Mukandpuria
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ahh thats news to me...I can see how its possible but never really seen or herd of any
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Touchy subject, but great discussion
- Thread starter Jeeti
- Start date
ahh thats news to me...I can see how its possible but never really seen or herd of any
Summy
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Hey guys, sorry I didnt get to this earlier been busy these last days... I think I need to take a second to applaud Jeeti for his comments and his dedication to the issues on this site... He continues to raise issues that are important and provide his heartful opinions and always makes sure he does it respectfully. I think we all need to appreciate a person like this when we see him, so Jeeti on behalf of myself and I am sure alot of other people, I just want to say thanks for what you are doing.
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So since we are talking about Sikhi, let me start off my post with the words of Guru Nanak Mahraj Dev Jee:
"Let no man be proud because of his Jaat/Zaat.
For the man who has God in his heart, he alone is the true Brahmin.
O stupid fool, be not proud of your Jaat/Zaat, by this pride many sins arise.
Everyone says there are four Jaat/Zaat, but they are all created from the Lords seed (essence).
All men are moulded from the same clay, but the potter has fashioned it into vessels of numerous forms.
By joining the five elements, the form of the body is made, no one can say that the element is less in one and more in another"
Pg 1128 Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
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So in Hinduism, the caste system is nothing something that implied inferiority by any means. It was merely a commentary on how a successful society is to work, all people working together. In olden times, when it was practiced right, the kings had to collect tax even if they didnt want to. Khatri's went to war and were trained since a young age, because it was their duty. These are all parts of a society that will work together equally and it will be successful. As stated in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and in the Vedas, in the age of Kalyug, the meaning of religion, and god's words will be twisted to serve the downfall of humanity. So when I hear things like the caste system is vertical in HInduism, that is DEFINTELY something man made. I dont think the religion is to take the fall, when people started inplying inferiority, it was a man made thing. Krishen Jee never said one is better than the other.
As far as sikhism goes, the abolishment of the caste was because Guru Nanak Dev JI recognized this. He said to Kabir Baba Jee one day as they ate langar together, and the brahmins were served first, and ate closer to were the food was being given out, while the lower castes ate father away. Kabir Ji asked Guru Nanak Dev JI, WHY, why does this occur. Guru Jee replied with, because in Kalyug the actions of a god are being twisted...
So Guru Nanak Dev Ji was against castism completely. This is not an indication or insult towards HInduism, but only recognized that as the Vedas recognized that it has been misconstured. The most complete example of the denial of castism specfically from Guru Nanak Dev Ji? When we eat langar, we eat in a STRAIGHT line... Nobody further, nobody back. This is specfically done from Guru Nanak Dev Ji's words.
He not only thought it was wrong, he thought it was foolish. He asked why do people claim superiority in something that they dont follow... How many Jatt's do we know that farm? How many Brahmins do we know that are religious leaders in their religion? How many Khatri's do we know that are raised from birth to fight? Probably very little...
Jatt's are ETHNIC groups, and how where they mixed up with religion, is beyond me. It has nothing to do with Sikhism, it has to do with the sub-ethnic group of people, mainly in northern India. Some people say Jatt's steam from Indo-Iranians, and some people say that the Jatts stem from other ethnicties. Each "caste" in sikhi, has their own lineage. Some believe that castes in Sikhi orginate from lower India, and even down to Sri Lanka. These are all ethnic groups, religion has nothing to do with it.
I hope people are clear about this stuff.
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Is it wrong to be be proud, well read above. There is nothing wrong in pride at all, too much is too bad, but nothing wrong with it. But if you are proud in something that has a history of inferiority attached to it, why be proud? If you are proud to be a jatt who supposed to be a farming and simple man, and you are not, why be proud? If Guru Nanak Dev Ji said it is ignorant to be proud to be a jatt why be proud?
Be proud in something that one should feel deserving to be proud in...
Interested to hear people's comments
------
So since we are talking about Sikhi, let me start off my post with the words of Guru Nanak Mahraj Dev Jee:
"Let no man be proud because of his Jaat/Zaat.
For the man who has God in his heart, he alone is the true Brahmin.
O stupid fool, be not proud of your Jaat/Zaat, by this pride many sins arise.
Everyone says there are four Jaat/Zaat, but they are all created from the Lords seed (essence).
All men are moulded from the same clay, but the potter has fashioned it into vessels of numerous forms.
By joining the five elements, the form of the body is made, no one can say that the element is less in one and more in another"
Pg 1128 Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji
---------
So in Hinduism, the caste system is nothing something that implied inferiority by any means. It was merely a commentary on how a successful society is to work, all people working together. In olden times, when it was practiced right, the kings had to collect tax even if they didnt want to. Khatri's went to war and were trained since a young age, because it was their duty. These are all parts of a society that will work together equally and it will be successful. As stated in the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and in the Vedas, in the age of Kalyug, the meaning of religion, and god's words will be twisted to serve the downfall of humanity. So when I hear things like the caste system is vertical in HInduism, that is DEFINTELY something man made. I dont think the religion is to take the fall, when people started inplying inferiority, it was a man made thing. Krishen Jee never said one is better than the other.
As far as sikhism goes, the abolishment of the caste was because Guru Nanak Dev JI recognized this. He said to Kabir Baba Jee one day as they ate langar together, and the brahmins were served first, and ate closer to were the food was being given out, while the lower castes ate father away. Kabir Ji asked Guru Nanak Dev JI, WHY, why does this occur. Guru Jee replied with, because in Kalyug the actions of a god are being twisted...
So Guru Nanak Dev Ji was against castism completely. This is not an indication or insult towards HInduism, but only recognized that as the Vedas recognized that it has been misconstured. The most complete example of the denial of castism specfically from Guru Nanak Dev Ji? When we eat langar, we eat in a STRAIGHT line... Nobody further, nobody back. This is specfically done from Guru Nanak Dev Ji's words.
He not only thought it was wrong, he thought it was foolish. He asked why do people claim superiority in something that they dont follow... How many Jatt's do we know that farm? How many Brahmins do we know that are religious leaders in their religion? How many Khatri's do we know that are raised from birth to fight? Probably very little...
Jatt's are ETHNIC groups, and how where they mixed up with religion, is beyond me. It has nothing to do with Sikhism, it has to do with the sub-ethnic group of people, mainly in northern India. Some people say Jatt's steam from Indo-Iranians, and some people say that the Jatts stem from other ethnicties. Each "caste" in sikhi, has their own lineage. Some believe that castes in Sikhi orginate from lower India, and even down to Sri Lanka. These are all ethnic groups, religion has nothing to do with it.
I hope people are clear about this stuff.
-------
Is it wrong to be be proud, well read above. There is nothing wrong in pride at all, too much is too bad, but nothing wrong with it. But if you are proud in something that has a history of inferiority attached to it, why be proud? If you are proud to be a jatt who supposed to be a farming and simple man, and you are not, why be proud? If Guru Nanak Dev Ji said it is ignorant to be proud to be a jatt why be proud?
Be proud in something that one should feel deserving to be proud in...
Interested to hear people's comments
Hindu's are divided into 4 castes, in this order:
1)Brahmins, basically the highest people in society
2)Kshatriyas, the warriors/rulers
3)Vaishyas, the working class, the merchants/traders
4)Shudras, the servants and laborers...
I personally fall under the Kshatriya caste, and under this caste you have further breakdowns of people. Historically speaking, my family comes from an agriculture background, and in India these people are called Jatt(Jat, depends on how you spell it). So I'm(my family) is a pretty good example of a Hindu Jatt... Most people associate being Jatt with being Sikh, that's not true... I personally think the whole caste system is not needed, it doesn't really do any good... Back in the days people wanted to marry within their own caste and it was forbidded to marry anyone outside of it... These days, things have changed and people have opened up to marrying outside of their caste because the borders between caste have sort of been diluted a little bit...
1)Brahmins, basically the highest people in society
2)Kshatriyas, the warriors/rulers
3)Vaishyas, the working class, the merchants/traders
4)Shudras, the servants and laborers...
I personally fall under the Kshatriya caste, and under this caste you have further breakdowns of people. Historically speaking, my family comes from an agriculture background, and in India these people are called Jatt(Jat, depends on how you spell it). So I'm(my family) is a pretty good example of a Hindu Jatt... Most people associate being Jatt with being Sikh, that's not true... I personally think the whole caste system is not needed, it doesn't really do any good... Back in the days people wanted to marry within their own caste and it was forbidded to marry anyone outside of it... These days, things have changed and people have opened up to marrying outside of their caste because the borders between caste have sort of been diluted a little bit...
Well said Summy. I agree with what you said, but in order to continue this discussion i'm going to play the devil's advocate. Of course you all know/heard of how parents want their children to marry into the same caste. The reason behind this is they feel they are forced by societal standards to marry their child into a family equally as prosperous as their own family. To save face they want to find in-laws who are similar to their own background and life style. If their child does marry someone outside the caste, the community then sorts of shuns that family. The child's offspring then have a tough time finding a spouse because they are "mixed". Sadly, punjabi families will not even consider marrying their child with someone of "mixed" background. These families may be very religious and may even be gursikh, but they feel that they have to balance this with the cultural and societal rules. They don't want to lose respect in their community.
Looking forward to hear everyones thoughts.
Looking forward to hear everyones thoughts.
Jeeti
New Member
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- 974
Thank you Summy....
Everyone in this discussion has provided valuable insight...I am glad that the topic is appreciated, but it is seriously impressive how much you can learn from simply reading people's insight.
Regarding the issue, putting it the way you put it Summy, then really there is no clash whatsoever between culture and religion, and of course we must take our "pride" and be cautious with it...
Everyone in this discussion has provided valuable insight...I am glad that the topic is appreciated, but it is seriously impressive how much you can learn from simply reading people's insight.
Regarding the issue, putting it the way you put it Summy, then really there is no clash whatsoever between culture and religion, and of course we must take our "pride" and be cautious with it...
pluthra
Member
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- 296
okk woahh that post was amazing to read!!!! but i got nothin to say b/c i dont kno too much of details of the religions
but just wonderin....summy is ur major like world religions or something????
if u and jeeti paired up where jeeti provided the ideas and basically u had all the inspiration u do from ppl here and later added in ur own perspective it would be a great book....plus if u get this sort of stuff out into the mainstream im sure people would realize how silly it is to discriminate people based on an idea that exists only w/in the mind...yet its usefulness can't be proven
but just wonderin....summy is ur major like world religions or something????
if u and jeeti paired up where jeeti provided the ideas and basically u had all the inspiration u do from ppl here and later added in ur own perspective it would be a great book....plus if u get this sort of stuff out into the mainstream im sure people would realize how silly it is to discriminate people based on an idea that exists only w/in the mind...yet its usefulness can't be proven