T DOT BHANGRA COMPETITION RESULTS AND REVIEW

[Sue Sylvester]

Just to clarify, based on the rubric we didn't lose for a lack cleanliness, the main issue was a debate over our gimmick. When the video comes out we can go a bit more in-depth about this discussion until than wait for boston folks!

If it's the 300 gimmick, then that's extremely unfortunate. It was very well executed and one of my favorite gimmicks of the year. Sure, I guess I'm biased - I started a team called Spartan Bhangra, made them do fasla to random lines from the movie and am pretending that I'm a shirtless Leonidas in my Facebook picture, but even then, if the 300 gimmick cost you the win, then that's really unfortunate.


In regards to NJW and NYPD. NJW wasn't as clean as they normally are, but were cleaner than NYPD. NJW made more mistakes, but their overall set was cleaner. I honestly cannot decide which team I would have put as first, but I think my extremely high expectations of NJW and my expectations of a cleaner, but less entertaining set from NYPD is skewing this for me.

 

[somi15]

nachdi jawani killed it

 

[ashleyherar]

congrats to all the teaaams !

 

[notorious_jatt]

congrats to all the teams!! i had an awesome time!!

 

[faizan]

The 300 gimmick is controversial to say the least...i can see why it was disfavored amongst the judges. Should violence be portrayed in a bhangra set? And for that matter, should flashy lights and masks also be included? NYPD pushed the boundaries of a set with their 300 gimmick and were penalized. Their set was far superior to that of njw's, despite the messiness. And maybe even if they did not have the gimmick, they still would have come in second, but, to hold them at second for a mere gimmick seems unfair. This is a great conversation to have. Bhangra is a celebratory dance appropriate for occasions of jubilation. What place does violence as portrayed by spheres and shields have in a bhangra set? I'm on the fence. The gimmick was amazing, the best I have seen in a long time. That being said, gimmicks can also be inappropriate. Daroo songs for example are strictly forbidden, but teams commonly employ songs about violence (Panga, etc.). Double standards abound. It seems that these judges thought that song selection is one thing, but actual full-on portrayal of battle in a bhangra set is a no-no. Sigh, I usually have a black and white answer for most things bhangra, but, for this I am conflicted. What does everyone think, should violent gimmicks be penalized, or is all fair in love and bhangra?

 

[voxanimus]

to what extent did the gimmick glorify violence? no one has really seen it yet (video's not out, as far as i know). i think preventing the glorification of violence in a bhangra set is an admirable goal, and if the gimmick crossed the line between presentation and glorification, then it was rightfully a detractor from NYPD's set. how was it different, from, say, NJ's use of swords at elite 8 2010 (which to my knowledge didn't detract from their placing)?


elements of violence in a bhangra set are not just limited to use of songs like Panga or Fight. sword slashes and gun shots are commonplace effects in a modern mix. SEP, to use a recent example, had tons of these in the Jashan mix, and look at how they did. to anyone that judges, do you guys look at the use of these from a violence aspect when you judge? they're well-known to cause, in excess, a departure from the traditional roots of bhangra, but are they ever viewed as indicative or advocative of violence? empirically, it's impossible to distance the idea of a sword slash or a gun shot from violence. if they don't lend violent leanings (at least, from a judging standpoint) to mixes they're used in, then i think it's duplicitous to penalize NYPD.

 

[HarmanSingh]

They also let out a Jakara before going into that 300 scene (which made it look less like a 300 scene and more like a religious battle to me). The religious imagery then continued with a shair at the end of the routine where they used the "assi putt ha Guru Gobind Singh De..." The Jakara in a routine is completely inappropriate, especially when you follow it up with what could easily be confused with an attempt to mimic battle.

(I saw all this on video, I am just going by what I remember. I may be off on some details).

 

[HarmanToor]

Things that might suggest it was a 300 scene (which it was)
- we used exact replica Spartan Shields (certified )
- we created an exact replica of the Spartan Dome (we googled 300 and there are many pictures showing the dome technique)
- "all will know that 300 spartans gave their last breaths to defend it" (you don't just throw random movie quotes in a bhangra routine unless your trying to convince them of whats going on)
- The special move which is called achilles jump, originated from the movie 300 (it's in the main fight scene you can youtube it)
- nothing but AHOO's in the remix (........... are you for real do I really have to convince any more then that? no other religion caste culture or movie has used the haik AHOO before other then 300 Spartans )

Things that might suggest it was a religous battle (which it wasn't)
- 16 guys wearing paggs doing a choreographed routine with shields


The guy who deducted points for that gimmick thought exactly like you did, but he said he never seen the movie 300 so that's why we're cool with it he was LEGITIMATELY confused. But I know you have all seen the movie so please dont ever bring religion in this discussion again. Next time we'll just bring Gerard Butler up on stage. Maybe that might alleviate your confusion.

The only argument you can possibly have is the violence and that like Faizan says is debatable, IMO if you have shields on stage you need to do atleast 1 fighting move because it would be stupid if you didn't use the shield for its purpose. Some people are going to dislike it but most people are going to be blown away by it, and that alone is a solid reason to use it. We are here to win, we're not here to promote anything.


END of discussion!

 

[HarmanSingh]

Things that might suggest it was a 300 scene (which it was)
- we used exact replica Spartan Shields (certified )
- we created an exact replica of the Spartan Dome (we googled 300 and there are many pictures showing the dome technique)
- "all will know that 300 spartans gave their last breaths to defend it" (you don't just throw random movie quotes in a bhangra routine unless your trying to convince them of whats going on)
- The special move which is called achilles jump, originated from the movie 300 (it's in the main fight scene you can youtube it)
- nothing but AHOO's in the remix (........... are you for real do I really have to convince any more then that? no other religion caste culture or movie has used the haik AHOO before other then 300 Spartans )

Things that might suggest it was a religous battle (which it wasn't)
- 16 guys wearing paggs doing a choreographed routine with shields


The guy who deducted points for that gimmick thought exactly like you did, but he said he never seen the movie 300 so that's why we're cool with it he was LEGITIMATELY confused. But I know you have all seen the movie so please dont ever bring religion in this discussion again. Next time we'll just bring Gerard Butler up on stage. Maybe that might alleviate your confusion.

The only argument you can possibly have is the violence and that like Faizan says is debatable, IMO if you have shields on stage you need to do atleast 1 fighting move because it would be stupid if you didn't use the shield for its purpose. Some people are going to dislike it but most people are going to be blown away by it, and that alone is a solid reason to use it. We are here to win, we're not here to promote anything.


END of discussion!

I understand it was a 300 gimmick. But you should also be aware that starting a battle scene with a Jakara will obviously lead to confusion and the blurring of lines between Sikhi and bhangra. The reason that guy (and I assume many in the audience) were offended is because you let out a Sikh battle cry right before engaging in a fake battle scene. Also, I saw the routine on video. I didn't see the details of the shields and had trouble hearing the entire mix so like I said, the details might be off.

Also, you guys brought religion in when you put religious elements into your routine.

 

[hardeep_singh]

Things that might suggest it was a 300 scene (which it was)

END of discussion!

I understand it was a 300 gimmick. But you should also be aware that starting a battle scene with a Jakara will obviously lead to confusion and the blurring of lines between Sikhi and bhangra. The reason that guy (and I assume many in the audience) were offended is because you let out a Sikh battle cry right before engaging in a fake battle scene. Also, I saw the routine on video. I didn't see the details of the shields and had trouble hearing the entire mix so like I said, the details might be off.

Also, you guys brought religion in when you put religious elements into your routine.

many teams use jakara either in their shers or in their mixes, i admit it's kinda unnecessary, but i don't see a problem with it if it's done respectfully. i don't see why anyone would be offended by the 300 gimmick (note: i haven't watched the video so i don't know all the details) but i can't imagine it being anymore violent than a gatka display. if i was watching a bhangra performance and saw a gimmick like that i would assume it was paying homage to gatka. again it's all about context, if a team uses a jakara then goes on to have songs about drinking and gettin with chicks, then ya it is disrespectful. nypd are very respectable group of guys and i doubt they would do anything that could be seen as disrespectful intentionally. harman has explained his gimmick and shouldn't have to defend it. i also agree with voxanimus's statement about violence, people are over-analyzing, it's a performance, enjoy it.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Things that might suggest it was a 300 scene (which it was)

END of discussion!

I understand it was a 300 gimmick. But you should also be aware that starting a battle scene with a Jakara will obviously lead to confusion and the blurring of lines between Sikhi and bhangra. The reason that guy (and I assume many in the audience) were offended is because you let out a Sikh battle cry right before engaging in a fake battle scene. Also, I saw the routine on video. I didn't see the details of the shields and had trouble hearing the entire mix so like I said, the details might be off.

Also, you guys brought religion in when you put religious elements into your routine.

many teams use jakara either in their shers or in their mixes, i admit it's kinda unnecessary, but i don't see a problem with it if it's done respectfully. i don't see why anyone would be offended by the 300 gimmick (note: i haven't watched the video so i don't know all the details) but i can't imagine it being anymore violent than a gatka display. if i was watching a bhangra performance and saw a gimmick like that i would assume it was paying homage to gatka. again it's all about context, if a team uses a jakara then goes on to have songs about drinking and gettin with chicks, then ya it can be seen as disrespectful. nypd are very respectable group of guys and i doubt they would do anything that could be seen as disrespectful intentionally. harman has explained his gimmick and shouldn't have to defend it. i also agree with voxanimus's statement about violence, people are over-analyzing, it's a performance, enjoy it.

In the video I saw the person recording responded to "Bole So Nihal" with "Bruaah". That is blatantly religious elements like that shouldn't be in mixes. You have drunk guys running around the show responding to Jakara's with stuff like that. I am aware a lot of teams use it, I just don't see the purpose and I can understand why a judge would mark them down for that. I seriously doubt older people in the audience understood it was a 300 gimmick. They probably heard the Jakara and saw the battle scene and thought "wow, these kids are trying to make a religious battle scene right in the middle of a bhangra routine". There was nothing "violent" about what they did, it was just the blurring of Sikhi and bhangra that I object to.

Also, my question to teams that do it is why even put a Jakara in there? What do you hope to accomplish by doing so? More than anything it seems to me like they want a cheap crowd reaction. I am sure the guys on NYPD knew a Jakara was used before Sikhs engaged in battle. They then followed that up with a battle scene. That is just asking for controversy.

 

[faizan]

We are here to win, we're not here to promote anything.

Alright, alright, i see you...i'm not on the fence anymore...

 

[HarmanToor]

Things that might suggest it was a 300 scene (which it was)
- we used exact replica Spartan Shields (certified )
- we created an exact replica of the Spartan Dome (we googled 300 and there are many pictures showing the dome technique)
- "all will know that 300 spartans gave their last breaths to defend it" (you don't just throw random movie quotes in a bhangra routine unless your trying to convince them of whats going on)
- The special move which is called achilles jump, originated from the movie 300 (it's in the main fight scene you can youtube it)
- nothing but AHOO's in the remix (........... are you for real do I really have to convince any more then that? no other religion caste culture or movie has used the haik AHOO before other then 300 Spartans )

Things that might suggest it was a religous battle (which it wasn't)
- 16 guys wearing paggs doing a choreographed routine with shields


The guy who deducted points for that gimmick thought exactly like you did, but he said he never seen the movie 300 so that's why we're cool with it he was LEGITIMATELY confused. But I know you have all seen the movie so please dont ever bring religion in this discussion again. Next time we'll just bring Gerard Butler up on stage. Maybe that might alleviate your confusion.

The only argument you can possibly have is the violence and that like Faizan says is debatable, IMO if you have shields on stage you need to do atleast 1 fighting move because it would be stupid if you didn't use the shield for its purpose. Some people are going to dislike it but most people are going to be blown away by it, and that alone is a solid reason to use it. We are here to win, we're not here to promote anything.


END of discussion!

I understand it was a 300 gimmick. But you should also be aware that starting a battle scene with a Jakara will obviously lead to confusion and the blurring of lines between Sikhi and bhangra. The reason that guy (and I assume many in the audience) were offended is because you let out a Sikh battle cry right before engaging in a fake battle scene. Also, I saw the routine on video. I didn't see the details of the shields and had trouble hearing the entire mix so like I said, the details might be off.

Also, you guys brought religion in when you put religious elements into your routine.

I understand the confusion, people get confused all the time it happens.. but I don't understand the crime we're being accused of.

instead of saying Jo Bole So Nihaal at the start of our routine like teams normally do we put it after our sapp segment, and for the sake of a clean mix we put in the same orchestra beat that accompanied the 300 speech because we care about that stuff and we want our mix to flow like 1 piece, we're professionals in that sense.. so that means we're going against Sikhi rules or something? are we hurting somebody? we did that Jaikara like every other team does it with the lights off and no one dancing and in full respects.. not to mention there was a whole 20 second english 300 movie scene speech that divided the two making them completely unrelated, they just had the same background music.. and the same goes for our ending speech, we did our Assi putt han Guru Gobind Singh Ji de sher just like EVERY other team around the world did it.. lights off and nobody dancing, just like any other sher I swear I can pull out countless videos.

as far as I know based off reactions 95% Of our audience loved it.. that was without a doubt our best segment ever and without a doubt my favourite stage gimmick to ever be performed.. we're not going to take it away because 5 % of our audience finds it too offensive because they don't have the ability to differentiate a 300 scene from a religious battle or because theyre just not down with the shields, we don't care about that.. funny thing is 4 people in total came up to us telling us we were portraying a wrong message towards Sikhism (???WTF) and we shouldn't have done it .. the next day on facebook is a picture of 1 of the 4 guys drinking his ass off in the club busting out his khanda tattoo thinking hes a bad mon.. you tell me whos the fool.

Sorry to say but that Jaikara is staying in there forever. It's all in your head how you react to this situation.

 

[hardeep_singh]

In the video I saw the person recording responded to "Bole So Nihal" with "Bruaah". That is blatantly religious elements like that shouldn't be in mixes. You have drunk guys running around the show responding to Jakara's with stuff like that. I am aware a lot of teams use it, I just don't see the purpose and I can understand why a judge would mark them down for that. I seriously doubt older people in the audience understood it was a 300 gimmick. They probably heard the Jakara and saw the battle scene and thought "wow, these kids are trying to make a religious battle scene right in the middle of a bhangra routine". There was nothing "violent" about what they did, it was just the blurring of Sikhi and bhangra that I object to.

Also, my question to teams that do it is why even put a Jakara in there? What do you hope to accomplish by doing so? More than anything it seems to me like they want a cheap crowd reaction. I am sure the guys on NYPD knew a Jakara was used before Sikhs engaged in battle. They then followed that up with a battle scene. That is just asking for controversy.

i agree that a lot of people blur the line between culture and religion, i don't see the need for jakaras or religious imagery in bhangra (khandas in team logos :-\ ) because it seems like there is a lack of understanding in some cases. people just need to be more aware of what they're doing so it doesnt come off as disrespectful and ignorant. bhangra is meant to be a celebration of culture and you can't really deny the influence sikhism has had on punjabi culture so it is tough for people to not connect the two. you do end up with some stupidity, i've heard a drunk dude yell jakara at a club, its outrageous and shows how retarded people can be, but there's not much you can personally do to kill that level of ignorance. on the opposite note if a team wants to respectfully pay homage to something related to sikhism(example: boli bout baba deep singh ji) as a part of their performance and do it in a classy manner, then they have every right to. there's nothing a team can do about drunk people in the audience or how the audience will react.

 

[HarmanToor]

In the video I saw the person recording responded to "Bole So Nihal" with "Bruaah". That is blatantly religious elements like that shouldn't be in mixes. You have drunk guys running around the show responding to Jakara's with stuff like that. I am aware a lot of teams use it, I just don't see the purpose and I can understand why a judge would mark them down for that. I seriously doubt older people in the audience understood it was a 300 gimmick. They probably heard the Jakara and saw the battle scene and thought "wow, these kids are trying to make a religious battle scene right in the middle of a bhangra routine". There was nothing "violent" about what they did, it was just the blurring of Sikhi and bhangra that I object to.

Also, my question to teams that do it is why even put a Jakara in there? What do you hope to accomplish by doing so? More than anything it seems to me like they want a cheap crowd reaction. I am sure the guys on NYPD knew a Jakara was used before Sikhs engaged in battle. They then followed that up with a battle scene. That is just asking for controversy.

i agree that a lot of people blur the line between culture and religion, i don't see the need for jakaras or religious imagery in bhangra (khandas in team logos :-\ ) because it seems like there is a lack of understanding in some cases. people just need to be more aware of what they're doing so it doesnt come off as disrespectful and ignorant. bhangra is meant to be a celebration of culture and you can't really deny the influence sikhism has had on punjabi culture so it is tough for people to not connect the two. you do end up with some stupidity, i've heard a drunk dude yell jakara at a club, its outrageous and shows how retarded people can be, but there's not much you can personally do to kill that level of ignorance. on the opposite note if a team wants to respectfully pay homage to something related to sikhism(example: boli bout baba deep singh ji) as a part of their performance and do it in a classy manner, then they have every right to. there's nothing a team can do about drunk people in the audience or how the audience will react.

well said, how the audience reacts is not in our control.. and not our problem. You guys always do this, create HUGE debates over such small things.. we did absolutely nothing wrong and I stand by that. If we did something utterly stupid like throw a Pagg down while yelling Jo Bole So Nihaal then I understand the need for this controversy.. but your attacking innocent bhangra dancers that mean no harm and no disrespect and thats just wrong. If your offended by it, leave the room or stop watching the performance but to say that we're insulting our Sikh ancestors is just stupid as fuck.

I already have 2 strikes and countless warnings so I'm going to leave this conversation lol you guys figure it out. Congrats to the teams that placed and won awards, hope to see you guys next year!

 

[HarmanSingh]

Things that might suggest it was a 300 scene (which it was)
- we used exact replica Spartan Shields (certified )
- we created an exact replica of the Spartan Dome (we googled 300 and there are many pictures showing the dome technique)
- "all will know that 300 spartans gave their last breaths to defend it" (you don't just throw random movie quotes in a bhangra routine unless your trying to convince them of whats going on)
- The special move which is called achilles jump, originated from the movie 300 (it's in the main fight scene you can youtube it)
- nothing but AHOO's in the remix (........... are you for real do I really have to convince any more then that? no other religion caste culture or movie has used the haik AHOO before other then 300 Spartans )

Things that might suggest it was a religous battle (which it wasn't)
- 16 guys wearing paggs doing a choreographed routine with shields


The guy who deducted points for that gimmick thought exactly like you did, but he said he never seen the movie 300 so that's why we're cool with it he was LEGITIMATELY confused. But I know you have all seen the movie so please dont ever bring religion in this discussion again. Next time we'll just bring Gerard Butler up on stage. Maybe that might alleviate your confusion.

The only argument you can possibly have is the violence and that like Faizan says is debatable, IMO if you have shields on stage you need to do atleast 1 fighting move because it would be stupid if you didn't use the shield for its purpose. Some people are going to dislike it but most people are going to be blown away by it, and that alone is a solid reason to use it. We are here to win, we're not here to promote anything.


END of discussion!

I understand it was a 300 gimmick. But you should also be aware that starting a battle scene with a Jakara will obviously lead to confusion and the blurring of lines between Sikhi and bhangra. The reason that guy (and I assume many in the audience) were offended is because you let out a Sikh battle cry right before engaging in a fake battle scene. Also, I saw the routine on video. I didn't see the details of the shields and had trouble hearing the entire mix so like I said, the details might be off.

Also, you guys brought religion in when you put religious elements into your routine.

I understand the confusion, people get confused all the time it happens.. but I don't understand the crime we're being accused of.

instead of saying Jo Bole So Nihaal at the start of our routine like teams normally do we put it after our sapp segment, and for the sake of a clean mix we put in the same orchestra beat that accompanied the 300 speech because we care about that stuff and we want our mix to flow like 1 piece, we're professionals in that sense.. so that means we're going against Sikhi rules or something? are we hurting somebody? we did that Jaikara like every other team does it with the lights off and no one dancing and in full respects.. not to mention there was a whole 20 second english 300 movie scene speech that divided the two making them completely unrelated, they just had the same background music.. and the same goes for our ending speech, we did our Assi putt han Guru Gobind Singh Ji de sher just like EVERY other team around the world did it.. lights off and nobody dancing, just like any other sher I swear I can pull out countless videos.

as far as I know based off reactions 95% Of our audience loved it.. that was without a doubt our best segment ever and without a doubt my favourite stage gimmick to ever be performed.. we're not going to take it away because 5 % of our audience finds it too offensive because they don't have the ability to differentiate a 300 scene from a religious battle or because theyre just not down with the shields, we don't care about that.. funny thing is 4 people in total came up to us telling us we were portraying a wrong message towards Sikhism (???WTF) and we shouldn't have done it .. the next day on facebook is a picture of 1 of the 4 guys drinking his ass off in the club busting out his khanda tattoo thinking hes a bad mon.. you tell me whos the fool.

Sorry to say but that Jaikara is staying in there forever. It's all in your head how you react to this situation.

I am not making this into a huge issue. I don't particularly see the purpose of putting a Jakara in a bhangra routine, because it seems like a cheap way to get some crowd reaction. I also think it is the wrong time/place to be letting out Jakaras (with people drinking, fighting, etc...as evidenced by the guy recording the video responding with a lalkara) and I would not want my team to do it. But hey, you guys can do whatever you want its not the end of the world. Just be aware that you may lose more competitions like this because a gimmick like that following up a Jakara is bound to lead to confusion. You guys should expect more judges marking you down for that. And seeing as how you said you just want to win, creating gimmicks that will cause judges to mark you down seems counterproductive. It was a cool gimmick, and it could have done without the ill advised Jakara.

I haven't accused you of any crime and if someone else has freaked out on you about this then they need to gain some perspective in the world. There is no need to play the victim and get sensitive about a reasonable discussion regarding the reason you would blur Sikhi and bhangra. I think their is a big difference between using a shair like this (which has religious undertones): pagg versus using a Shabad like "Soora So Pechaniye" which is Gurbani. Similarly, using a distinctly Sikh Jakara like "Bole So Nihaal" crosses the line in my opinion. You seem to be debating with someone who has not even posted in this thread. I didn't say you insulted your ancestors or anything, I just think it was a poor decision to include a Jakara in a bhangra routine.

 

[Bharathi]

Things that might suggest it was a 300 scene (which it was)
- we used exact replica Spartan Shields (certified )
- we created an exact replica of the Spartan Dome (we googled 300 and there are many pictures showing the dome technique)
- "all will know that 300 spartans gave their last breaths to defend it" (you don't just throw random movie quotes in a bhangra routine unless your trying to convince them of whats going on)
- The special move which is called achilles jump, originated from the movie 300 (it's in the main fight scene you can youtube it)
- nothing but AHOO's in the remix (........... are you for real do I really have to convince any more then that? no other religion caste culture or movie has used the haik AHOO before other then 300 Spartans )

Things that might suggest it was a religous battle (which it wasn't)
- 16 guys wearing paggs doing a choreographed routine with shields


The guy who deducted points for that gimmick thought exactly like you did, but he said he never seen the movie 300 so that's why we're cool with it he was LEGITIMATELY confused. But I know you have all seen the movie so please dont ever bring religion in this discussion again. Next time we'll just bring Gerard Butler up on stage. Maybe that might alleviate your confusion.

The only argument you can possibly have is the violence and that like Faizan says is debatable, IMO if you have shields on stage you need to do atleast 1 fighting move because it would be stupid if you didn't use the shield for its purpose. Some people are going to dislike it but most people are going to be blown away by it, and that alone is a solid reason to use it. We are here to win, we're not here to promote anything.


END of discussion!

If you ever have Gerard Butler in your routine please let me play chimpta =) I love that guy!