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300+ dead in 2 days, GAZA STRIP

faizan

Just shut up and dance
Messages
1,736
What right does anyone have to tell Hamas to stop the violence? Like Malcolm X said, they diddn't land on plymouth rock, plymouth rock landed on them...how can you fuck up a land and then have the audacity to tell people how to resist? Hamas is wrong in killing innocent Israelis, but the simple fact of the matter is this, even if the Palestinians adopted an Ahimsa style revolt, Israel would never give the Palestinians what they want or what they have lost. They are treated like dogs, and who would ever give a dog a mansion? (minus weirdo old ladies from the upper east side)

As long as the Israeli and Jewish lobbyists run this country, there will never be any kind of justice for the Palestinians. Peace does not rest on the shoulders of Hamas' desisting from violence, it rests on a fair foreign policy from America. This will never occur unfortunately, mostly because Muslim's are unmotivated and largely uneducated. There are 1 billion plus Muslims, and they have the power to win control through the media and through politics, but they are too divided (Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt etc.)

The situation sucks, and sadly will probably remain the same through our lifetime.
 

Jeeti

New Member
Messages
974
Faizan, violence from Hamas is only leading to more Israel retaliation and more deaths of innocent Palestinians..is that enough of a reason to stop the violence? I certainly think so.
 

faizan

Just shut up and dance
Messages
1,736
I agree it is a reason to stop, but my argument is that the cessation of violence will not solve anything for the Palestinians either.
 

Kenny89

New Member
Messages
31
i think everyone interested in this situation should definitely read this article...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/johann-hari/the-true-story-behind-thi_b_153825.html

its not written by any arab/muslim media so i hope that answers weather or not it's written with a bias or not. also, everyone seems to keep forgetting the reason why hamas was attacking israel witht heir rockets in the first place. israel gave back gaza and it was all over the news, but no one showed how israel had put one of the worst blockades in history on that piece of land by refusing the 1.5 million people there basic necessities such as gas, food, medical supplies, etc. what else do you want hamas to do? sit there and be treated like shit by the israelis? but once again this blockade wasn't shown on the news because it's not worth the governments time because israel was prospering as usual and the palestinians were dying off as usual. and jeeti hamas said they would recognize israels right to exist ONLY if they would move there troops out of the occupied lands and go back to the 1967 borders. that's not too much to ask for because it was their land and they would've been the end of this situation, but israel ignored the request like they do from the UN and the whole world and built their settlements on all the new land they acquired. israel does so many things that have been shunned by the UN and other leading countries yet they are never reprimanded over their actions because the US constantly takes their side and uses its veto power in the UN to overrules any action that should be taken on the israelis.

i could go on forever but i'd rather not. i just wanted to state some facts real quick.
 

Temurzai

New Member
Messages
397
jeeti it wont SOLVE ANYTHING. palestinians are dying there in ridiculous numbers everyday. the only reason anyone ever gets into thinking bout all of this or watching the news on any of this is when an Israeli is killed. cuz thats the only time it makes the news.

sure, hamas can stop, but that will do nothing for the palestinian people. and dont assume the palestinians of gaza are totally against hamas. again the way u worded that last quesiton just makes it seem like the typical persons mind. aroused to the situation only when an israeli has been killed (cuz thats when it becomes big news), and believing that true peace is if HAMAS stops. preposterous. innocent civilians die no matter WAT hamas does, if they stand still and quiet, or if they fire rockets. the number just increases if hamas fires.

the fact of the matter is, america and england believe an israeli life is more valuable than a palestinian or lebanese life. they dont show the full story here. nor will they ever.

please watch george galloway when he did the interview on sky news back durin israel's war with lebanon in 2006. thats a smart dude, vs a typical biased zionist reporter.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=249JaIaubVw
 

Jeeti

New Member
Messages
974
Thanks for the information guys, without realizing it myself, my thought process seems to be driven by what I hear in western media...whatever the case, loss of life on either side is tragic...it goes without saying that something must be done.
 

Temurzai

New Member
Messages
397
Akshay said:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/02/israel.gaza/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

CNN dude? are u serious?

**im modifying this post to add a video link**

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wy5v2RzzfHk
 

Kamran786

New Member
Messages
49
Taiym?r said:
Jeeti said:
No doubt Tai that Palestinians have been treated unjustly...but where does it end? Do you see Israel conceding? I understand your perspective completely, but what if continuing to fight only leads to more Palestinian casualties where does it end? From your perspective, someone more familiar with the atrocities committed by Israel, what is the solution in your opinion?
when israel finally is forced to follow the resolution of 1967. its THAT SIMPLE.

but oh yea, they wont be forced, cuz Zionists control every body of power needed to keep Israel out of jail.
Exactly. Its plain and simple. Every generation Israel takes more and more land and breaks more International Laws and UN resolutions.
If Israel wants peace we only ask for all land back from 1967. That is not much to ask for. They still get to keep a lot of land if this happens.

The Israelis want to do to the Palestinians as the Americans did with the First Nations Tribes. Keep huddling them like sheep into smaller and smaller settlements until Palestinians live on crappy and small reservations.

Just looking at history shows how this disgusting pattern of greed works. Palestine will see peace the day Israel gives back all of the land they have stolen in 1967 and begins to follow international law.

No one is above the law. Not the U.S., not Israel. All empires that have acted so corruptly have seen their fall. So if bloodshed continues it will only be a matter of time when Israel sees its own fall. No empire is immortal.
 

Jeeti

New Member
Messages
974
Yeah I was kinda hoping Israeli troops on the border was just a scare tactic, but they have officially begun moving into Gaza. This is only gonna get worse before it gets better...The way Gaza is laid out, it would seem very difficult for Israeli's ground military to move around...there is very narrow streets and tons and tons of buildings...This show of aggression has also somewhat changed our country's stance on the conflict...should be interesting to see how this plays out.
 

Kamran786

New Member
Messages
49
Jeeti said:
Yeah I was kinda hoping Israeli troops on the border was just a scare tactic, but they have officially begun moving into Gaza. This is only gonna get worse before it gets better...The way Gaza is laid out, it would seem very difficult for Israeli's ground military to move around...there is very narrow streets and tons and tons of buildings...This show of aggression has also somewhat changed our country's stance on the conflict...should be interesting to see how this plays out.
For sure. I am hoping the Palestinian fighters have something clever for this battle. Gaza is their neighborhood and I hope they are able to use it to their advantage. Pro Israelis keep yelling at Hamas for being based in areas with a lot of people. But what choice do they have. I mean there is no area with a Sparse population in Gaza. 1.5 million people in a small strip of land. Sick how the Israeli government tries to turn this thing around by saying Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Thats another discussion itself though.
 

Kamran786

New Member
Messages
49
Lets put it this way.

The state of California is 20x the size of Israel.


Gaza strip is not even a fraction of Israel

http://images.nationmaster.com/images/motw/middle_east_and_asia/natural_resources.jpg

See for yourselves.

The Gaza strip alone holds 1.5 million people.



I just thought its an important fact to point out when debating with a Pro Israeli because a common point they try to make these days is:

Hamas is the enemy and traitor, they cave themselves into areas with dense populations and use civilians as shields. Therefore it is not the IDFs fault that so many civilians are dying.


Fuck that. There is no place in Gaza that Isn't dense.
 

COMTONDAJATT

mint gumri
Messages
302
Mr Gandhi had a nice quote a long time ago that pretty much sums up my feelings. First time I can ever say that about him, hahah

?Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.? Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in ?A Land of Two Peoples? ed. Mendes-Flohr.
 

Kamran786

New Member
Messages
49
COMTONDAJATT said:
Mr Gandhi had a nice quote a long time ago that pretty much sums up my feelings. First time I can ever say that about him, hahah

?Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs... As it is, they are co-sharers with the British in despoiling a people who have done no wrong to them. I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting what they rightly regard as an unacceptable encroachment upon their country. But according to the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing can be said against the Arab resistance in the face of overwhelming odds.? Mahatma Gandhi, quoted in ?A Land of Two Peoples? ed. Mendes-Flohr.
Exactly

If the Jews wanted to move to Palestinian they should have done so like any other normal human being without any special privileges.

This would mean that instead of stealing homes and land they would have to buy the homes and land from Palestinians who were willing to sell their homes and land. Instead of bulldozing Palestinian homes they should have found vacant land to purchase and build on. No one is above the law.
 

Temurzai

New Member
Messages
397
i dont wana use the term 'Jew' vs 'Arab' cuz frankly, its not about arabs vs jews. there are numerous jews in the USA, UK, Canada, Israel, Iran, etc that wish and hope for the DOWNFALL of Israel. this is about the Zionist regime. not against Jews in general. i have plenty of jewish friends who are shocked and appalled at Israels actions, and have joined anti-israel protests and called home in iran and israel to family to help protest against the STATE of Israel.

ps please do read this... im putting the link below, and then copied the article from the link and pasted it below the link for the ones who are too lazy to click...


http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Statements/20080219_nasralla.cfm


Zionist Massacre in Gaza
January 2008

Following is a letter that was sent from Neturei Karta
to His Excellency Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah:
February 19, 2008
To His Excellency Sayyed Hasan Nasrallah
To the Distinguished People of Lebanon

Assalam Alaikum

May the Almighty's blessings be on all of you, your families, and all our esteemed brethren in Lebanon.

We speak to you as the voice and messengers of true Jewry ? the Jewish people, true to the Almighty's Torah, from around the world.

Less than a month has passed since we have addressed an open letter to Dr. Al-Zahar, and the people of Gaza and the rest of Palestine.

In this letter, with the help of the Almighty, we expressed our hurt, sorrow and frustration in regard to the atrocities perpetrated by the wholly illegitimate (according to the laws of the Torah, the Jewish Law) state of "Israel."

We stated that we have addressed Dr. Al-Zahar personally to offer our condolences and commiserate with his loss. We further stated that in truth we should be offering our condolences to every family that has incurred a loss through this evil entity, the Zionist state of "Israel", but tragically the list of victims is daunting. What we should have stated is that we should personally write and personally visit each and every inhabitant of Gaza and the entire Palestine to express the feelings of our hearts and our entire being, our sorrow, felt at the suffering of this innocent nation at the hands of an entity that is declared, ruled, and sealed by the Holy Torah and our Rabbinical authorities, as totally forbidden.

Furthermore, all the Palestinian people, their relatives and offspring, spread out around the globe, must hear and feel our empathy, our support, our constant and intense prayers offered up to the Almighty, for them. For after all, we know that every one of these people has been deeply affected by the Zionist State.

Your Excellency, Sayyed Nasrallah, our feelings in regard to the people of Lebanon, are exactly the same.

We have heard you speak just recently at the funeral of the assassinated Mr. Imad Mughniyah and many times previously. Hence, we know that you and your organization are deeply aware that there is a distinct difference between Zionism and Judaism and that there is a large segment of Jewish people, whether in occupied Palestine or throughout the world, who are entirely opposed to Zionism and the state of "Israel".

Further, a delegation of our Rabbis were guests in your magnificent country of Lebanon, and were hosted by your organization, the Hezbollah. We were there to attend the Conference of the International Union of Parliamentarians for the Defense of the Palestinian Cause.

The respect and graciousness that was extended to our group was beyond exemplary. At that time, thanks to the Almighty, we had the opportunity to see and experience at first hand, the fact that the Arab and Muslim people despite their long-suffering at the hands of Zionism have not fallen prey to the influences of evil.

We were confronted with love and friendship wherever we turned. Concern for our comfort was the first priority of every individual, wherever we traveled throughout Lebanon. Only then, after these good people were assured of our well-being, were we shown the suffering that they have incurred through the Zionist occupation. To our surprise and to their praise, this was all shown to us, without any accusations directed at our Rabbis or the Jewish nation.

The Muslim and Arab people obviously still remember that we don't have a religious conflict and that we have co-existed in harmony for hundreds of years. Many obviously understand the difference between Zionism and Judaism.

May we just mention three very moving experiences that we had in Lebanon that has left an indelible impression on our hearts.

We went to the former Khiam detention center and saw the shocking tortures that the Lebanese have suffered so many years, and that the world ignores. (We have heard that the Zionists destroyed this detention center entirely in the recent incursion in Lebanon to obliterate any memory of these tortures.)

We visited the sad confines of the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps; we spoke to the Palestinian people there and lit candles at the Martyrs Square, where the infamous massacre was perpetrated. At these two places our tears flowed at these needless and tragic sufferings that are ongoing and are contrary to any logic or human rights (which we refer to as Godly rights).

Then we had the opportunity and the privilege of holding a demonstration against Zionism and the state of "Israel", right across the Zionist occupation, at Fatima's Gate, the connecting point of Lebanon and the Zionist occupation. Of course, many of our brethren who reside in the Zionist occupation constantly demonstrate against the state from within at great personal cost. They are brutally beaten or arrested, etc.

Also, we want to make you and our brethren, the people of Lebanon, aware that after the recent Zionist attack on Lebanon, Jewish people throughout the world joined in demonstrations in support of the Lebanese people. In Canada, U.K. and the U.S. we of the religious Jewish community had our Rabbis speaking at almost all the main rallies to express our vehement condemnations and opposition to the cruel and murderous attack on Lebanon. This was beside the demonstrations that were orchestrated solely by our Jewish religious communities globally(1).

We now turn to Your Excellency, Sayyed Nasrallah ever so humbly, and ask you to accept our words and to convey these words with the following message to the citizens of Lebanon and to the Palestinian people in refugee camps in your country.

May we reiterate that we speak to you as the voice and messengers of true Jewry ? the Jewish people, true to the Almighty's Torah, from around the world.

Although we are limited in the means of expressing our deepest and true feelings, by the barriers of words, nevertheless, the Jewish people humbly offer to you and all of Lebanon, Gaza and the entire Palestine, a few words, to attempt to convey our support, deepest sorrow and heartfelt sympathy that we all feel for you, in this present tragic and traumatic time.

Once again may we state it would be only proper and fitting, that we personally write to and address each and everyone who has fallen victim of the Zionist state of "Israel". Unfortunately and how tragic, the list of victims is daunting.

May our few and humble words be a message of consolation, friendship, loyalty and support to you, the people of Lebanon, and to the people of Gaza and the entire Palestine.

True Jews around the world, of course including in the entire Palestine, never have and with the help of the Almighty, never will accept the ideology of Zionism and never will recognize the realization of its heretical plan, the state of "Israel".

Our sole bond is with the Almighty and His Torah. Our sage's state that we are required to emulate the Almighty, "just as the Almighty is compassionate, so are we to be compassionate."

We always have and always will, with the help of the Almighty, remain unaffiliated and estranged from this aberration and the will of Satan, "Zionism and the state of Israel".

May we remind you, that the Almighty has clearly and explicitly commanded us, the Jewish people, since the destruction of the temple, around two thousand years ago, to be humble and loyal citizens in every country in which we reside. Furthermore, we are not to rebel against nations, we are not to attempt to end our exile. We are forbidden to create our own state or own entity.

We are to pray for, yearn for, and wait patiently for, the day when the Almighty will reveal his glory throughout the world.

At that time, all humanity together, will go up to the Holy Land, in harmony and brotherhood, to serve the Almighty in joy and peace.

Around one hundred years ago, the Zionists began arriving in Palestine in order to bring to fruition the realization of their dream, the transformation of Judaism from a religion into a nationalism. And so began the sorrowful and bitter history of the rebellion, the mutiny against the Almighty, which eventually evolved into the illegitimate state of "Israel".

Since the creation of the state of "Israel", the Palestinian people and at a later date, the Lebanese people have continuously suffered indescribably. They have been oppressed, beaten, murdered, humiliated, displaced and expelled.

Although, this letter and the present moment, is not the proper place and time to delve into the issue of our personal suffering at the Zionist regime's hands, still we feel it is necessary to bring these facts to the Arab people's attention. Our sages state that to know that many people share ones suffering, alleviates the suffering somewhat. Also, it is to demonstrate to all, the sincerity in our opposition to this tumorous growth on the Jewish nation ? the so-called state of "Israel".

Therefore, let us state that since these sinners and atheists, Theodore Herzl and his cohorts, raised their repugnant voices in promulgating their ideology of the devil, the heresy of Zionism, Jewish people too, have suffered indescribably both physically and spiritually at their hands.

Our G-d fearing brethren throughout the entire Palestine, have been and are continually beaten, murdered, imprisoned and oppressed, since the beginning of Zionism up until today(2). They are and have always been the victims of these same perpetrators of evil, who are oppressing the Palestinian and Lebanese people.

Let it be known that our true leaders, the Rabbis and Sages in Palestine, the Middle-East, Europe, and throughout the world, have vociferously and most fervently expressed their total opposition to Zionism and the state of "Israel", since its inception. They have decried and condemned all the evils that it has wrought, the oppression of the Palestinian people, and more recently the Lebanese people. They have decried the oppression of the religious Jews and the state of "Israel's" constant attempts, at eradicating and destroying anything that is G-dly and religious. They have tirelessly and fearlessly publicly demonstrated, at great self sacrifice, their opposition to this rebellion against the Almighty.

Countless edicts have been issued from our saintly leaders requiring the Jewish people, true to the Almighty and His Torah, to distance and estrange themselves from this sinful and illegitimate state of "Israel" and all the evils that emanate from it.

Thank the Almighty their message has been heard around the world by many God-fearing Jews and they have obeyed. What's more, untold thousands have stood by their Rabbis and many thousands continuously demonstrate fearlessly, till today, throughout occupied Palestine and throughout the world, against the state of "Israel".

All of the above is well documented, but stifled by the powers of the Zionist media control and by the intimidation of all who dare to confront or reveal the truth(3).

One more issue is important to mention, beside the many commandments in the Torah of doing good and the requirement of emulating the Almighty "just as He is compassionate, so must we be", and besides the clear prohibitions against Zionism. We are exceptionally sensitive to the Palestinian and Lebanese people's plight, for we the Jewish people, have just recently experienced extreme discrimination and all the tragic sufferings in the concentration camps in Europe. Our close relatives have suffered indescribably and died there. Also we know and have experienced what it means to be displaced as we have all been uprooted from our original homes and dwellings throughout Europe. This of course compounds our understanding and feelings for the Palestinian and Lebanese suffering.

To date, it seems to our human and limited comprehension, that this evil entity, the state of "Israel", will, G-d forbid, never cease to exist and it will continue to exude its evils, on the innocent and G-d fearing people under its control.

However, remember and comfort yourselves, our brethren in Palestine and Lebanon, there is a great and exalted, benevolent, Master of the Universe, who truly controls the world. He can and will end this suffering!!

In the Torah it states, that transgressing against the Almighty, will not be successful. This state of "Israel", according to the Almighty's Torah, must and will eventually end.

Let us all pray and beseech Him, to bring about the total, peaceful and speedy dismantlement of this illegitimate state soon in our days. With the Almighty's benevolence, may He make this happen, without any further pain or suffering. Amen.

Please convey this message to each and every one of your brethren suffering under this oppression of "Zionism ? Israel". Especially important, please convey this message to the bereaved relatives of the fallen victims, the wounded and maimed, and most certainly to the ones languishing in Israeli prisons and to the ones lying in pain in hospitals.

Convey to them our solidarity and words of comfort and support. We are humiliated by the actions of those who use our name, and our hearts are rent by what is happening to them.

We implore you to convey the message to the people in Lebanon and Palestine, that there are untold thousands of Jews worldwide and in Palestine who stand with you and who entirely oppose Zionism and the state of "Israel" and bear no responsibility for the actions of the Zionists. Educate your people that when you meet Jewish people, do not consider them your enemy. We all serve the one God.

Once again, we constantly pray ? worry and hope for you all.

May we merit to see soon in our days, the total, speedy and peaceful dismantlement of the state of "Israel".

May the Almighty bring upon us the words of His prophecies when all men will serve Him in harmony, peace and joy. Amen.

Assalam Alaikum
Very truly yours,


Rabbi Moshe Dov Beck
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss
USA, Canada

Rabbi Meir Hirsh
Palestine

Rabbi Ahron Cohen
United Kingdom
 

Saab

Today is a gift
Messages
991
I have no idea if this has been touched on or been put forth, but from what I was taught by history professor at school goes along the following.

-Following zionist expansion when Jews started settling down in palestine after receiving British Aid, they proceeded to buy property from Palestinian Land-Owners, as Palestinians lived off of a policy of subsitence and tenant farming where wealthy land-owners sold property that were being worked on by there tenants. However, this obviously wasnt widespread, but consequently led to the initial concentration of the Jewish population as British authorities placed restrictions on how many Jews could emmigrate(I believe that the restriction meant that only the very wealthy could escape the restriction, hence the apparent ability for them to buy tracts of land). This being said, some of the land that was "taken" by the Jews was bought from the wealthy Palestinian land-owners. When the war broke out amidst Palestinians and Jews, the subsequent individuals who had bought that land were key financiers and used there funds to help the military evict the other Palestinian owned land. The details were sketchy, since I didnt pay my teacher much heed after he told me Hinduism is monotheistic to my face(and I argued with him)

What really saddens me about all of this is that there was no need for any of this to occur if European countries had protected their Jewish populations form intolerance and religious persecution. The use of Jews as a foil to the established Christian religions in the area were major factors in their Zionist movement. The really sad part is that the intolerance that caused Zionism not only was an indirect cause for this, but also a potential building block to full-scale war in the Middle East. I am not playing favorites to either side, only trying to recount what I have heard and learned (Sketchy at best) and try to come to grips with the fact that although the world has progressed so much today, I still have to watch it burn for something simple as sheer ignorance.

Ram Mahalingam

If you want to pm or anything about what I said please feel free. I did not mean to offend, only to join the discussion and offer points for the discussion
 

Kamran786

New Member
Messages
49
The Gaza attacks are getting more intense. The numbers are rising.

I know a lot of you are out there posting links on Facebook and going to Protests , but that only goes so far.
Has anyone sent out any money to the Gaza victims yet? If not I plead that you do so.
 

oJaLa

Bhangra makes the world go round
Messages
409
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4&feature=channel_page

Here we are.
 
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