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Bhangra Bash Judging

Meistro

Asi Shounk Nu Karaiyaan Muschaan Kundiyaan...
Messages
2,065
Wow what a mess. Im really disappointed with how politics has made Bhangra in the Vancouver circuit. The same thing happened last year when sunpreet from soormay was a judge. He was chilling with UBC girlz and United all weekend. Guess who placed first and second? First: united, second: UBC. Its all politics.

I don't mean to be an ass right now, I have friends on PANJ, I was a member of the team at one point. Its not their fault so its nothing against them at all. Im sure they had a sick routine and they might have deserved to place regardless, but one can't help but think that there was definitely something going on between Mandeep/Jora judging and PANJ placing. It should be a RULE: IF A JUDGE OR JUDGES AT A COMPETITION ARE IN ANY WAY AFFILIATED WITH A TEAM, THEY SHOULD NOT BE JUDGES!!!...........especially in this case! UBC Girlz, PANJ, and UNITED all practice at the same facility! PANJ and United have been swapping dancers!

From what Im hearing, Jawani had an unbelievable performance from people who have respected opinions around the bhangra community. The reason why they didnt place: Jawani didn't have the hook-up and came up short. Bash has never been a competition with credible judging, although I had a blast of a weekend last year. Theres just too much bias in their judging.

Also, commenting on the UBC girl judge afraid of Jawani's success: Jawani is better than UBC and they will only get better.
 

itnom

New Member
Messages
57
NDbhangra87 said:
Agreed.So pretty much from what im seeing,saw at bash..Jawani got screwed.What this competition does not realize is that everyone now knows what this competition is really about.I cannot really comprehend why they would use jora.aside from mandeep.They both should NOT have agreed to judge.If ubc is doing bruin i can see why she would say yes.I dont know if jawani was applying to bruin but She is obviously afraid of being beat by the infamous girls.So she must of docked them so she wouldnt have to have the fear of competing against them at bruin.But i guess thats the way to go.If shes given that authority and she can exploit it that well im guessing we can all see what even her team is all about.I frown upon her and im sure her teammates do to.I have been a fan of ubc for a very long time because of what they represent.When jawani came along i favored them both.I guess its really unfair that this happened and i hope jawani realizes that they did their best and i hope to see them at bruin competing against UBC!!! Cuz i sure as hell wanna see what the outcome is! As for results..if there was true fair results the results would be given right away to teams.Also bharathi having those two judges be the only ones arguing shows you that they obviously felt the need to defend themselves..well OVER defend themselves.POST A VIDEO!!!!
Sweet Lord!!... you guys are taking this to a totally different level.. I can definitely assure you that UBC Girlz are not competing at Bruin Bhangra 2009. Also, look at their track records.... i am sure they don't have any issues competing with any team including Jawani whom they competed against over the years. I am sure there are reasons as to WHY some teams placed and some teams did not.

Monti Sehmi
 

NDbhangra87

New Member
Messages
48
itnom said:
NDbhangra87 said:
Agreed.So pretty much from what im seeing,saw at bash..Jawani got screwed.What this competition does not realize is that everyone now knows what this competition is really about.I cannot really comprehend why they would use jora.aside from mandeep.They both should NOT have agreed to judge.If ubc is doing bruin i can see why she would say yes.I dont know if jawani was applying to bruin but She is obviously afraid of being beat by the infamous girls.So she must of docked them so she wouldnt have to have the fear of competing against them at bruin.But i guess thats the way to go.If shes given that authority and she can exploit it that well im guessing we can all see what even her team is all about.I frown upon her and im sure her teammates do to.I have been a fan of ubc for a very long time because of what they represent.When jawani came along i favored them both.I guess its really unfair that this happened and i hope jawani realizes that they did their best and i hope to see them at bruin competing against UBC!!! Cuz i sure as hell wanna see what the outcome is! As for results..if there was true fair results the results would be given right away to teams.Also bharathi having those two judges be the only ones arguing shows you that they obviously felt the need to defend themselves..well OVER defend themselves.POST A VIDEO!!!!
Sweet Lord!!... you guys are taking this to a totally different level.. I can definitely assure you that UBC Girlz are not competing at Bruin Bhangra 2009. Also, look at their track records.... i am sure they don't have any issues competing with any team including Jawani whom they competed against over the years. I am sure there are reasons as to WHY some teams placed and some teams did not.

Monti Sehmi
straight up dude you cant deny it.There were reasons why some teams placed and some did not.Look at ubc's track record and ill aggree with you they kick ASSSSS.thats why i said she is afraid of their success as it is getting bettter and better.As meistro said they will only get better..and im sure that sparks fear in mandeep.But do you seriously aggree with her being a judge? is that really fair? any other comp fine but here..i think not. If they are not thats fine ppl change their minds.Maybe she feels like she cant show face:)
 

Heera-Singh

Heera$diamonD
Messages
32
all i got to say is that Jawani girls did a great job
and sorry for dropping the suitcase on that one girls foot.
 

Jeeti

New Member
Messages
974
Heera-Singh said:
all i got to say is that Jawani girls did a great job
and sorry for dropping the suitcase on that one girls foot.
hahahahha. thats funny
 

Nilum

Member
Messages
37
I posted this under Bash Results but should have posted it under Judging:

I don't want to comment on any individual teams from the competition with reviews etc b/c I was a competing member in the competition, affiliated with Duniya Allstars and I don't think that is very professional at all. And I am not coming on here whining that Duniya Allstars should have placed. However, I will say this: The judging results were ridiculous in my opinion (that's my personal opinion and I do not represent my entire team in saying this).

WE SHOULD BE congratulating Jawani Bhangra Team on a first place win right now. You girls rocked and owned the stage on Saturday night. But keep your heads up because you girls are going big places, trust me. Your set was one of the most entertaining, clean, energetic all girls sets I have ever seen. In the future, I strongly suggest that Bhangra Competition organizers never select people from the current competitive circle as this raises eyebrows and certain biases etc. I am almost expecting to get blasted by some of judges for posting this: But in order to eliminate any problems, dancers who currently compete or are affiliated with competing teams should not be chosen or even accept the role of judging other dancers they normally compete against.

One thing (in Bash's defense), we were informed of the judges on Wednesday night (although very late) and it was our decision to stay in the competition. However, I know that many teams would never drop out 2 days before a competition because reg fees, travel plans, pre purchased tickets, practice time, money etc.

All that aside, myself and our team had a great time at Bash in Seattle. The teams were all amazing and I think it was a really solid show. The competition ran on time and the organizers made sure that the teams had whatever they needed, including providing buses everywhere and making sure that the after party was within walking distance. We were also provided with food and a lot of water, however one suggestion that a member of our team had, was to use all that extra money (spent on pizza and water) and fly in some judges or even raise the registration fee. I thank Bash for the opportunity for our team to perform on Saturday night. We had so much fun performing and all realized how much we have missed Bhangra (not having performed since VIBC and Bhangra Fusion in 2008).

Nilum
Duniya Allstars
PS: I apologize for any grammatical errors or mistakes as this post was kind of rushed but I thought I might forget to post later if I don't quickly post now.
 

Bhangra Girl

New Member
Messages
14
Congrats to the teams that placed this weekend!

Without a doubt what happened this weekend should NOT have occurred with regards to the placings…it was VERY clear that Jawani got robbed of a well deserved placing…amazing job girls!

I agree with Bharathi’s points! The competition is over and the results are final, BUT we can learn from this incident and NOT have judges who are also performers of other competing teams judge regardless of the fact if they are friends, or acquaintances, or non-friends.

Also, we can encourage organizers to release the judges to the teams as far in advance as possible, this way teams and organizers can actually have time to correct problems that may arise with the judges.

In addition, I don’t think it was fair to take off points off if it is NOT written in the judging score sheet as teams follow the judging rubric, and any deductions should be listed! If they are not listed, then how do teams know what they will lose points on as many things are open for interpretation?!?!?!?! Also, I saw the first place team kick their kunda’s…which is a complete lack of respect to Punjabi culture and in competitions that I have competed at they have deducted anywhere between 5-10 points for lack of respect, did this competition do the same?? It doesn’t seem like it if that team placed first! No disrespect to the team, but we are doing bhangra and although it may have been a gimmick, it is still disrespect to the culture that we are representing.

It’s disheartening to think that some judges exploit the power they gain when chosen to judge competitions, and put their own agenda first. It ruins it for all the rest of us that work so hard and dream to compete on those stages and in theses competitions…
 

Ranjit

New Member
Messages
24
Alas, another example of why people on BTF/Our generation performers should NOT be judges at competitions.
Actually I think this is another example of committees not properly doing their homework when it comes times to pick judges.
 

Bharathi

Member
Messages
336
Jeeti said:
Heera-Singh said:
all i got to say is that Jawani girls did a great job
and sorry for dropping the suitcase on that one girls foot.
hahahahha. thats funny
It was really painful! It was the wheel that landed on my foot too right in the middle! In any case I'm sorry I yelled at you totally unprofessional but I thought my foot was going to fall off.

Congrats on your win =)
 

Ravi aka Fravi

New Member
Messages
25
Ya our bad Bharathi. I was scared for a second when you started yelling lol. But As for what she said about judging, I do agree as well. I'm not saying this is rigged or anything, but there are judges that have ties to the performing teams.. It definitely raises suspicion.
 

Bharathi

Member
Messages
336
Funny thing is a lot of people said that "we were scared when you started yelling" my teammates rolled their eyes and said "that's nothing you should see her at practice" LOL no problem it's just a bruise =)
 

NavDheri

New Member
Messages
223
Bharathi said:
Funny thing is a lot of people said that "we were scared when you started yelling" my teammates rolled their eyes and said "that's nothing you should see her at practice" LOL no problem it's just a bruise =)
she is one scary lady! next time...just RUN and HIDE!!! lol jk bharathi =] your awesome!! =D
 

Heera-Singh

Heera$diamonD
Messages
32
hahah i was scared cause you made a fist and i thought you were about to just start bombing on me. lol
 

m_gill88

New Member
Messages
118
NDbhangra87 said:
m_gill88 said:
NDbhangra87 said:
Agreed.So pretty much from what im seeing,saw at bash..Jawani got screwed.What this competition does not realize is that everyone now knows what this competition is really about.I cannot really comprehend why they would use jora.aside from mandeep.They both should NOT have agreed to judge.If ubc is doing bruin i can see why she would say yes.I dont know if jawani was applying to bruin but She is obviously afraid of being beat by the infamous girls.So she must of docked them so she wouldnt have to have the fear of competing against them at bruin.But i guess thats the way to go.If shes given that authority and she can exploit it that well im guessing we can all see what even her team is all about.I frown upon her and im sure her teammates do to.I have been a fan of ubc for a very long time because of what they represent.When jawani came along i favored them both.I guess its really unfair that this happened and i hope jawani realizes that they did their best and i hope to see them at bruin competing against UBC!!! Cuz i sure as hell wanna see what the outcome is! As for results..if there was true fair results the results would be given right away to teams.Also bharathi having those two judges be the only ones arguing shows you that they obviously felt the need to defend themselves..well OVER defend themselves.POST A VIDEO!!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you a member of Jawani?
what makes u say that? no i am not.My name is akash nijjar.Just because i defend jawani does not mean im on the team.Try not to be so ignorant and narrow minded.Its annoying.
I didn't realize asking a question was being narrow minded and ignorant. I was JUST asking. :) Notice how I started my question with "Correct me if I'm wrong..." Annddd now I've been corrected!
 

Ramani

Member
Messages
760
Bharathi said:
Funny thing is a lot of people said that "we were scared when you started yelling" my teammates rolled their eyes and said "that's nothing you should see her at practice" LOL no problem it's just a bruise =)

LOLL oh Bharathi..
 

mona99

New Member
Messages
36
I will only be leaving one post with regards to Bhangra Bash. This being said I need not justify to anyone on this forum the decisions that were made by the judging panel. However, since there have been some very presumptious messages left on this forum I am inclined to respond and provide some basic facts and answers to some questions:

Allow me to first address the personal allegations:

My morals, ethics and professionalism would never allow me to exercise bias of any form in the judge's seat. I have had the oppurtunity to judge numerous Bhangra competitions in the past which involved the participation of my peers and this is the first time where a situation like this ever arose and the word 'bias' was used so freely. I do agree that to avoid such speculative mayhem in the future competition organizers should just not ask current competing team members to judge. Moving along since the topic seems to about Jawani Bhangra, please note that Jawani Bhangra has placed in competitions where I have resided as a judge, so if I was going to excercise a form of 'bias' I could have done so long ago.

Further, I bear no personal agenda against Jawani Bhangra, and the mere presumptiousness of it is ludicris to me. I along with my team have fought and motioned the movement of the acceptance of women's bhangra for many years now and seeing teams like Jawani, NBA and the sleugh of other's women's teams in North America makes me proud, and the very thought of purposely sabotaging Jawani Bhangra goes against everything we have worked for and every moral bone in my body.

UBC Girlz Bhangra Team is NOT competing at Bruin Bhangra this year due to school/career obligations, however we do intend to re-enter the competition circuit this fall.

Parmjit Jawanda from PCAC helped our team with the live portion of our routine back in Jan 2007, since then I nor my team has had any affiliations with Mr. Jawanda and PCAC.

Sure United and UBC practise at the same venue at different times, however causation does not equal correlation (there has been a bitter hometown rivalary between these two teams for a long time, just ask a United member...gosh if anything I should have excercised a dose of negative 'bias' towards Panj for having United members on their team!!!....please note the sarcasam...)

The judging panel had 5 judges with varying backgrounds, yet all 5 judges came to the same consensus regarding our top teams. The bias of any one judge cannot influence the decision of the 5 member judging panel.

During the judges feeback session it's true that Jora Nijjar and I were vocal and that is because we wanted to ensure that the teams left with satisfactory answers and critique. Being competitors ourselves we know exaclty what it feels like to ask for feedback from the judges and get simplistic and often useless info. However, the other three judges were also vocalizing and providing feedback as well. Most of the judges had written notes on their score sheets during each team's performance so it made providing feedback alot easier and kept the routines fresh in our head.

And in response to ND Bhangra, if I was afraid to ‘show face’ as you call it, I would not have made myself readily available for the judge’s feedback. As for our team, and the term 'fear' that you coin, well we have squared off against the best over the years and certainly not afraid to do it again, our track record speaks for itself. I am assuming you are a young poster as your thought processes are quite under- developed so for this reason I’ll excuse your offensive presumptiosness and judgement.

Bhangra Bash Judging:

We had a 5 member judging panel (2 judges from Washington, 1 from California and 2 from Vancouver)
All 5 judges reached the same consensus of our top 4-5 teams. Any one judge's bias could not have altered the decision of a 5 member judging panel.

In my opinion the score sheet and related rubric, as well as the break down of points was not very defined and none like I've seen before. We as judges did request the Bhangra Bash committee to change the layout and certain rubirc, however we were denied, and therefore had to score according to the already set rubric.

The judges had a deliberation period after the last competing act. A judges deliberation will rule out any discrepancies, bias, and favourtisim. In the case of Bhangra Bash all 5 judges agreed and had the same consensus regarding the top 4-5 teams. In the deliberation room aside from the 5 judges there was also the score keeper, and 2 additional organizers present who were there as witnesses but had no voice nor say. Upon the deliberation and tallying of the score sheets all of the 5 judges felt the outcome of winning teams was sound and fair.

From the judges point of view there were about 5 teams at the top of our score cards who were almost equal in terms of talent, ability and performance. The points between these teams was very close and this made the judging very intense and forced us to be critical. There are certain competitons where there is a clear winner or an obvious best 2-3 teams, however this was not the case for Bhangra Bash as from a judges perspective Bhangra Bash had a handful of teams who were all at the same level in terms of talent and scored almost similarily on the score sheets. However in the end we felt our decision and judging however difficult was fair.

Further, judges follow a set rubric, and the judges consensus does not always follow suit with the crowd's consensus. I have been competing for 8 years and from personal experience I can tell you that the above is true. On the Bhangra Bash scoring rubric audience response only composed 3 out of a possible 100 points. Being a competitor myself I can empathize with what a team like Jawani may be feeling as it's hard not to feel that way when the audience gives you a great response and you don't place (trust me I've been there). However, what needs to be understood is that judges adhere to a specifc criteria and crowd reaction does not dictate the entire marking of the scoresheet.

As for distributing high or low marks every competition judging panel has it's own guidlines and protocol regarding the begining bench mark or median (this eliminates the unfairness for a team that has to go earlier on in the line up) As for Bhangra Bash, my marks were distributed starting with a median mark out of 5 and then went higher, lower or equivalent as each team performed.

I want to make this clear as I did to certain teams during the judges feedback-I as a judge DID NOT score a team based on their past performances or track records and I am fairly confident that nor did the rest of the judging panel members. Teams were judged based on their performances that night on that stage. In reference to Bharati’s statement Jora was only giving Bharati a compliment that Jawani has come so far, he was not at all insinuating that what he judged that night was in comparison to what he’s seen Jawani do in the past.

As for marks being docked for going on and off stage we had addressed this with the Bhangra Bash committee to add this to the rubric but this was never resolved, therefore I cannot speak on the behalf of the other judges, but personally if there was any in or out in any team’s performance I took off marks for stamina. If you are a performer you know how difficult it is to perform for a solid 8 mins as opposed to dancing a partial portion of the dance, so I stand by my decision to deduct marks in the stamina portion of the score sheet for any team who did not dance with all of it’s members for the entire duration of the performance.

As judges we would have been fine with the releasing of the score sheets (in fact most of us even made notes and comments to the individual teams on their respective score sheets) however Bhangra Bash has a 24 hour policy of not releasing score sheets and I believe they will be mailed out shortly.

As for Jawani Bhangra, I can completely empathize with what they may be feeling as it’s hard not to feel that way when the audience and your peers think you should have placed (again, trust me I’ve been there), however it needs to be understood that as judges we must follow a certain criteria and we can’t base our decisions on crowd reaction.


Finally, Bhangra Bash had a great line-up with some very entertaining and talented teams and performances unfortunately we couldn’t place everyone. We all know the hard work, dedication, perseverance and time it takes to put together routines and travel to competitions, so I give props to all the teams that came out to Bhangra Bash. Any team that did not place or didn’t place first or second, please know the competition was tight and very close and the point differences were minimal. If any team has any further questions, or concerns or would like further feedback I am more than happy to provide that for you so please don’t hesitate to email me at mpatrola@hotmail.com

At the end of the day we are all peers here for the same cause which is to help promote, celebrate and keep alive this beautiful culture and tradition of ours. In my opinion any team, wether they place or not should hold themselves in high regard as not only are you role models for the younger generation but by championing the art form of Bhangra you are keeping alive aspects of our roots and traditions.

On a side not there are a couple of teams I want to give special mention to: ABC and Jawani Bhangra.

In my opinion Jawani Bhangra is a great team with equally great talent and they have grown leaps and bounds over the years for which I am very proud of them and I only wish them continued success in their future endeavors. Way to represent the ladies!

ABC your team did a fantastic job at Bhangra Bash, and you are one team that in my opinion has unlimited potential and is a force to be reckoned with. You were in my top 4 and I was sad to see you not place, but again there were 5 judges and one judge can’t have all the say.

If I may have offended anyone with this post then my sincerest apologies as this was not my intention.

Rab Rakha,

Mandeep
 

prince108

New Member
Messages
44
Completly agree with bharathi...

- actually when they passed around the show schedule and it had the judges names and stuff in there....half of the bhangra people that wre in the crowd that knew about jora nijjar and the ubc member....they, and I was one of them, guessed that there was going to be a bias in this comp. Its not that anyone is saying it was rigged...

-Bharathi is just trying to say that bias is natural when you have team members of judges dancing on teams that are performing...also I think a member of a team should not be a judge unless their team has retiredd and they have no affiliation with any bhangra team performing at the compeitition...

-And a point which harkiran made saying "Their were 5 judges at this competition, and our placing was not solidified by just one judge. If we did not deserve it, then why did the other 4 judges not make a objection"... before the compeition started the MC herself said that the teams will only be placed when all the judges have agreed on a palcing not by averaging out the score....I am pretty sure she said that and if that holds true then jora nijjar and the ubc member could have not agreed with the otha scores and convinced the other judges about the placings..... But thas jus a thought....


-And the score sheet drama that bharathi explained if score sheets are being given to teams the next day or a week later, in sum cases they dont even give them, they can be easily changed....and in my opinion score sheets should be given to teams right after the comeption jus for them to look at atleast, what is the point of keeping them to urself for a day or two n then sending them out... And i have personal expereince about the score sheets because i think PB has done about 6 competions and out of the six we have requested score sheets at almost all of them and recieved them only twice (Most of those comps are the ones you place in which is really wierd lol).... One not being recieved has been the most recent comeption we have done....

Again Jawani and ABC should have placed.... I think everyone even on stage knew that and its nto like the judges were sitting at a position where they had the best seat in the house.....They were sitting two rows above us and they saw exactly what everyone else saw...I had frends(bhangra people) sitting up on the balcony and even they assured jawani should have placed... Newaiizzz politics in competions will never end we just have to try to limit them as much as possible
 

Balraj17

New Member
Messages
73
mona99 said:
As for marks being docked for going on and off stage we had addressed this with the Bhangra Bash committee to add this to the rubric but this was never resolved, therefore I cannot speak on the behalf of the other judges, but personally if there was any in or out in any team’s performance I took off marks for stamina. If you are a performer you know how difficult it is to perform for a solid 8 mins as opposed to dancing a partial portion of the dance, so I stand by my decision to deduct marks in the stamina portion of the score sheet for any team who did not dance with all of it’s members for the entire duration of the performance.


If you did talk to the committe and they did not add this to the rubric i think that says something. They probably did not want to apply the rule for a reason. We even asked the committee if it was okay to leave and come back on stage for the live segment and they said it was fine. Also, it was not written in the judging rubrics. From past experiences, competitions usually write in the Judging rubric if they did not want to allow dancers to leave or not (e.g. Bhangra idols). Since you have been dancing for 8 years im pretty sure you should know this. Also there is a judging Rubric for a reason and it should not be free to interpretation!!. Your own preconcieved notions and biases about stamina should not have come into play if it was not in the rubrics. If we had known that you would dock marks we would not have taken any one off stage. We follow the rubrics for a reason and i think you should have to.

Balraj Aulakh
Jawani Bhangra
 

prince108

New Member
Messages
44
I dunno much about judging but if you think that by going of the stage and you should be docked of marks for stamina and it wuznt written in the guidlines for judging then you should not follow it if you are following the rest of the rules. As said by you you went with what ever was written in the rules and that wasnt and should not have been applied in my opinion
 
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