statements ironed out for months...We still dont know for a fact who was behind all of this, we'll let the facts come out... And if it is Pakistan, I would love to hear how you explain this one...

 

[faizan]

again, if it is Pakistan, I would not be surprised, as I have already said...please do not try and hold me up to some witch hunt standard upon the showing of any evidence for or against Pakistan's involvement...people on this site need to read carefully the words of each other before continuing their misguided tirades.

 

[Summy]

I dont think anyone is blaming pakistan completely, because the majority of level headed pakistanis I have talked to actually feel horrible at the fact that innocent men women and chldren were gunned down, and massacared beyound recognition. Unlike Faizan, some people saw the horror in that much beyond country affilations. Each pakistani I have thought didnt cowardly throw responsibility of insult india in return after the country had their very foundation rocked. Those paksitanis who see themselves as humans before pakistanis wanted these bulplshit weeded out of their country.

The blame should be put on the relations of india and pakistani not sharing intelligence. The blame should be put on the government of pakistan for sponsoring such groups directly and indirectly. Nobody is trying to blame the people of paksitan, the culture of pakistan or anything like that. People who take it that way usually have little to no understanding of the wholistic appraoch to this situation.

We are all humans. All people want to bring attention to this problem of breeding terrorism in pakistan. And it that rocks nationalistic delusional people like Faizan, people need to take PRIDE in the fact that people like him were defensive. Those people are the type of people with the mentalities who put us in this situation.

 

[Arjun Barua]

Moderator's Note: Summy, Faizan, and Vick: If you have anything more to say to or about each other, please do so via private messages. There is much valuable and constructive discussion yet to be had on this topic, so please let that continue without the emotive arguments and bickering. Thank you.

 

[faizan]

I agree Arjun; I have said my piece.  Lets hope that Terrorism may be stomped out and that South-Asia grows and learns from this experience.  I continue to pray for Hindustan and Mumbai.

 

[Temurzai]

i dont have time to write much, ill gladly carry on a proper discussion at another time however my uncle is sindh information sec general. in effect in charge of sindh, pakistan. he was previously posted in Quetta, Balochistan. He is also I S I, he worked closely with Musharaf, and now with Zardari.

The I S I have a subgroup, the J I B, who knew jack shit bout this.

summy please refrain from scapegoating. whether funding is talebi, sindhi, kashmiri, balochi, freakin eskimonian, they didnt know. there is ALOT OF CORRUPTION in pakistan, but im telling you the I S I had jack shit for knowledge of this. it may very well be that they are coming THROUGH pakistan, because balochi n nwfp security is retardedly bad. again summy u know that taleb areas are out of control of the isi n government. if the m6s came thru russia thru panjshir thru afghanistan to nwfp to baloch and then thru sindh down the border to gujrat who knows. security is not as tight as you would think. u only have Kandahar, Peshawer, Quetta, a few tiny bandari towns along the coast, n Karachi, for proper civilization. these cities can very easily be avoided, sindh n balochistan are unpopulated for the most part, save for scattered villages.

how can u say its pakistani goverment? u do not know the terrain of pakistan, and how EASILY u can get around thru the sindh n baloch deserts with a few land rovers, there is NO ONE to say anything. it could be indians too, with proper documentation / fake documentation getting thru the borders. pashtunistan in general is too porous.

all im sayin is dont assume especially if u dont know for sure. hunches are one thing. but coming on here and makin a statement like that is heinous bro, cmon now.

and thanks Mac for that post with chris brady's link.

my 2 cents.

-TZ

i made edits in my posts for security purposes, as i do not have clearance to speak of some things.

 

[Summy]

Here are some facts directly from one of the terrorists:

1) All the terrorists are of Pakistani citizenship and reside in Paksitan
2) The terrorist trained in Pakistan controlled Kashmir for a period.
3) The terrorists recieved MARINE training in Karachi.
4) The groups responsible are either the Laksha-e Toiba, or other Kashmiri groups in which a US led watch dog agency showed that the pakistan governmental institutions have funded.

If it wasnt the ISI, there must have been some intelligence agency aware of such ongoings. How you get military marine training and not know is beyond me. You know that Kashmiri POK is HEAVILY monitored by pakistan intelligence agencies for any wrong doings of the indian army. This group is all likelihood has some connection to Kashmir. Sky News reproted that several witnesses and hostages repeately heard the terrorists say that "Do you know how many your army have killed in kashmir? Do you know how many muslims you have killed?"

IF this was a kashmiri group, then I believe there is going to be NO debate on whether Pakistan has their money and interests in Kashmiri groups right? I mean we can all agree on that. The peices go together, and just as quick as the media and govenrment put it together, an individual can as well. Saying, lets not blame until the facts come out, there will be always be loop holes in what is provided for people to say, "well we dont know for sure." Its sad and it hurts the state we live in when people defend more then send their condolescenes. Not one time did Faizan bother to say, well its horrible what went on there. He automatically got pissed and defensive when reports that pakistan was involved.

I am just pointing out the back story to similar events not charging anyone with these crimes. If you want to wait till the "facts" come out, and what they are reporting now isnt good enough, then you can wait.

But Taiymur, brother, HONESTLY, if the ISI had no knowledge or didnt know what was going on, why did the government under interntional pressure send an ISI representative and not the Cheif minister to India for an exchange of intelligence? Why the ISI rather than the Cheif Minister? It seems like the ISI has information valuable to the Indian government and thats why they were sent. It was Delhi's request that an ISI agent be sent to India for questioning and intelligence sharing, not other parts. They must have known something, the ISI knows something or else sending them to India on both sides would be a waste. Here is the link if you dont believe me:

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008%5C11%5C29%5Cstory_29-11-2008_pg7_23


These terrorist groups are not reflective of the people of pakistan. I understand they are fighting and causing harm within their own country as we saw with the Marriot bombings. It is no coincidence that westerners were targeted here. There is a dictomy however. A difference between the Pakistani loyalists who are just as bad as the loyalists in India. They are supporting these groups, and I have no met one level pakistani yet to justify these actions.

Each one I have spoke to has said yeah, you know what, before they cause shit elsewhere, now, they are causing shit within our land, and going into other places. The pakistani governmental institutions need to solve kashmir and other disputes without involoving these brutal groups.

When you blindly defend the actions of a group of people rather than distancing yourself from this inhumanity, it gives people to believe that there is no dicotomy.

You think about it, when Bhutto came back into the folds of things, I was so excited and I thought Pakistans involvement in bullshit was over because even though there are ideological similarities, Pakistan in the past has managed to steer clear of these major conflicts. Right now, they are smack dabb in the middle.