United Nations

[pluthra]

also, if the khalistan were allowed to exist wouldnt that just arise other issues that have existed for years.....the UN allowing for the formation of khalistan would then allow for other groups to want to bring forth their issues to....like kashmir and palestine

also, what is the history of the movement now? are there groups that represent khalistan like Hamas and Hezbollah do still today?

and (2) meistro i dont understand how mecca and khalistan are similar....mecca is not under disputed territory; whereas punjab is

plus i still dont understand what the reason was for trying to break away besides the fact that it the land was owned through a treaty...yet was the debate really over religion? b/c as summy claimed in his post, "In sikhi we have no alligence to any land, or any physical properties." .....i understand why palestine and israel fight over their land their claims atleast have some stake...yet here it doesn't

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

Summy I jus wanted to comment on somethin u said (kinda digresses from the discussion). Harimander Sahib is no more holy than any other Gurdwara. You see, thats what makes Sikhi unique. The fact that the only holy place to us is within ourselves in our minds. Harimandir Sahib has a lot of significant history for Sikhism, yes but that said still Sikhs do not have a holiest shrine an no place is any holier than any other.

and also the UN is a tool. It really doesnt matter wat they believe or not believe. It is simply and idealist system that doesnt have any true power. If countries wana do somethin they do wat they want even if UN says no. most of the time other countries wont even do shit cuz they dont want it to be a drag on their econ and ev. What do u think happened in Rwanda. Plus the UN has no tangible power aka no Army.

 

[kinnell]

Summy - your posts have lately been a pleasure to read! This thread has added a lot to my perception of Sikhism (in a positive light as well) and has enlightened me further (more than Amar Chitra Kathas ever has)!

 

[Summy]

Naveen,

Harimandir has added significance because of the Akal tahkt, and because for many reasons. It is the one of the oldest gurdwara, and what Guru Ram Das put into it. It has an added significance because of its history. Holiest SHRINE, naveen, I think you missed that word. I am not talking about Gurdwara's, the semantical meaning of Shrine needs to be understood.

Oh and the UN does have a tangible force. The same force which consists of one of my friends fighting in Afghanistan for the US army's actions. That untangible force is cleaning up messes and has been assuring peace for over 50 years. The untangible force is most funded greatly by the US more than any other country. Also, the UN has immunity powers, and can pass trade restrictions, other sanctions and literally bring a country to ruins. Do not under estimate the UN powers. Countries just cant do what the want, it is not pre-UN. How can you possibly say it doesnt matter what they believe in, that is ridicolous. Do you think that whole organization is a scam or something? I suggest you read up on the history of the security counsel in the UN brother. Also read up on the international court of justice, if you dont think UN can do things to people.

Naveen that was a really uneducated statement brother, and you know your my brother. Your talking about the international governing body head. If they meant nothing, there would be reason for every single major international act to go through them eh?


The UN has immense powers, Naveen, immense.

Thanks Kinnell for your comment. Haha amar chitra.

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

Summy alot of the powers of the UN are only there in name. Yes the UN has the "power" to have trade restrictions and sanctions but when it affects a major power in the world those powers usually do nothing because the gains of supporting the UN does not outweigh the loss. Yes, the UN has significant power against smaller countries, I agree. But if the UN were to attempt to put a sanction on the US (which has no possibility of happening) no country would agree to it. The UN's does have power in writing but when it comes to controlling nations that are global powers that are huge factors in world trade countries would choose not to follow the UN's decision. Plus, those larger countries have a huge hold over the UN. The idea of the UN is great, I agree. The UN has created international norms that the world lacked years before it was created. Thus the world has a standard to look too. Imagine if the UN attempted to place a sanction on lets say Japan or China. How many countries do you think would follow the UN's guidance.

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

also the tangible force you speak of that the UN has is almost nothing. Yes countries contribute a minuscule proportion of their armies to help and some money but no where close to enough. The UN also doesn't have all of the technology the most advanced armies have.

 

[yraparla]

UN's power is security council

and the countries in it are countries that would require international consensus to challenge anyway, so it's no different then pre-UN. But, it allows a host of smaller nations to sit in and play a key role which is good

The UN is not a sovereign body, it's an administrative committee. Don't underestimate red tape

 

[Summy]

Sanctions would never put on US because the funds 22% of the UN. Chinese restrictions have been implemented. The UN also has a obligation to continue the prosperity of certain countires and not to stick their head in internal issues. Putting restrictions on the US and China would drive the global market in devastating losses and be worst then anything the sanctions would bring about. The UN are not about dictating what is right and wrong, but it is to further human rights, within the guidelines of reality. Putting sanctions on world powers would literally ruin lower end and drive the the majority of economies into diaster.

It is not whether if they choose to follow UN guidelines or not, it is the issue that does the UN have basing rights in their issues? The UN has been the most vocal leader implementing many restrictions on China because of their involvement with Darfur. Just last year, after years of going against UN suggestions, the UN treatened international sanctions on the China to whatever extent they could pull off with distrubing the powerful world economy. In 2007, suprise surprise, China passed the UN resolution for hybrid forces in Darfur.


The UN is a trmendous force, something that each and every country has to go through, including the world powers. There is a reason why the US met with the UN prior to Iraq, and why every country has to meet with the UN prior to their international actions.

The UN is not a policier. The UN has to play by the guidelines of a world economy, of the best for everyone of its members, so placing restrictions on world economic powers would be insane. That doesnt mean they are at the mercy of them. Rather, it is the other way around actually... A lot of the world power's only restrictor from running wild is the power of the UN...

Take the UN out, and you can have empire's like Nazi Germany.


The UN's army is a peacekeeping army. They don't attack, nor conquer. They have no use for an army similar to US or India's. But if you cant get the ability to use the army without UN bylaws passing, and UN permission, your army is useless. When the countries signed into the UN, they have binding argreements which can allow things out of their control to be taken from them if not agreed. If I have the bullets to your gun, the gun wont cause me any harm (unless you throw it at me really hard haha)



There you go SWI, BK veggie number one brother.

 

[pluthra]

yaa wait i dont think that the UN as a whole unit is as strong as u claim it be summy...the security council is..but the UN as a whole isnt

and also when the UN is on a peace mission i thought they weren't allowed to use force unless in the case of defense...plus if the UN were to take use force who would they side with (like in the case of Israel and Palestine) dont they have to unbiased....and plus they have so many peace operations going on and not enough forces to actually allow for the peace operations to follow through as wanted


and the UN troops aren't mostly from the US, instead "the 10 main troop-contributing countries to UN peacekeeping operations as of March 2007 were Pakistan (10,173), Bangladesh (9,675), India (9,471), Nepal (3,626), Jordan (3,564), Uruguay (2,583), Italy (2,539), Ghana, Nigeria and France" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peacekeeping#cite_note-unpko-summary-3)-bad reference-but wiki did get it from un.org)... i remember from last year that the US definetly was not in this list

-also i doubt the UN has enough funding....they have to first instigate the operation, fund it, and monitor it...and w/the amt of operations this really stretches their budget out.....

im not sayin that the UN is a entirely weak branch but it definetly does have its weaknesses....but when they do have to deal w/issues that do not involve religion/culture and where they are just focusing on development of a country they are very successful....its just how much countries would like to contribute to the global affaiirs that matters and make the UN strong/weak

 

[Naveen Singh Khokhar]

FDR started the UN. The US is a huge contributor to the UN. It holds one of the most powerful seats and has the power of veto. The US always goes through the UN (it has become kind of become part of the procedure the US takes when dealing with international affairs)

 

[yraparla]

Ya let's move this thread if people are interested in the topic

also Parul, the peacekeepers are strictly for protection and order, your'e right that they don't actively engage.

What the UN does instead is rely on sovereign nations to contribute to a cause. This includes countries' actual armies and military alliances like NATO (see: kosovo). Again, the UN is ADMINISTRATIVE. so each member of the UN peackeeping force remains a member of their own army/organization, but are coordinated by UN. Most active fighting is done by NATO and ECWAS (since most NATO members follow UN closely) and then the UN peacekeeping forces help provide protection for rebuilding or hostile areas (i.e. in the Israel Palestine case, it wouldn't be takign sides, it would be watching for any violence period but they rarely go into a disputed country so no worries)

 

[Summy]

I never mentioned anything about troops US gives to the UN. I said the US funds 22% of the UN, the most in the world. The force issue in the UN is a complex issue, at times they are allowed to use progressive force.

The UN is actually quite well funded the organization. Sepcific missions come under scrutiny (ie-Afghanistan and Darfur) but they have an annual budget of around 5 Billion dollars.

The UN does not get involved in Internal Issues of countries unless mass absues of human rights is witnessed (ie-darfur) . Their power is immense when used correctly. They have no right to question policies of countries.

192 country's are under UN jurisdiction. The UN has first rights, including the security council in allowing certain international acts. The world trade market has to abide by UN regualtions. If tomorrow, Dr. Korvorkian takes over the UN and implements wild outrageous regulations, the world economy has to abide by them (of course until they are changed).

The security council of the UN must authorize all military actions internationally. Tell me that is not power.

Under article 27 of the UN charter: Security Council decisions on all substantive matters require the affirmative votes of nine members. A negative vote, or veto, by a permanent member prevents adoption of a proposal, even if it has received the required number of affirmative votes.

They can veto any international action they please. There have been approixmately 2000 sanctions and resolutions passed in the council that denied many nations of the power they were trying to obtain.


Remember the whole Colin Powell begging at the UN security council thing for the pre-lude to the Iraq war? Showing them evidence of WMD's, anthrax and so much more? Yeah, each country has to do that to pass the council. Furthermore, the UN can deny any country, and they have, of such actions.



No country cant do anything internationally without approval from the UN, they hold immense power.

 

[Sher]

the USA has alot more power than the UN... The UN told us not to go into Iraq but were still here. So yea, nobody can do anything internationally without the UN EXCEPT the USA

 

[Summy]

the USA has alot more power than the UN... The UN told us not to go into Iraq but were still here. So yea, nobody can do anything internationally without the UN EXCEPT the USA

Actually under resolution 1441, the US got basing rights for their military in Iraq. Although the invasion was never passed by the security council, the US were told any clean up efforts would not be the UN's problem...

The war increasing to the downfall in the of America, the debt, the deaths in Iraq, the problems of the US economy... Guess who won in the end... UN or America...

Oh only if there was some governimng body to come save us in Iraq.. Some sort of body that would use their funds to break the economic pressures that a trillion dollar war has inflicted on the american people... some sort of uniting force, that could save the nation... some sort of uniting nation force of some sort.

The UN wins in the end. Everybody needs the UN, and going against them only screwed the US harder in the end. They wish they could do the same thing with Iraq that they did in Afghanistan, but the UN wont be picking up after the US on this matter.

The US funds the majority of the UN so, they do have some alligences which is probably why the Bush hasnt been charged under international law for his violations. Im not saying the UN is perfect, but they are not powerless.

 

[Somi]

I love the UN! literally...the 1st thing I visited in NY was the UN..the tour is AWESOME! AWESOME AWESOME! really recommend it.

I got this from the UN website (love that site too ;D )
just a brief

The United Nations is central to global efforts to solve problems that challenge humanity. Cooperating in this effort are more than 30 affiliated organizations, known together as the UN system. Day in and day out, the UN and its family of organizations work to promote respect for human rights, protect the environment, fight disease and reduce poverty. UN agencies define the standards for safe and efficient air travel and help improve telecommunications and enhance consumer protection. The United Nations leads the international campaigns against drug trafficking and terrorism. Throughout the world, the UN and its agencies assist refugees, set up programmes to clear landmines, help expand food production and lead the fight against AIDS.

I know there are pros and cons but UN is the best thing

just wanted to share the pic --- call me gay but I had the chills when I walked into this room 8)

 

[Nikhil]

Vick's reply from a previous post:

And Summy, the UN is pretty much run by the U.S. There are two wars going on, the UN was slapped around silly by the Bush administration, Kofi Annan was Bush's little bitch and we did what we wanted to... The UN has power over countries that don't really matter in the world... Yay for controlling Zambia or something, go flex your power there... You said they sanctioned the Chinese but made sure they didn't hurt the economy, do you honestly think the Chinese gave a flying damn about those sanctions? Do you think they care about what the world thinks? The UN is a joke... Just blow the damn thing up, no one listens to them anyways...

 

[yraparla]

Malloch Brown, the deputy-SG recently said that the United States relies on the United Nations as a diplomatic tool but doesn't defend it against criticism at home, a policy of "stealth diplomacy" that he called unsustainable.

He also lamented that the good works of the U.N. are largely lost because "much of the public discourse that reaches the U.S. heartland has been largely abandoned to its loudest detractors such as Rush Limbaugh and Fox News. The U.N.'s role is in effect a secret in Middle America even as it is highlighted in the Middle East and other parts of the world"


--I agree.

 

[Summy]

For the sake of intellectual conversations and my own personal sanity, Im not goign to answer to claims that the UN is anyone's "bitch" or blowing up the UN...

I think SWI is right, in Canada because the UN and NATO are so important to our identity, and the fact that we pride ourselves in being a peacekeeping nation, we defintely understand the UN and their powers more. Everything, in my opinion, in the states is a pissing contest. Who is stronger, who's army is better, who's this and that is better. There is no realization that a global world that relies more on unity can be beneficial for your country more than, we are better than the world mentality.

It is ingrained probably because each and every war effort employs amazing levels of propaganda. We learn in history classes now that in WW2 we see these Uncle Sam pictures, and we think to ourselves, my god did that stuff actually work on people, how stupid were they? The states today is given higher levels of propaganda, steaming from everything from main stream media to how certain communities are depicted... Nobody knew back then, and people still seem to be confused today.


The Un is another one of these organizations that is silenced in the states. When the US tried to deal with another super power in China, regarding oil deposists, they employed the UN. When the US saw an oppertunity in Africa that China was benefiting from,t hey tried to get China literlly kicked out of there, because their excess of oil was driving down the world oil demand. When it comes to leverged between the superpowers, guess who has the balance of the power? UN.


I like how people sit there are critisize the UN, its halirious. Yeah, all those people, all that money, all those peace keeping efforts, it was done by a bunch of people wasting their time.


You know how you need the UN? Your gas prices wouldnt be bitting you in the ass right now if the UN was in Iraq. Your parents wouldnt be thinking about taking loans, or second mortages if it wasnt for the UN. The UN is the clean up to american travisites all over the world. THe fact that the US went against the UN and now they need them, is the reason why they keep on investing in a mess that they created.