What qualifications are necessary for a Good Judge?

[siddyp]

It's being discussed in the chat box, and it should really be in here.


There have been plenty of things said in the chat box, and I'll start the discussion by addressing a few of them:


1. Having judges that are 2+ years removed from the circuit is pretty difficult. It's not hard to find a TON of good dancers that are 2+ years removed. But its hard to find those that can actually judge a competition well, and WANT to judge it well. We have plenty of qualified judges that are currently still dancing, or are less than 2 years removed from the circuit. I would trust those that actually have a tiny bit of a connection to the circuit still as their credibility is then on the line and it'll matter. If bad judging/bias judging ends up happening (and we've seen it in the past, i.e. blowout 2012) they'll get put on blast. No one with friends/connection to the circuit is going to want that shame.


2. Having competed at 30+ comps, I think I've seen it all when it comes to GREAT judges or horrible judges. So just because a dancer was an amazing dancer, and danced on a great team, and has a bunch of trophies, doesn't truly guarantee that him or her will be a great judge. To me, it's all about the feedback offered. I've received crappy feedback from those I believed to be wonderful dancers. And I've received excellent feedback from some that never even captained a team...


More or less, pretty much 98% of people that are judging the comps I have been to, have been captains of great teams, and some have more trophies than others. It's not possible to set rules such as (you must have danced for 10 years, and have 15 first place finishes.) That means nothing.


It all comes down to how good they are at offering feedback. Because if they can do that, they have the ability to properly score a sheet and deliberate. (I think this is what Ricky was referring to when he mentioned a judge should have a good IQ)


And to note: I do think that it is MORE right to have judges that are accomplished. I'm not trying to say that anyone should judge. But shit happens. Teams drop, judges drop, and comps are put in interesting situations trying to make it happen. But all in all, I haven't had many judges that aren't accomplished dancers/captains.


3. The judge must be willing to judge to the rubric. The rubric is the playing field for all teams. The results should not be altered by some bias or whatever reason a judge can think of. (blowout 2012)


So for me, a qualified judge is one that can watch a competition, be able to score a rubric in a CONSISTENT manner, and offer teams meaningful feedback as to why they got the scores/placings they got.

 

[Gurbinder Dhillon]

So for me, a qualified judge is one that can watch a competition, be able to score a rubric in a CONSISTENT manner, and offer teams meaningful feedback as to why they got the scores/placings they got.

IMO this isnt enough to become a judge, watch a competition score a rubric consistently and offer teams meaningful feedback? these are basic things there are 100s of people who qualify then.


I dont have all of the answers I am just saying, thats not enough.

 

[Sue Sylvester]

I've judged on a variety of different panels in the past few years with various types of judge and seen first hand the implication of those judges (and their respective backgrounds) on the deliberations/placings/feedback sessions. Personally, here are my four biggest criteria for an ideal, qualified judge.

1. Experience: You want people with a proven track record/history of placings/wins/memorable sets with known teams at major competitions. People who have proven themselves on the dance floor and on stage.

2. Contribution: You want the people who were the reasons that their team did well. Those who help make the sets, train the dancers and put their teams on the map. The most elite teams rarely have one person do everything, but it's important to discern the difference between someone who help shape the routine/team and someone who just danced.

3. Knowledge: You want people who have immersed themselves into bhangra and know the circuit (been involved for at least 6-8+ years). People who are thinkers and cognizant/aware of how the circuit has changed and how judging needs to evolve and improve with the changing landscape of competitive bhangra. People who know how best to balance authenticity/traditional elements of a routine with the more creative aspects, the execution of the routine vs the quality of the routine..etc. With knowledge comes the chance to appreciate the thought/little things that goes into routines, reward teams for choreographing to lyrics, penalizing teams for stealing choreography from other teams..etc

4. Ability: You want people who are able to be critical, able to analyze, discern and appreciate not only the details and nuances of a routine but look at the bigger picture in the context of the other teams & competition as well. People who are opinionated and able to justify and stand behind their assertions and placings. There's a difference between judges that give feedback that list out a few mistakes/neutral, vague generalizations that anyone could have picked up and those who give feedback that allow to team to see their performance in a different perspective and allow them to go back and improve on their performance.

 

[mrchicity]

This discussion of the philosophy of judging is great, but it doesn't mean much to competitions who don't know who those judges are. Someone should make a list or ranking of judges, the best ones will obviously have all of the aforementioned attributes.

 

[siddyp]

So for me, a qualified judge is one that can watch a competition, be able to score a rubric in a CONSISTENT manner, and offer teams meaningful feedback as to why they got the scores/placings they got.

IMO this isnt enough to become a judge, watch a competition score a rubric consistently and offer teams meaningful feedback? these are basic things there are 100s of people who qualify then.


I dont have all of the answers I am just saying, thats not enough.

I should clarify: Someone who is qualified isn't necessarily the best option. But one that is CAPABLE of doing it. And I disagree that there are 100's who can properly do all the things mentioned...

At the end of the day, competitions go after the best judges first and see if they can get them. Each competition has certain limitations and resources. They might not be able to fly in judges. Some judges may agree to judge, and then drop out later. Soon enough, you're out of the "best" options. That's why I said it the way I did.

Sue's qualifications are pretty on point. And do describe an "ideal" judge. But unfortunately, rarely anything in life ever happens in the most "ideal" manner...

 

[mafzal]

How about competitions covering judges travel expenses? That can limit the judging pool, to who can afford it or who is closer geographically. I'm not speaking about any competition in particular - some reimburse their judges and others do not. But perhaps better budgeting to help cover judges travel expenses (nothing outlandish... an $XX airfare stipend plus hotel is greatly appreciated) can bring a comp one step closer to getting the best judges

 

[mafzal]

4. Ability: You want people who are able to be critical, able to analyze, discern and appreciate not only the details and nuances of a routine but look at the bigger picture in the context of the other teams & competition as well. People who are opinionated and able to justify and stand behind their assertions and placings. There's a difference between judges that give feedback that list out a few mistakes/neutral, vague generalizations that anyone could have picked up and those who give feedback that allow to team to see their performance in a different perspective and allow them to go back and improve on their performance.

^ Huge


Passion- You want someone who puts as much effort and dedication into their role as a judge/observer as the teams are putting on stage. It's not an easy job. Diligently taking notes, watching 10 teams in a row like a hawk, providing thorough and detailed follow up, truly caring about providing the most accurate placings, allowing teams to reach out after the comp... That's a passionate judge and adds value for teams

 

[mafzal]

This discussion of the philosophy of judging is great, but it doesn't mean much to competitions who don't know who those judges are. Someone should make a list or ranking of judges, the best ones will obviously have all of the aforementioned attributes.

Good point! Teams can provide feedback to competitions about the judges panel. That can be compiled and posted on BTF? We have "comp feedback threads"... this could be incorporated. Just gotta keep it objective


Also - Swi built that site Bhangrajudges.com but i think it is frozen now. Maybe this can be a BTF project?

 

[Ricky]

Let me just say one thing the reason the way Bhangra is today is because of recent judges within the circuit, Its why you keep seeing the same thing over and over to the point where watching Bhangra videos is not even the same anymore. These judges don't allow for Bhangra to evolve. Teams are taking less risk just for that 1st place.

Take elite 8 for example back when that competition came out it was all about who was going to bring the craziest set , see something never seen before in bhangra watch this year its going to be about who has the simplest set and can be super clean and doing mediocre bhangra.

 

[Worlds Best Bhangra Crew]

Ricky,

We hope that you can make it to WBBC this year. We have gone to great lengths to foster sets that promote folk Punjabi culture and which include game changing ideas. Our rubric is designed to reward creative ideas and strong dancing. For a list of judges, please see our website www.worldsbestbhangracrew.com

We hope to bring the spirit of 2008-2011 back this year. That is our goal.

-Faizan

 

[Basim]

This discussion of the philosophy of judging is great, but it doesn't mean much to competitions who don't know who those judges are.

I believe this sentence from mrchicity is spot on. I personally feel there is a large disconnect from many competitions organizers/committees to find proper judges.

While we, as a community/forum, can put together a list of judges who we feel qualify according to certain criteria... it's really up to the committees to choose and select who they best think would follow the rubric and follow the "theme" of the competition (i.e. A folk competition that has live teams wouldn't select some judge that has only experience with modern teams... and vice versa).

Maybe putting together a general list of people's name with their respective experience, affiliations, etc and whether they are still "active" with competing or not is a good idea. Also, maybe even adding in a comment if they follow the bhangra scene or not might be good idea.. I think that might be important so a judge can discern if some aspect of a routine is a copy of something done or is really showing a team's "creativity."

Budget issues are also an important topic as Mariam suggested.

I think we have plenty of people in the bhangra world who would make excellent judges - it's that disconnect between the competitions and the bhangra circuit that is tough to bridge.

I'm all for helping to put together some criteria or a general list of individuals! Maybe in BTF 3.0, we could even have a form that's incorporated into the forum where people could fill out info if they are interested in judging.. it could be tied's to each person's profile and you could edit it (i.e. if you did something else bhangra related, one could add to it.. or if your location changes, one could update the city & state where you currently reside).. the committees could get on BTF and reference that database to figure out the type of judges that would fit their style of competition best.

Just random thoughts that are crossing my mind,

~ Basim

 

[Gurbinder Dhillon]

Dancers these days have affiliations with multiple teams, as long as that persons current team isn't competing at that exact competition I don't think it should stop them from judging. It's bhangra who the hell is enough of an asshole to score teams lower because of grudges, it's stupid. I rather have an elite level current dancer from a rival team judge me over someone who isn't as qualified. Agree with sue on the rest.

 

[mrchicity]

Dancers these days have affiliations with multiple teams, as long as that persons current team isn't competing at that exact competition I don't think it should stop them from judging. It's bhangra who the hell is enough of an asshole to score teams lower because of grudges, it's stupid. I rather have an elite level current dancer from a rival team judge me over someone who isn't as qualified. Agree with sue on the rest.

Seriously, the other judges for a given comp should provide a system of checks and balances anyway.

 

[siddyp]

^^ +1

 

[Armaan Kapoor]

Ricky,

We hope that you can make it to WBBC this year. We have gone to great lengths to foster sets that promote folk Punjabi culture and which include game changing ideas. Our rubric is designed to reward creative ideas and strong dancing. For a list of judges, please see our website www.worldsbestbhangracrew.com

We hope to bring the spirit of 2008-2011 back this year. That is our goal.

-Faizan

This.


The WBBC Rubric this year is by far the most comprehensive, structured, and well-thought out rubric I have ever seen at a competition. For all those competition organizers looking to step up their rubrics, eliminate biases, and such, I really recommend reaching out to Faizan, Ankush, or any other member of the WBBC committee.

 

[Worlds Best Bhangra Crew]

It's all about transparency.

Disregard the final page of the upper and lower level. It was included in this PDF by error.

-Faizan

 

[Nirpaal]

Ricky oyeeeeeeeeee

Took a guy who was bored at work to spark up a useful discussion

 

[Aditya]

2 things I'm gonna add:

1. We should have judging reviews the same way we have comp reviews. But I don't think any teams are going to publicly say anything negative about a judge for fear of either getting screwed over by that judge at a future comp or coming across as a whiny, butt-hurt team. There should be a way to get this information while allowing teams to maintain anonymity.

2. One of the biggest problems I've seen with judges isn't the fact that they're biased, but the fact they won't even admit or realize that they are. Bias will always influence how a judge scores and reviews a team no matter what the rubric says. The question is whether or not a judge is smart enough to realize that they lean more folk, modern, etc. and be self-aware enough to not penalize another team for not completely conforming to their pre-conceived idea of what a team should do.


Example: Telling a co-ed team that they didn't place because they didn't do enough cutesy, guy-girl interaction.

 

[hardeep_singh]

"correcting" flaws in judging isn't gonna make the bhangra circuit any less mediocre

 

[sartajjudge]

Being born.