Views on abortion

[Varun]

walking into an alley at 2 AM, is asking for trouble. You can't sit there and tell me that walking in a back alley at night is not somewhat dangerous. yeah it is wrong if someone does get raped in a back alley. but it would be the millionth time we've heard of someone getting raped in a back alley. You can't tell me over 80% of those women didn't know its not safe to walk in a back alley at night.

I don't think people were outraged by a lack of clarity on your ideological stance on abortion (there are compelling arguments for both sides) but rather by your ignorance about rape and its occurence. The majority of rapes do not occur in back alleys or at 2 am.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

Majority of rapes happen by assailants the victim knows (many sex offenders also turn out to be relatives of the victim) and are done in proximity to the victim's house (50% happen less than a mile away from the victim's home).

The more you look at the world and outside of a narrow experience (ie. your's), you will realize 99% of life is not perfect and catastrophe-preventable. Props to you if you have not had to partake in painful experiences of rape, close deaths, suicides, poverty, evictions, hunger, mental illness, or hospitalization, but that doesn't mean you take your good experience to undermine or underwrite other people's struggles.

 

[Meistro]

Varun, you beat me to it, good points. Siddyp, once again, your logic has disappointed me. Sure, you can tell someone all you want, to take precaution, but after the crime has been committed, you can't say "HAHAHAHAHA I TOLD YOU SO, NOW WHAT". Your logic is flawed, your facts are all wrong, get it straight before you want to make such bold statements. Your whole "back alley" scenario doesnt even occur a quarter of the time and you wanna base your whole argument on that? Good job. And don't worry, you're not the only one with this mentality. Many people victim blame, but you don't understand until you, or someone you know, is the victim. Thats pretty sad and pathetic.

 

[Saab]

walking into an alley at 2 AM, is asking for trouble. You can't sit there and tell me that walking in a back alley at night is not somewhat dangerous. yeah it is wrong if someone does get raped in a back alley. but it would be the millionth time we've heard of someone getting raped in a back alley. You can't tell me over 80% of those women didn't know its not safe to walk in a back alley at night.

I don't think people were outraged by a lack of clarity on your ideological stance on abortion (there are compelling arguments for both sides) but rather by your ignorance about rape and its occurence. The majority of rapes do not occur in back alleys or at 2 am.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders

Majority of rapes happen by assailants the victim knows (many sex offenders also turn out to be relatives of the victim) and are done in proximity to the victim's house (50% happen less than a mile away from the victim's home).

The more you look at the world and outside of a narrow experience (ie. your's), you will realize 99% of life is not perfect and catastrophe-preventable. Props to you if you have not had to partake in painful experiences of rape, close deaths, suicides, poverty, evictions, hunger, mental illness, or hospitalization, but that doesn't mean you take your good experience to undermine or underwrite other people's struggles.

Bingo. Even though I fit under half of the painful experiences, the weight of each one carries on to the next and gives you a sense that things cannot be prevent or controlled, and that many situations come from various and certainly unique instances of struggle.

 

[yraparla]

Really hoping this thread would juSt go away...DAMNIT ANKUR
______________________________________________________
Varun, Meistro you're espousing the sadness of ignorance, but I think there's something important to be gleaned from Sid's perspective.

Sid's saying for whatever has happened, there are a multitude of actions and decisions involved in creating the situation and that the potential life created should deserve more consideration than just "oh it's a rape baby it's ok to kill it". It deserves the same respect and CONSIDERATION that a planned child has, that's all.

It's somewhat of a cop-out to say, I'm pro-life but it's ok in situations of rape. Yes, it was not consensual copulation that led to the pregnancy, but why should a fetus be at a disadvantage for that? If you believe a woman has a choice in a situation, it's difficult to start paring the black and white lines (what about 'emotional' rape, where she believes she's in a committed relationship but the father only wants sex and bolts even before finding out she's pregnant. What about psychological relationships? What about prostitutes who aren't paid for sex? I don't really trust our juries to handle these issues, even though that's how our system works).

Again, all I'm saying is that I think the takeaway from Sid's point is that the a fetus created from a rape should not be at a disadvantage for life. But this is the fundamental difference between pro-life and pro-choice (and it's even indicated by the title of the positions). Pro-life looks at the child and asks, what is fair for the potential life in this situation. Pro-choice looks at a situation and asks, what is fair for those who are alive and involved. Most of us try to find a balance between which perspective to take based on circumstance, but in the end the inconsistency is not fair to either the fetus or the mother. I just don't know what the solution is, so I leave it with the precedent set by supreme court justices far wiser than I.

Please, stop the vitriol, be calm, be rational, be constructive.


Oh, and for the record, I believe our society should exist de jure pro-choice and de facto pro-life. Too many studies have shown that abortions in many situations lead to serious psychological, emotional, and spiritual damage that takes years to heal. But even more have shown that forcing women into decisions through laws is not an effective solution to the question. We need to reach a ethical decision as a country based on our shared morals and values. Forcing others to adhere to our personal sense of them is foolish and unproductive.

 

[justAguy]

This whole thread has been MEN talking.

Don't you guys all think that women should just have control of their bodies? If men get to choose if they want womanize (which is demoralizing to many women), and have no legal intervention in their decisions, women should get choices too. This whole debate, although interesting, is pointless, it's really just another way of controlling women.

It's not like we're the ones getting raped or giving birth lol. I just think this whole debate should be a woman's debate, and a woman should be allowed to choose what she wants to do with her own body

 

[Saleem]

It's not like we're the ones getting raped or giving birth lol. I just think this whole debate should be a woman's debate, and a woman should be allowed to choose what she wants to do with her own body

Do only gays and lesbians debate gay marriage? Do only minorities debate racism trends? No, these are society-wide discussions and decisions that we must make as a whole, based on our morals and beliefs. I'm happy to see most people here are willing to give others rights over their bodies and lives, as I think that's how it should be. But [constructive] discussion is healthy.

 

[yraparla]

This whole thread has been MEN talking.

Don't you guys all think that women should just have control of their bodies? If men get to choose if they want womanize (which is demoralizing to many women), and have no legal intervention in their decisions, women should get choices too. This whole debate, although interesting, is pointless, it's really just another way of controlling women.

It's not like we're the ones getting raped or giving birth lol. I just think this whole debate should be a woman's debate, and a woman should be allowed to choose what she wants to do with her own body

I'll be sure to suggest a girls night with congressional leaders next time I see Sonia and Ruthie.

 

[Saleem]

This whole thread has been MEN talking.

Don't you guys all think that women should just have control of their bodies? If men get to choose if they want womanize (which is demoralizing to many women), and have no legal intervention in their decisions, women should get choices too. This whole debate, although interesting, is pointless, it's really just another way of controlling women.

It's not like we're the ones getting raped or giving birth lol. I just think this whole debate should be a woman's debate, and a woman should be allowed to choose what she wants to do with her own body

I'll be sure to suggest a girls night with congressional leaders next time I see Sonia and Ruthie.

+10 points to anyone else on BTF who actually knows who Swi is talking about. -10 points if you mention which team theyre on

 

[siddyp]

my whole point of posting was not about these http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders thankfully, nothing like this has happened close to me. These are the ones you don't see coming.

I don't live in a perfect world. I don't expect perfection. I have been blessed with good family, friends, btf members who can slap me around and keep me grounded, and moderators to wipe away the fog (thanks swizzie). As everyone else I've had horrible experiences and wonderful experiences. No need to delve deep into that.

what pisses me off about the abortion problem is the cases that have been close to me. cases of people having unprotected sex, or the ones where someone does something stupid, (ie walk down a back alley). The worst part was that I thought those people were smarter/had better morals.

yeah the back alley thing doesn't happen often I am aware. I don't base my knowledge off of movies. but it and similar occurrences have happened close to me. Yeah I was shocked and felt for the people. When the explanation was given to me of what happened I was like wtf were they thinking?? I'll see them again and only think that this person killed a baby because of their carelessness or poor decision making.

I'm not cold hearted enough to say haha i told you so, now what. But when the dust settles, I am tough enough to look at a person who did something stupid in the eye and say what my mom said to me, "That was dumber than hell. What are we gonna do about it?" Yeah it's a scarring experience and will take time to recover, but the world does not stop for anyone. No one throws pity parties for anyone. Especially when you do something stupid or careless.

I have had plenty of experiences where i did something stupid, or made a horrible decision, and I paid for it big time. All of us have. Why should that payment be written off when a woman does something stupid or makes a horrendous decision?

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders My argument cannot encompass these occurrences. My argument only assesses the rapes where a woman did something she clearly should not have done.

Abortion is a beast that will never be conquered. It's like alcohol. It has been a part of society for so long that we wont let it go, and it'll be argued forever

 

[campy614]

Oh God... I honestly do not know where to begin.

I'm gunna start from the beginning... somewhere. Sexual intercourse is one of the most intimate acts that we perform. If you think about it-there's absolutely nothing about it that isn't invasive, from a woman's perspective. A man takes his most private part (that is conveniently-for-him located outside of his body) and puts it INSIDE the most private part of a female's anatomy-key word being "inside" in case the caps didn't work for you. There's absolutely nothing "casual" about it, which is why many psychologists believe that "casual sex" between a male and a female is impossible. It is natural for a couple, in particular the female, to become attached to each other after the event has taken place (unless one partner is more experienced, for lack of a better word, than the other. This is one of the many reasons why sex is supposed to happen AFTER there's a ring on both wedding fingers-a couple can sexually mature TOGETHER).

Rape's a complete different story-it completely destroys everything that's natural and healthy about sexual intercourse. It can happen to a woman at any moment, anywhere-whether that's in an abandoned building/alley or it's on a packed subway during rush hour (in fact, many cases happen where the victim feels comfortable). It can happen between strangers, daters, or even a married couple. "Being safe" just doesn't cut it. It's not a sexual act against a woman-it's a violent one. The sexual aspect of it is only side factor-yet it's the factor that does the most damage to her. Maybe I understand this all too well because I grew up in New York, where these cases occur all too often.

I pray to God that the women on this forum and in my life, in general, NEVER have to experience an awful situation like that. Like stated before, it did happen to one of my best friends-it was awful.

In either case, whether "casual sex" or rape, a woman has a large chance or being given an unwanted fetus in her uterus. Even if protection was used (I'm giving the HUGEEEE benefit of the doubt here in regards to rape), or pills (THE pill/"plan b") were taken before/after, there's still a chance that a woman can get pregnant from either situation.

So what happens here? My Women and Theology class (all women, and then me) had to read various articles about abortion itself, life with an unwanted child, and life after the child is born.

I remember reading a pro-choice passage by a Catholic, feminist woman. She believed that, in fact, abortion demeaned women-pinning them against their fetuses, against what could grow to be potentially her own child. She said abortion minimized women in our modern society, and minimized a fetus even more.

There was another passage written by a woman who had unprotected sex and did decide to keep the child. She received help from a Catholic organization (what we call a "Mary Magdaline Home") during her pregnancy, but she wasn't offered help from this organization once her child was born and child support from the govt wasn't THAT much of a help. It didn't end well.

Can I ask you guys an honest question? If either a) a woman who was raped and got pregnant, or b) a woman who had unprotected sex and got pregnant came home and told her parents, what would happen? Would she receive any support? In a Catholic household, the probable answer to both of those scenarios is no. This happened to the woman in the second example from above, an Italian-American woman in Brooklyn, NY. It also happened to my friend, mentioned above.

So what happens for a fetus that has all odds against it? I remember the woman from passage two stating "I got all the help in the world during my pregnancy, but no one was there once the child arrived."

I, and the rest of my class-including our nun professor, am pro-choice for these women. It's not as easy as "giving away the baby," or "putting the baby up for adoption." For the woman who has support from her family and man, I sincerely hope she does the right thing. But for the woman backed in a corner, and her fetus who's chance of living a decent life is EXTREMELY slim, and for the woman who was raped and is NOT going to be able to look at her child without thinking of the pain that she has suffered-we don't live in a world where abortion can't be an option.

I would love the day that we could live in a world where abortion is an option, but we-as a society-do not need it. This was the society that the woman from passage one above described-one with a mutual respect between man, woman, and life.

But reality hurts. I guess until then, we will all have to wait.

P.S. I wrote this without talking about the "when is a fetus a human"/"a bunch of developing cells is/is NOT considered human" argument, which is honestly where a lot of my beliefs regarding the issue are formulated from.
P.S.S. I'm not writing any more on this subject. Rip it apart all you choose, but my position still stands for reasons I choose not to discuss.
P.S.S.S. And if abortion is outlawed in America, what do you think women put in this situation would do? The price of a plane ticket to Mexico/Canada/places where an abortion might possibly be legal isn't that expensive compared to the price of actually raising a child. And if that doesn't work, there's always a back-alley abortion she can get. And if that doesnt work, she can try to perform one herself. There's actually a story my Aunt told me about a girl she went to high school with who tried to give herself an abortion with a clothes hanger, and wound up killing herself. And I know some of you sick, twisted, and ignorant people are sitting back thinking "she deserved to die," but you don't want my honest opinion on those who think they're in a position to pass judgment.

 

[Kartik]

I, and the rest of my class-including our nun professor, am pro-choice for these women. It's not as easy as "giving away the baby," or "putting the baby up for adoption." For the woman who has support from her family and man, I sincerely hope she does the right thing. But for the woman backed in a corner, and her fetus who's chance of living a decent life is EXTREMELY slim, and for the woman who was raped and is NOT going to be able to look at her child without thinking of the pain that she has suffered-we don't live in a world where abortion can't be an option.

+1

Really sad that we have to debate and discuss these issues endlessly to the point that ridiculously uneducated viewpoints often gain credence solely by virtue of fanaticism and political gain.

 

[Pooja]

I have had plenty of experiences where i did something stupid, or made a horrible decision, and I paid for it big time. All of us have. Why should that payment be written off when a woman does something stupid or makes a horrendous decision?

Oh I'm sorry, did one of those mistakes involve payment in the form of a 9 month carried unwanted child?

I didn't think so.

Siddyp, your cliche "dark alley" scenario is evidence of your lack of thought and true understanding of what these situations really mean. By using that situation, you are inherently blaming the victim for the rape...and as everyone has tried to bring you away from the ignorance and explain to your patriarchally ingrained brain, that way of thinking is completely ridiculous.

The lack of compassion behind the rationale of 'pro-life' really makes my skin crawl and I think those persons do not look beyond the one fact that the fetus should not be disadvantaged.

Don't forget the future of that fetus. When it is born as a crack baby from the womb of a 15 year-old drug addict who can not even spell her own name nor does she have money for the next meal, who is going to comfort that child through the psychological, physical, emotional, and mental trauma she/he will suffer for the rest of their life? Foster Care? Adoption agencies? Not ever foster child's life turns into a dream come true with a white picket fence, older siblings and a family Christmas card.

The problem is siddyp, this has nothing to do with God. If anyone should make a choice about this child's life (or no life), it should be the individual who bore this fetus. Not you, or God, or your City Councilman, or Senator, Or Governor, or President.

I have to agree with Saleem here, as I read what you have written again, it really irks me and makes me angry. Your ignorance and superficial understanding of the topic is appalling.

The fact is, if you ever make a "horrendous decision" and walk in a dark alley at night and someone rapes you, you still won't be carrying a fetus for 9 months.