Touchy subject, but great discussion

[Jeeti]

I was about to post this in the Sikhs topic, but I felt it was a bit too controversial and a good topic to be discussed separately...

Once again, I am going to take a slight different stance, so as to prevent a particularly rosy picture of the religion I identify with....

as much as we are not supposed to involve castes at all, there is no question that a great number of the older generation are very much aware of their "caste", and are bias to stay towards their own...im gonna call it an "Apney Bandhey" complex...ESPECIALLY in jatt sikh culture this is the way it is....

I feel that however ideal you all paint the picture of Sikhism, just as in other religions...there are obvious clashes between the culture and the religion (see drinking).

Is there a serious problem if you take a bit of pride in being your particular caste (proud jatt sikh)? In my opinion, absolutely not...the point of avoiding the caste was to make sure theres no judgement based on caste...

so my question to all of you...Can you be proud of being whatever you happen to be without having a bias towards your own more closely related people? If you can...then what is wrong with it?

Just to add on to the topic...Princess just posted this almost at the same time I started this topic, and is related to the question...

----Although this is true, y is it that when get their kids married most parents go by caste, its like the 1st thing they look at, even though the guru’s have stated everyone equal, why is it that our parents just don’t get that!

..It is clear why parents go by caste because those considered that particular caste are already inherently considered to share certain characteristics individually as well as within the family....Correct me if I'm wrong but the aspect of castes that was rejected by the Gurus was the fact that there should be no inequality because of what caste you are...but if our parents are using it today just trying to base it off the fact that you already seem to know more about them just by their caste then whats wrong with it? (It's like parents choosing people of Indian background over anything else for their daughter or son....same thing right?)

...That being said, everyone should be considered equal, but if you are using a "caste" to simply identify the part of India they are from or to get a sense of their family history...

THEN WHATS THE PROBLEM?

 

[Mukandpuria]

as a person I don't think there is anything wrong with it.....and Jeeti i think the caste system was avoiding in Sickism to prevent people from thinking they are bigger than others...its to give every individual an equal ground. The way it is looked at is...if you are born in a low caste you can't do anything about it to come up becuase you are marked as that form birth and for the rest of your life..and Guru Nanakji disagreed with that...and it makes sense...you can't label someone because of something that person can't control themselves(like what caste they are born into).

Summy posted something on the Jatt caste on POL a while back saying that a Jatt should not be proud to be Jatt...so it was actually written in the Guru Granth Sahib...so i guess if you follow your religion strictly you would look down upon Jatts for going against The Granth Sahib.

But if we look at the caste system as a whole and not any religion, I would say its perfectly fine to be proud of who you are and what family you belong to. This can also be a flow to....I know I hear it in USA and in Punjab, when something goes wrong between two people the pull caste into.....like "eh sale kathri ah nu ki patha." I know parents do it all the time...they use the person caste as strip them of their identity becuase its easier to generalize a person with their caste then as an individual...even when old people sit together and talk sometimes they use caste to refer to a person instead of using names....The real conflict I think comes is when you are proud to be a caste or your family name and you start considering other lower than you...thats when being proud of your caste of family name causes issues...we hear it all the time intros like Doliya ch jaan...where instead of saying "how dare he messes with me" instead the intro says "how dare he messed with a Jatt." again bring the caste system into play saying Jatts are strong and no one should dare to mess with a Jatt.(Not in anyway trying to offend the Jatt caste)

I think if a person can be proud of their caste and family name and not let it get to their head and treat people as equal, this there is nothing wrong with it....but with that being said...its impossible, becuase people get big headed, It would be nice if people looked past the Caste and treated people as individuals and not just apart of a caste.

Also a side note on the caste system...I am not sure if you guys are aware but the caste system isn't what it use to be...back back back in the day..the caste system was probably efficient enough to say if your a certain caste her or she act a certain way(back then a person's personalty closely matched what their caste was)...but now a days thats has faded away...people have become smarted and have moved around and are thinking as individual's....people have married into other castes...where as back back in the day when you could look at a caste and be like yea hes we know what hes all about because he belongs to a certain caste, you can't do it today since the caste system today is being dissolved, and people are no longer thinking as a caste but as individuals.

 

[Don]

Great topic Jeeti. I come from a jatt family myself and even though my dad is very religous and follows almost every rule of sikhi, at times he will still use stereotypes about the other castes. For instance almost all punjabi joke around with "pappa" and say that they are good with money. I guess it also depends on who you ask, I don't like to think of being a jatt, pappa, tharkan etc. as a caste but rather a life style. Jatts as everyone knows are farmers. I admit even I sometimes jokingly refer to jatts as being the most "punjabiest" (if that makes sense lol). But really i don't see any of them as beig superior or inferior to the other. When my dad talks about planning my marriage he always emphasizes that the girl has to be from a jatt family as well, but honestly I don't really care what caste she is form.
Going back to your main question, yes I think its perfectly fine to be proud of you are.

 

[Mukandpuria]

I guess it also depends on who you ask, I don't like to think of being a jatt, pappa, tharkan etc. as a caste but rather a life style.

this is how i look at it.

In Hinduism the caste system is Vertical where they higher you go you more respected you are and known...In Hinduism brahman are considered the highest case and chamar are considered the lowest cast.

In Sikhism the caste system is Horizontal...so it is not that everyone is bigger or better but equal and divided by they work.

thats how I look at it and that how I understand it....

 

[yraparla]

In Hinduism the caste system is Vertical where they higher you go you more respected you are and known...In Hinduism brahman are considered the highest case and chamar are considered the lowest cast.

Religiously that's absolutely false, but culturally accurate. The actual sloka describes the different castes as aspects of God. The last one described was the Brahmin, using the analogy of the head, or brain. In this sense it seems vertical since you start at the feet and get to the head. But really, how could God be perfect without his arms, or kshatriyas, protecting the people? Similarly no one caste was supposed to be 'better' than any other caste.

The point was the true brahmins were supposed to dedicate their lives to religion and others. They were supposed to avoid materialism and attachment (and literally beg for food) and seek to become closer to God and to help those who needed or sought out guidance. This is a noble and venerable position, so the culture gradually sought to reduce the hardships on the brahmins (i.e. prevent the need for begging), and treat them with great respect for their knowledge and wisdoms. Brahmins were supposed to be priests, guides, teachers, mentors, gurus. They were supposed to focus on morality and spirituality.

Obviously....this was corrupted. But it's still a fairly ignorant statement in my mind to say that caste in Sikhism and Hinduism are different. There are many statements by Gurus using HINDU texts (i.e. Vedas, Upanishads) trying to explain the caste system as it should be. They are not different, only culturally distinct. When arguments arise that Sikhism rejects the caste system, I personally believe it is because the Gurus recognized the pain it had caused and sought to stress the importance that all castes were equal.

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

i wrote somethin in the other thread haha. basically be proud of ur roots an all but in no way are any castes better than any other. In Sikhism specifically there aren't castes. those came before and after mostly and its jus a way for people to divide eachother. In Punjab those castes of Jatt and all mostly refer to a region someone came from or what profession they had. But again let me stress that in Sikhi there are no castes. those divides are made by Punjabi people, not the religious scripture.

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

In Hinduism the caste system is Vertical where they higher you go you more respected you are and known...In Hinduism brahman are considered the highest case and chamar are considered the lowest cast.

Religiously that's absolutely false, but culturally accurate. The actual sloka describes the different castes as aspects of God. The last one described was the Brahmin, using the analogy of the head, or brain. In this sense it seems vertical since you start at the feet and get to the head. But really, how could God be perfect without his arms, or kshatriyas, protecting the people? Similarly no one caste was supposed to be 'better' than any other caste.

The point was the true brahmins were supposed to dedicate their lives to religion and others. They were supposed to avoid materialism and attachment (and literally beg for food) and seek to become closer to God and to help those who needed or sought out guidance. This is a noble and venerable position, so the culture gradually sought to reduce the hardships on the brahmins (i.e. prevent the need for begging), and treat them with great respect for their knowledge and wisdoms. Brahmins were supposed to be priests, guides, teachers, mentors, gurus. They were supposed to focus on morality and spirituality.

Obviously....this was corrupted. But it's still a fairly ignorant statement in my mind to say that caste in Sikhism and Hinduism are different. There are many statements by Gurus using HINDU texts (i.e. Vedas, Upanishads) trying to explain the caste system as it should be. They are not different, only culturally distinct. When arguments arise that Sikhism rejects the caste system, I personally believe it is because the Gurus recognized the pain it had caused and sought to stress the importance that all castes were equal.

Sikhism was created to be a universal teaching that all religions could use for reference (not just Sikhs). Why do u think so many Hindu Punjabis go to Gurdwaras and wear Karas. Initially, they were for Sikhs and helped Sikhs many times in history especially after Sikh Holocausts. As i was sayin tho the Guru Granth Sahib is supposed to be universal for all religions. My friend explained it simply to me, u can't teach someone about something new in a different religion. THe Guru's used parts of Hinduism and Islam as reference so that society could understand what they meant in a simpler context. The Guru's never supported castes. Castes of Punjab are created by the people not Sikh theology. The Guru's often stressed ppl shuld drop these. Thats why when Khalsa was made, Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave all girls the name Kaur and men the name Singh to show unity and equality without caste.

(i accidentally put ev i said as quoted from Abhi haha)

 

[yraparla]

also in Hinduism, caste is reflection of family and occupation

so you are born into a caste, but that doesn't mean you are tied to it (you could for instance go to school, get your 'upanayam' and be Brahmin).

again, there's a divide between religion and culture. Whether it's a distinction without a difference though is a separate topic.

 

[yraparla]

agreed Naveen, that was my point exactly.

Hindu and Sikh castes are the same, so to imply differences is to highlight culture...which is not Sikhism

the Gurus consistently sought to remove the caste system due to it's progressively oppressive role in society. But it had nothing to do with religion, it had to do with culture.

 

[Sher]

The Sikh "caste system" is actually kind of the opposite of the Hindu caste system from what I have seen/experienced. Most people consider the jatts to be on top and the brahmins to be on the bottom. I have also heard that the roots of it actually go back to the British rule in India when they put the jatt Sikhs in charge.

While there is alot of history about the castes, I do not think it should matter at all. The Gurus preached against dividing the religion, but now in parts of the world like England, they have different Gurdwaras for different castes. I find this to be very disturbing.

 

[Jeeti]

The Sikh "caste system" is actually kind of the opposite of the Hindu caste system from what I have seen/experienced. Most people consider the jatts to be on top and the brahmins to be on the bottom. I have also heard that the roots of it actually go back to the British rule in India when they put the jatt Sikhs in charge.

While there is alot of history about the castes, I do not think it should matter at all. The Gurus preached against dividing the religion, but now in parts of the world like England, they have different Gurdwaras for different castes. I find this to be very disturbing.

Thats not just disturbing...thats so backwardss of what the religion was trying to get across....but for those of you that know gurudwara politics...

it usually ends up being Jatt vs Bhapey in some shape or form...and yes its completely against the religion but it happens in all gwaras all over the world.

 

[tanveer]

Question:

What are all the types of assumed "castes" that are in punjabi culture? I'm not familiar with most of 'em...

 

[sapg21]

Swi did an amazing job explaining Hinduism "caste" system. In theory it makes so much sense to have divisions of labor in society. Just in practice...

Tanveer, I'm not sure how it is in Sikhism (although I've been told they are the same castes), but in Hinduism, there are Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Sudras. Again, in theory this is a horizontal system. Brahmins are responsible for educating the society and making sure society retains important cultural values (teachers, scholars, etc). Kshatriyas are warriors and are in charge of administrative jobs in society (Soldiers, Generals, Kings, etc). Vaishyas are part of the economic sector of society (businessmen in general). Sudras are part of the service sector (Anyone from laborors, to doctors, lawyers, and engineers).

The "caste" system is really not a religious thing. It is a pragmatic solution written in the Veds on how society should effectively. Every caste has somethign to be proud of. Over time though, this all got messed up. We know what the perception of the caste system is today...

I don't know much about Sikhism. But my guess is that the Gurus saw how the caste system was being used in society today and denounced it because of the modern cultural implications of it.

 

[Sher]

In Hinduism the caste system is Vertical where they higher you go you more respected you are and known...In Hinduism brahman are considered the highest case and chamar are considered the lowest cast.

Obviously....this was corrupted. But it's still a fairly ignorant statement in my mind to say that caste in Sikhism and Hinduism are different.

Hows it ignorant? Caste in Sikhism and Hinduism are different. The caste system exists in Hinduism but doesn't in Sikhism. That seems pretty different to me.

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

haha ive said it a bunch of times not. Sikhism doesnt have castes. Jatts and all those r cultural stuff. some came before Sikhism some later. But SIkhi itself has NO castes.

 

[yraparla]

sorry sher, I wasn't clear with what I meant, but you kinda took it out of context

first of all, abhi said he understood or had heard that the caste system in Sikhism is horizontal while hinduism is vertical.

As Naveen and you have repeatedly pointed out, Sikhism does NOT have a caste system, which I understand and took care to note.

I merely meant that any perceived caste system in Sikhism is cultural, and derived from Hinduism, and therefore a distinction to me is a fallacy (on two levels, that Sikh castes exists, and that they are different from Hindu castes)

 

[Jeeti]

Summy...not to call you out or anything but you a very knowledgeable person and I'd love to hear your opinion...

As Sikhs should we even be using labels such as Jatt or Bhapey...even if they aren't intended with any malice so as not to imply inequality?

 

[Mukandpuria]

sorry sher, I wasn't clear with what I meant, but you kinda took it out of context

first of all, abhi said he understood or had heard that the caste system in Sikhism is horizontal while hinduism is vertical.

As Naveen and you have repeatedly pointed out, Sikhism does NOT have a caste system, which I understand and took care to note.

I merely meant that any perceived caste system in Sikhism is cultural, and derived from Hinduism, and therefore a distinction to me is a fallacy (on two levels, that Sikh castes exists, and that they are different from Hindu castes)

When I say horizontal, i didn't mean to say that its written in a book that its "horizontal". I was trying to help explain that the caste is equal...Horizontal= Equality....

as far as culture...I understand a caste is seprate from religion..becuase if a khatri changed his religion he will still be a khatri but follow another religion. There are numberious caste like kathri and Arora that fall under both religion and you can commonly find a Sikh Kathri and a Hindu Arora.
But I feel like there are some predominate castes that you don't find in other religions, for example a Jatt or Saini? those are only few.

 

[Meistro]

a Jatt can be sikh, muslim, hindu, etc

 

[Don]

a Jatt can be sikh, muslim, hindu, etc

lol...i swear i was just about to write this and i got that little warning saying "someone has just posted, you may wish to review before replying" lol