Sikhi

[Sonuu]

P.s. Sonu I think I know who you're talking about around campus

 

[yraparla]

We've had some heated topics about sikhi, castes, relationship to hinduism, sects of sikhism etc.

I really applaud COMTON cause we've done this for about a year and he still has energy to keep providing his unique perspective.

I however....don't. So I submit to you old topics along these lines:

http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1060.0.html (Sikhi, Deras, and Castes)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1178.0.html (is JATT a caste or ethnicity)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,5603.0.html (JATT the highest caste?)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1005.0.html (Caste and Marriage)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,990.0.html (Big topic on lots of Sikh topics)

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

We've had some heated topics about sikhi, castes, relationship to hinduism, sects of sikhism etc.

I really applaud COMTON cause we've done this for about a year and he still has energy to keep providing his unique perspective.

I however....don't. So I submit to you old topics along these lines:

http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1060.0.html (Sikhi, Deras, and Castes)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1178.0.html (is JATT a caste or ethnicity)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,5603.0.html (JATT the highest caste?)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1005.0.html (Caste and Marriage)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,990.0.html (Big topic on lots of Sikh topics)

Man we used to have some long ass threads back in the day.

 

[yraparla]

We've had some heated topics about sikhi, castes, relationship to hinduism, sects of sikhism etc.

I really applaud COMTON cause we've done this for about a year and he still has energy to keep providing his unique perspective.

I however....don't. So I submit to you old topics along these lines:

http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1060.0.html (Sikhi, Deras, and Castes)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1178.0.html (is JATT a caste or ethnicity)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,5603.0.html (JATT the highest caste?)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,1005.0.html (Caste and Marriage)
http://bhangrateamsforum.com/discuss/index.php/topic,990.0.html (Big topic on lots of Sikh topics)

Man we used to have some long ass threads back in the day.

Yea man, it make me sad but I can't bring myself to read and comment on this thread. I'm just argued out on these topics cause people keep bringing in the same misconceptions

 

[terabaap]

if you wanna keep it going. give me till thanksgiving time where i can actually write out something that has some semblance of being a proper response.

 

[yraparla]

if you wanna keep it going. give me till thanksgiving time where i can actually write out something that has some semblance of being a proper response.

Definitely do it bro, you never know who'll read this and maybe something will click and a great convo will happen

 

[terabaap]

if you wanna keep it going. give me till thanksgiving time where i can actually write out something that has some semblance of being a proper response.

Definitely do it bro, you never know who'll read this and maybe something will click and a great convo will happen

kinda like sexxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[singh5327]

if you wanna keep it going. give me till thanksgiving time where i can actually write out something that has some semblance of being a proper response.

lmaoooooooo

Definitely do it bro, you never know who'll read this and maybe something will click and a great convo will happen

kinda like sexxxxxxxxxxxx

 

[Tuckerrrr]

Aho, paaji but I would argue that religious groups create a graver form of discrimination than ethnic/racial groups. The stakes are higher. Religion promises heaven/nirvana/eternal peace to its believers, and narkh/hell/lower reincarnation/eternal misery to its non-believers. I would rather have mutural respect for the different cultural groups out there and understand that we are all different but equal, than have a bunch of different religions that separate between the righteous believers and the evil, unpure infidels (lol).

Also, while we are at it, why do people always say religion and culture are too different things. Religion is an aspect of culture. I think we punjabis think that only dance, music, and food are culture. Most anthropologists would argue that culture is much more, and religion (and i know this is going to hurt a lot of people) is a man-made, cultural/social construction. Yeah, sorry guys...no "sky god" came down and brought religion to Man. we created it ourselves.

Brother, I agree with alot of what you say. I agree religion was man-made, but I disagree in your assumption that we can't have religion whilst holding mutual respect for one another. Sikhism teaches to respect all people. So do some other faiths. Even if you don't believe in institutionalized religion (and I don't believe Sikhism should be institutionalized as it is), you still have some form of 'religion' or morals to live by. People will differ in these personal morals, as religions do. Religion gave us a basis for morality. Yes, science has exposed the falseness of most religious theology, but it isn't a viable replacement. Science answers how a doctor can cure someone who is dying of chickenpox, but it doesn't answer why we believe that it's right that the doctor do so. Something needs to fill that gap of moral consciousness, and for me that's Sikhism's humanist ideology (works even with an athiest/agnostic point of view), which includes sewa, tolerance, equality, justice, etc. and holds the highest form of being as community (Sikhism's view on God is so abstract...it's manifested in the world, which in turn infers that the world around us--our human community--Sangat--is the supreme being itself). I don't believe in anything supernatural; Sikhism still works for me as a philosophy which is why I believe religion is not necessarily a bad thing.

And bro, while I agree that religion is man-made, I don't think it's necessarily a part of culture in the way people mean it here. What about converts in different parts of the world? I think it's funny...we have this super liberal, modern, truth-seeking religion Sikhism, but it was put into one of the world's most divided, conflict-driven, egotistical, backward regions on earth. I guess the vast differences between Sikhism and Punjabi culture could be because of the nature of Guru Nanak, who challenged pretty much everything around him, but still. Don't get me wrong, Punjabi culture has come a very long way and alot of that can be conferred to Sikh and British influence in the region, but its still pretty out of line with Sikhism and modern values with the current stress on intoxicants, gender inequality, counterproductive pride, racism, fighting, and casteism that still exist in our culture (not to mention in our music!). Sikhism grew out of a person challenging the existing norms of his culture, but today many Sikhs hold on to the norms of Punjabi culture believing that Sikhism is dependent on it.

 

[Sohaj]

No one said that science can be a viable replacement for religion but there can be others....economics, for example. As an atheist I do feel the need to have a strong community with justice, tolerance, equality, etc..but it has nothing to do with my morals and everything to do with my need to be in a productive society. It would be hard to do anything productive in a society which lacks any of the above mentioned attributes. You can cannot have property rights without justice, you cannot have trade without tolerance, you cannot have a strong working class without equality.

I don't have a problem with individuals looking towards their religion for guidance in their own personal life. But, most religions are institutionalized and as a result, they serve not necessarily in the best interest of its clients but in the interest of its leaders who in-turn are serving in their own best interest. That is a recipe for disaster. Also, culture and religion cannot be separated. It really doesn't matter what Guru Granth Sahib says if its teaching are falling on deaf ears. Idol worshipping, for example, is prohibited but all Sikhs still treat Guru Granth Sahib as an idol (bowing head in front of it, changing clothes on it, putting it to sleep and most shockingly putting cologne on it-can a Guru really smell???).

I don't think you can have different institutionalized religions on this planet coexisting. You can have individuals who believe in different religion co-exist in a community as long as its in their own economic interest to do so. Maybe same idea needs to be applied to institutionalized religions...if a follower of say religion X disturbs peace in a community and uses his religion as an excuse, every member of that religion should be fined. We already have economic incentive to be a moralistic person in US...lets apply that to religion.

 

[zagreus]

And bro, while I agree that religion is man-made, I don't think it's necessarily a part of culture in the way people mean it here. What about converts in different parts of the world? I think it's funny...we have this super liberal, modern, truth-seeking religion Sikhism, but it was put into one of the world's most divided, conflict-driven, egotistical, backward regions on earth. I guess the vast differences between Sikhism and Punjabi culture could be because of the nature of Guru Nanak, who challenged pretty much everything around him, but still. Don't get me wrong, Punjabi culture has come a very long way and alot of that can be conferred to Sikh and British influence in the region, but its still pretty out of line with Sikhism and modern values with the current stress on intoxicants, gender inequality, counterproductive pride, racism, fighting, and casteism that still exist in our culture (not to mention in our music!). Sikhism grew out of a person challenging the existing norms of his culture, but today many Sikhs hold on to the norms of Punjabi culture believing that Sikhism is dependent on it.

i would have to agree with that. The culture isn't quite doing a lot to help when it comes to address gender inequality, female infanticide, the pride issue can be counterproductive when trying to reach a better compromise. The religion should be working harder in addressing those issues in punjab, but clearly...it hasn't done enough. I just think people can take things too far, and that really hurts the cause. There are a lot of issues in punjab, but they are largely ignored because of a caste divide. As the country moves ahead, only certain parts of punjab move ahead with it.

And as far as people signaling you out for NOT being Jatt and such, yeah...it's a problem with me. I've done plenty of dhol gigs in the area, and sometimes i do some varying Jatt parties, when someone asks for my last name (it's kapoor), they get surprised, call me a hindu and tell me i'm not sikh enough or jatt enough...while they hold a drink in their hand, after they danced with a belly dancer while his wife looked on. And there are bhangra teams that can certainly follow that same track when talking to non-jatts. Some are great and open, and others...they are just there to cause a scene and talk about being jatt the entire time.

 

[Varun]

Religion is a necessary evil. It's necessary because many humans cannot be inspired to live righteously without a book, ideology, incentive (heaven) telling them to do so. It's an evil because it prevents the individual from thinking for his or her self.

Of course the elitist religious authority will counter that individuals are naturally immoral and corrupt, that they need a Mohammad, a Guru Nanak, a Krishna, a Jesus to "think for them" and "give us a basis for morality" (don't even get me started on how subjective and narrow this idea of morality is).

The greatest religion = think for yourself. Is that not what Guru Nanak did? He rejected dogma...maybe so should we.

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

Brother, I agree with alot of what you say. I agree religion was man-made, but I disagree in your assumption that we can't have religion whilst holding mutual respect for one another. Sikhism teaches to respect all people. So do some other faiths. Even if you don't believe in institutionalized religion (and I don't believe Sikhism should be institutionalized as it is), you still have some form of 'religion' or morals to live by. People will differ in these personal morals, as religions do. Religion gave us a basis for morality. Yes, science has exposed the falseness of most religious theology, but it isn't a viable replacement. Science answers how a doctor can cure someone who is dying of chickenpox, but it doesn't answer why we believe that it's right that the doctor do so. Something needs to fill that gap of moral consciousness, and for me that's Sikhism's humanist ideology (works even with an athiest/agnostic point of view), which includes sewa, tolerance, equality, justice, etc. and holds the highest form of being as community (Sikhism's view on God is so abstract...it's manifested in the world, which in turn infers that the world around us--our human community--Sangat--is the supreme being itself). I don't believe in anything supernatural; Sikhism still works for me as a philosophy which is why I believe religion is not necessarily a bad thing.

And bro, while I agree that religion is man-made, I don't think it's necessarily a part of culture in the way people mean it here. What about converts in different parts of the world? I think it's funny...we have this super liberal, modern, truth-seeking religion Sikhism, but it was put into one of the world's most divided, conflict-driven, egotistical, backward regions on earth. I guess the vast differences between Sikhism and Punjabi culture could be because of the nature of Guru Nanak, who challenged pretty much everything around him, but still. Don't get me wrong, Punjabi culture has come a very long way and alot of that can be conferred to Sikh and British influence in the region, but its still pretty out of line with Sikhism and modern values with the current stress on intoxicants, gender inequality, counterproductive pride, racism, fighting, and casteism that still exist in our culture (not to mention in our music!). Sikhism grew out of a person challenging the existing norms of his culture, but today many Sikhs hold on to the norms of Punjabi culture believing that Sikhism is dependent on it.

You bring up some great points. This might go off tangent a bit but the main reason I think science will probably never supplant religion on large scale is because of the truth of death. Science tells us that when we die our bodies decompose and our consciousness is gone. The modern religions tell us it lives on in one form or another whether it be heaven or something more esoteric as one with God. Religions main purpose was to give answers to questions before technology and science could. Science's explanation is scary as hell and we in our minds want nothing more deep down other than to survive, no matter how ridiculous we know some things religions tell us are.

I always kind of thought of Sikhism as a really really practical in a lot of ways and it always irritated me as a kid growing up why everything culturally seemed to contradict what was said. Equality of human beings? Oh we have servants that we beat and call chamars and don't let into gurudwaras. No superstition? Oh you can't have your feet pointed towards SGGS (WTF PEOPLE HAVE THEY NOT READ THE JANAMSAKHI OF GURU NANAK IN MAKKAH). Ok enough random thoughts, I realize that the community aspect of religion and feeling like you are a part of something can't be replaced with science either.


In the same token though I really highly doubt that Sikhism could have arisen anywhere other than the Punjab. If Guru Nanak was born in say Bengal or Karnataka he would not have been exposed to the specific atmosphere of the Punjab in those times. Here are the ingredients: A region in disarray and fear from repeated invasions and lootings from Central Asia and the Middle East, a population that was predominantly middle to lower "caste" and would be responsive to some egalitarian vision, (Even today I think Punjab has the highest number of 'untouchables' per capita) ,a rising tradition of Bhakti worship that for the most part rejected notions superstition and instead focused on esoteric aspects of the divine, an extremely strong tradition of Sufism that had become widely accepted in the Punjab as a result of Sufi Pirs humanitarian efforts (langar halls, education and miracles). Factors like these really primed up the situation for Guru Nanak to spread his message and I doubt he would have gotten support he did if he was somewhere else. Maybe, but chances are modern history might have seen him as "just another practitioner of Sant Mat who tried to bring communities together"

 

[COMTONDAJATT]

I don't think you can have different institutionalized religions on this planet coexisting. You can have individuals who believe in different religion co-exist in a community as long as its in their own economic interest to do so. Maybe same idea needs to be applied to institutionalized religions...if a follower of say religion X disturbs peace in a community and uses his religion as an excuse, every member of that religion should be fined. We already have economic incentive to be a moralistic person in US...lets apply that to religion.

YES. I whole heartedly agree with everything you said. Economic factors pretty much are THE cause for everything around us but we like to use cop outs and say vague things are to blame instead. This is most interesting, I have read a lot of papers on the idea that the situation in a place like Gaza could be fixed if there was a way to connect the two Palestinian territories and that in turn will lead to infrastructure that leads to eventual economic growth and self sufficiency. If anyone is interested this dude talks about it in his TED talk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRWTyUVh0BQ

 

[Tuckerrrr]

I always kind of thought of Sikhism as a really really practical in a lot of ways and it always irritated me as a kid growing up why everything culturally seemed to contradict what was said. Equality of human beings? Oh we have servants that we beat and call chamars and don't let into gurudwaras. No superstition? Oh you can't have your feet pointed towards SGGS (WTF PEOPLE HAVE THEY NOT READ THE JANAMSAKHI OF GURU NANAK IN MAKKAH). Ok enough random thoughts, I realize that the community aspect of religion and feeling like you are a part of something can't be replaced with science either.


In the same token though I really highly doubt that Sikhism could have arisen anywhere other than the Punjab. If Guru Nanak was born in say Bengal or Karnataka he would not have been exposed to the specific atmosphere of the Punjab in those times. Here are the ingredients: A region in disarray and fear from repeated invasions and lootings from Central Asia and the Middle East, a population that was predominantly middle to lower "caste" and would be responsive to some egalitarian vision, (Even today I think Punjab has the highest number of 'untouchables' per capita) ,a rising tradition of Bhakti worship that for the most part rejected notions superstition and instead focused on esoteric aspects of the divine, an extremely strong tradition of Sufism that had become widely accepted in the Punjab as a result of Sufi Pirs humanitarian efforts (langar halls, education and miracles). Factors like these really primed up the situation for Guru Nanak to spread his message and I doubt he would have gotten support he did if he was somewhere else. Maybe, but chances are modern history might have seen him as "just another practitioner of Sant Mat who tried to bring communities together"

good points, hadn't really analyzed sikhism working in punjab as oppossed to other places that deeply, and i agree with u. and def agree that sikhism is extremely practical but people often dont practice it in that way. if done right, its a recipe for success (by success i mean achievement of goals, whatever they may be).

another tangent, has anyone ever noticed how sikhism is similar to the american constitution? individual freedoms, right to bear arms, equal treatment, anti-discrimination, freedom of opportunity, etc.