Show Order

[Ajay.H]

Does anyone have one solid reason that outweighs the contrary why show order should not be completely random?

 

[mrchicity]

If you're that shitty team that sends in roster stuff and lighting cues and the mix super late, making a huge hassle for the competition committee, why should they even let you have a chance at going later in the show? A reward system for that stuff seems fair to me, as long as the competition is transparent about it.


Btw not calling you guys a shitty team, hope you kill it this weekend.

 

[Ajay.H]

Haha appreciate it, boss.

Fair. Rephrase: Should it at all be determined by mixer games?

 

[mrchicity]

No, teams shouldn't have to worry about exerting themselves on stupid little mixer games the night before a comp just so they can choose their spot In the show. For the past few comps I've been to, finding out the order was the most stressed I got all weekend, it's stupid to make a team stress out about little nonsense games.

 

[yraparla]

Games should only be involved for double blind, that way game has no effect on the actual order.

Random order gives teams a sense of fate, that it was out of their hands. Picking the order gives teams a chance to be excited. If you aren't happy with your spot or you don't want to stress then just remember that's it's no different from random order!! Your personal mindset is the stress, not picking the lineup.


But yes, games should not have an effect on show lineup imo. Teams are straggling on friday, unfair to punish people coming in late or w/e. I also HATE comps that involve the mix and shit as part of their decisioning process. Oh i'm sorry that my team is spending ever last minute to put on the best performance possible, fuck us right? If you're0 late for a roster and paperwork, fine I guess. But mix and lighting and shit is eh....why punish teams that maybe have to compete one week and then change the set to meet different requirements the next week? Seems silly


I like the idea of knowing lineup ahead of the comp, but I personally feel it becomes very shady when comps just pick a lineup. If a comp had a google hangout with captains and picked out of a hat or something, that would be fun!

 

[Deepi253]

lol let's just add a random generator to the forum, which is used to pick lineup, can't get more transparent than that

Or do what swi did at the first sin city ... And at starting of mixer ever captain picks out of a hat a number and whatever number that is that's your spot .

 

[J-Skeet]

Personally I like the idea of earning your order in the show. Certain games are sometimes weird, but battling your way to your spot has it's own feel to it. Honestly IMO teams should have "dance offs" to determine the order. Some people say it causes unneeded stress, but it's a comp and this is kind of what you signed up for.

 

[RsKderpu]

Dance order should be random.
Having to "battle" for position gives teams unfair advantages.
SWI idea is prolly the best and most transparent. Have order number in a hat and have captains draw from it.

 

[RsKderpu]

.

 

[Ajay.H]

Personally I like the idea of earning your order in the show. Certain games are sometimes weird, but battling your way to your spot has it's own feel to it. Honestly IMO teams should have "dance offs" to determine the order. Some people say it causes unneeded stress, but it's a comp and this is kind of what you signed up for.

Having a dance off to determine show order is too subjective in my opinion. You're also kind of suggesting that the team with the best dancers will win the game and have the upper hand.

Random show order also allows someone else to choose for that team in the case of a problem arising and them being late/not making the mixer. Shit happens. Games should only be related to show order if they are double blind and are essentially random, anyway.

 

[akumgill]

lol let's just add a random generator to the forum, which is used to pick lineup, can't get more transparent than that

Or do what swi did at the first sin city ... And at starting of mixer ever captain picks out of a hat a number and whatever number that is that's your spot .

I think the act of picking show order should be random, but I don't think that show order itself should be random if that makes any sense. If team A would be happier with one spot and team B would be happier in another spot, it seems a little silly to put both teams where they don't want to be. Random show order picking has all the advantages of random assignment, but maximizes team happiness.

 

[J-Skeet]

Having a dance off to determine show order is too subjective in my opinion. You're also kind of suggesting that the team with the best dancers will win the game and have the upper hand.

Random show order also allows someone else to choose for that team in the case of a problem arising and them being late/not making the mixer. Shit happens. Games should only be related to show order if they are double blind and are essentially random, anyway.

Not always do the "best" dancers win. Though I don't think that their is a "right" way to determine show order. Again imo I like the stress..it adds to the feel of the competition and presents incentive to outdo your opponent etc etc. About the subjectivity....I mean when your getting judged the next day it's pretty subjective as well. There are some creative ways around though, but it's besides the point. It's just my preference and opinion.

 

[vmural2]

I also HATE comps that involve the mix and shit as part of their decisioning process. Oh i'm sorry that my team is spending ever last minute to put on the best performance possible, fuck us right?

+1. The more time a DJ spends on his/her mix, the better it's going to sound, the better that teams performance is going to be, and the better the audience's opinion is of the overall show. Unfortunately, I feel only a few DJs get leeway here because of who they might know on the committee, or their reputations. Kinda sucks for lesser known djs who could use the extra few days/hours to put out a better product.

Next point:
If the point of the mixer is to mingle with other teams, then having teams compete against each other during the mixer seems a bit contradictory. I think it'd be cool to mix up the teams and play games within those teams so you actually get to interact with other team members and its all for fun. They kinda do that with the dance-offs but adding a few activities might enhance that idea as well. Keep a point system for a competitive atmosphere, and maybe give the winning (mixed) teams a small prize at the end.

I think the act of picking show order should be random, but I don't think that show order itself should be random if that makes any sense.

This makes sense. For show order, have team captains pick a number out of a hat and make that the order in which THEY GET TO CHOOSE their spot in the show. That way its random, but you still have somewhat of a say in when you want to go.

 

[Armaan Kapoor]

Picking out of a hat is the way to go. In my opinion, at the end of the day, dancing is what places teams, not show order. No team ever blames their spot in the lineup for the reason why they didn't place in a comp.

 

[Saab]

Mixers, in general, would be more fun if the point of the mixer was about meeting people and actually mingling with each other. If games and activities were more conducive towards this while also being fun, mixers would generally be a much more fun environment. This hasnt happened in a long time...

 

[yraparla]

No team ever blames their spot in the lineup for the reason why they didn't place in a comp.

That's simply not true. I believe that in general teams psych themselves out about show orders more than they matter (i.e. teams get bummed about going first and that affects their score more than the external factors about going first). But even so, teams still hate going early in a show. And I've been thinking for years how to fix it, and I've got an idea I would have loved to competed with.

My dream scenario is two-fold, and I don't think it should be for every competition (blind drawing by the teams at mixer is the default and best no question). I just think my idea is fun and adds and element to the weekend, and I'd love if one competition did it. Keep and open mind, please read through the whole thing!

My 'Fun' Show Order Idea- Two rules (assuming 8-10 teams)

1. Both the first half and second half must have a team place.
2. Teams blindly choose an order. This order is the order that teams get to choose their spot.

Hear me out. These two things have to go hand in hand because it's meant to solve a very specific problem. Teams hate going early in a show. Crowd isn't full/paying attention. Judges are just getting their groove going and might forget you by end of the show, and you just don't feel hype going second as going in second half. But what if we added value to going in the first half. What if we could make going first, not the your favorite choice, but still a choice that you would make.

Theory
The idea is to add value to the early order by introducing strategy. One placing team must come from each half, which means that teams are competing against only their half for a placing (but still against all the teams for which one, i.e. if you want to win you still have to be the best in the show). If you couple that with teams picking their order, then you add value to every spot in the lineup because you might in certain situations want to go first, if you feel that half is weak.

Think about it, you add value to going first (albeit small, but still!). And if you are not one to play games or don't want to be stressed, then simply pick some arbitrary spot that's left and boom it's basically a blind draw anyway! You lose nothing in terms of 'randomness' if a team wants to play that way but you gain all sorts of cool strategy ideas. And I think it would definitely make teams competitive because if someone does actually chose say first or second spot over a sixth spot. that team is indirectly challenging the others in their half!

so it doesn't really defy the current accepted standard, which is blind/double blind (yes yes you can argue there's an opportunity cost lost because some teams will maneuver but it's not a true advantage, only a perceived one....which is the point, to make you value your choice so you're more confident!). It adds interesting strategy, things to think about, etc.


Cons+Rebuttal
The stickler for people will be the fact that we're restricting at least one placing to each half. It will be very rare, but the 3rd best team of the night could be left out due to being in a strong half. But the whole point is that the team could have chosen another spot, and if they couldn't, then they got shat on by luck, which is no different from pulling the dreaded 1st spot out of a hat.


Keep in mind that judges can also discuss and award a team in the first half the win at intermission (although they wouldn't announce it). This means they would have the first half teams fresh in their mind, and hopefully reduce factors like crowd and judging fatigue since the teams are going close together. The winner is also a yardstick for the second half....which is actually a huge help for judges in my opinion. It's hard to remember 10 teams at the end of a night, that's just a fact. Fatigue is expected, so why not accept that and try something new?


It's a crazy idea, and I've floated to multiple people in the circuit and in the end, every single one is uneasy about it. But no one ever dismisses it outright after I talk to them because it's not actually crazy. It just values something different. So what if all 8 or 10 teams aren't judged together. In the end we can all agree that judging and rubrics are arbitrary anyway!


If as a team you know what you're getting into, and you buy into the strategy and embrace it, I think it can lead to a better experience. It'll build micro-rivalries as teams can focus on 3 or 4 teams to beat. Everyone feels like they have a shot to place! Yes, there are edge cases where the best 3 teams may not place, but it's not likely to be a huge issue. The real way to think of it is actually as a playoff. 8 teams, pick the best 2 in each half. Now pick the best in each half, and then pick the winner of the consolation match. Boom, that's your placings. Most people understand how playoffs can be affect by matchups but we don't care because we're used to it and it's fun. Bhangra can't really do playoff matchups since we only dance once (WBBC came close tho), so this is a great way in my opinion to catch that feel that anyone can take it (NFL, March Madness).

 

[Aditya]

i like you, but you're crazy.

 

[mrchicity]

Picking out of a hat is the way to go. In my opinion, at the end of the day, dancing is what places teams, not show order. No team ever blames their spot in the lineup for the reason why they didn't place in a comp.

Very untrue, it affects the outcome of a competition more than you think. As Swi said, going first can psych a team out (experienced this twice myself), going first ensures that there will not be as much of a crowd response because usually a large chunk of the audience gets there later, and the amount of time that passes between the start and finish of a show can affect a judge's memory of the first team.

Another note about judging: judges usually have to score a team that goes first a bit lower. Once again, speaking from experience, when you're judging the first team that goes up and you have a rubric in front of you that allots maybe 15 points for creativity (just an example), how can you give that first team a 15/15? Unless they're bringing the most mindblasting shit you've ever seen, you can't give full marks for anything (except maybe outfits or something) without seeing other teams as well. I think the natural thing to do is to unfortunately score that team a bit lower, whether a judge means to or not. Plus factor in the amount of time that they have to process the routine between acts, deciding what the difference between a 6 and a 7 out of 10 really is, etc etc, there's a lot that can influence a judge's score.

Swi, I actually had an interesting idea the other day: if the teams at the competition aren't the first teams the judges have scored all day, maybe some of the inherent flaws with going first can be ameliorated (fuck SAT words). If the judges were to sit down maybe 30 minutes before the show and watch some random team that none of them have seen before and score it, maybe they can get a little more used to the scoresheet and to each other's general ways of thinking when they're judging, which could help for the actual competition.

 

[yraparla]

If the judges were to sit down maybe 30 minutes before the show and watch some random team that none of them have seen before and score it, maybe they can get a little more used to the scoresheet and to each other's general ways of thinking when they're judging, which could help for the actual competition.

Great point. You're right, it would be a huge help to flesh out a rubric tangibly right before the comp and get judges in the zone. Stretch the mind and the brain

 

[Armaan Kapoor]

Valid points Swi and mrchicity, Ive personally never gone first (actually never before 5th lol) in a comp, so I see where my logic may have been off, it's something I need to experience.


Also, I REALLY like that idea Swi. As you pointed out with WBBC, going first in a matchup is not necessarily a disadvantage. How close have you been with comp organizers on implementing that kind of judging rubric? It be very interesting