The main point of my response was exactly what I bolded. I am not looking at it from only the Bash perspective, but all the recent competitions that have taken place. There have been various competitions that occurred recently, and nobody seems to be happy with the results. We can come here on BTF and have mature coversations all we want, it is a great thing keep doing it. It is still not going to effect judging at all. All you can do is it rip it up on stage because that is the only thing in your hands.Pooja said:
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Bhangra Bash Judging
- Thread starter Bharathi
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Bharathi
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Over the last 5 years Jawani Bhangra has competed over 20 times and this is the first time I've publicly questioned judging because I feel that if everybody just sits back and says "well there's nothing we can do" my fear is that future generations will say "bhangra competitions? what a waste of time, they are all rigged anyways" and not compete and turn to less productive uses of their time. Younger kids are our future and they need to learn about Punjabi culture. It would be a shame for us to not be able to use this form of teaching them in the future because of a lack of motivation.
Well like Pooja said, the whole point of starting this thread is that Bhangra Bash's committee might read it and understand some of the issues that not only Jawani but some other teams also had with the chosen judges.
I'm sorry that in this judging panel's minds, Jawani Bhangra's routine was so poor that even with JUST a 1 point deduction potentially from each judge for stamina (please note the sarcasm) we still didn't place in the top 5.
Well like Pooja said, the whole point of starting this thread is that Bhangra Bash's committee might read it and understand some of the issues that not only Jawani but some other teams also had with the chosen judges.
I'm sorry that in this judging panel's minds, Jawani Bhangra's routine was so poor that even with JUST a 1 point deduction potentially from each judge for stamina (please note the sarcasm) we still didn't place in the top 5.
enough is enough
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Alright, Enough is Enough here...
Mandeep I suggest that you stop trying to defend yourself in this situation as you are clearly making it worse. It is evident that NO ONE at the compitition sees Eye to Eye with the judges decisions, and are clearly disappointed with the results. I'm sure the Organizers of Bash have learnt their lesson, and will try to avoid such situation in the future. Mandeep your level of integrety has gone down in my eyes There are 2 threads talking about how badly judged this compitition was, I definitely question your ethics after this drama you have clearly had a part in creating (as you're the ONLY judge defending themselves... This clearly makes you look guiltier than any other of the 5 of you)
I remember these SAME problems arose at an Abbotsford Tournament a while back where you were judging, and Jawani performing. They were tied for 3rd place (not sure why there was even a tie in the first place), and after the organizers came right out and told Jawani that they were ACTUALLY 1st place until SOMEONE veered the Judges decisions in a completely different direction. I'm sure you're going to try to go into another long winded discussion about that, but please, save yourself the time, I don't care to hear what you have to say afterall the Organizer DID point his finger at you!
As a judge you should NEVER make up your own rules, or define the rules in your own way. It should be agreed upon PRIOR to the Comp to go over the rules with the officials to make sure that all judges understand exactly what everything means and how it should be taken into context. Having a 5 judge Panel means that you will NEVER have a tie... Unless one judge doesn't vote. No matter how close any team is in points, like Balraj pointed out, half a point can seperate you from first and second place... so why have two 3rd place winners?
I also beleive that Balraj from Jawani is correct when he said you were contradicting what you were saying in your first post. Nor did you answer all of the questions he posed, you just defended what he wrote... again making yourself look guilty of wrongdoings
Stop lying to yourself and others, you know this compitition was not fairly judged. Unless all 300-400 people who attended the event are blind and deaf, they CLEARLY didn't see what you saw. (and apparently what the other 4 judges saw)
What Goes Around Comes Around.
Mandeep I suggest that you stop trying to defend yourself in this situation as you are clearly making it worse. It is evident that NO ONE at the compitition sees Eye to Eye with the judges decisions, and are clearly disappointed with the results. I'm sure the Organizers of Bash have learnt their lesson, and will try to avoid such situation in the future. Mandeep your level of integrety has gone down in my eyes There are 2 threads talking about how badly judged this compitition was, I definitely question your ethics after this drama you have clearly had a part in creating (as you're the ONLY judge defending themselves... This clearly makes you look guiltier than any other of the 5 of you)
I remember these SAME problems arose at an Abbotsford Tournament a while back where you were judging, and Jawani performing. They were tied for 3rd place (not sure why there was even a tie in the first place), and after the organizers came right out and told Jawani that they were ACTUALLY 1st place until SOMEONE veered the Judges decisions in a completely different direction. I'm sure you're going to try to go into another long winded discussion about that, but please, save yourself the time, I don't care to hear what you have to say afterall the Organizer DID point his finger at you!
As a judge you should NEVER make up your own rules, or define the rules in your own way. It should be agreed upon PRIOR to the Comp to go over the rules with the officials to make sure that all judges understand exactly what everything means and how it should be taken into context. Having a 5 judge Panel means that you will NEVER have a tie... Unless one judge doesn't vote. No matter how close any team is in points, like Balraj pointed out, half a point can seperate you from first and second place... so why have two 3rd place winners?
I also beleive that Balraj from Jawani is correct when he said you were contradicting what you were saying in your first post. Nor did you answer all of the questions he posed, you just defended what he wrote... again making yourself look guilty of wrongdoings
Stop lying to yourself and others, you know this compitition was not fairly judged. Unless all 300-400 people who attended the event are blind and deaf, they CLEARLY didn't see what you saw. (and apparently what the other 4 judges saw)
What Goes Around Comes Around.
CSWSBhangra
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I think Harkiran ,herman and any other team that placed must be feeling like they are unworthy of their placing.Dont defend yourselves here.No one said you shouldnt not have placed.This is just the first time someone stepped up and said we have to stop this,.Campy i didnt know u were white until u said it.when u say "what do i know im white" do u feel like that when u dance?!?! doesnt matter if ur pink or blue you gave some good critisizm so dont put yourself down!! I feel bad personally for bmw panj and pcac as well as jawani.Placing and thinking u dont deserve it might feel hurtful.from what im seeing i dont think bharathi means they shud have gotten first or second or third but at least been in the top 5.Bringing up this thread is to address the issue of biased judging!! so dont feel bad guys u rocked hizzouse!.
Overall this was a really good competition, so congrats to all the performers. The ones that stood out for me were ABC, Jawani and Bhangra Knights
It seems that the judging is always the downfall of these competitions because people can't keep their biases or egos in check. After the results it was completely clear that the judges had their own agendas and didn't see the same thing as the entire crowd. A Bibi sitting by me even yelled out that a couple of the teams should "Sue the judges!!", which was really funny but also kind of sad.
Bash was organized well and the performances were great but the judging was The Worst i've seen at a competition. Unfortunately next year a lot of really good teams won't be in the competition as a result and the show will suffer
It seems that the judging is always the downfall of these competitions because people can't keep their biases or egos in check. After the results it was completely clear that the judges had their own agendas and didn't see the same thing as the entire crowd. A Bibi sitting by me even yelled out that a couple of the teams should "Sue the judges!!", which was really funny but also kind of sad.
Bash was organized well and the performances were great but the judging was The Worst i've seen at a competition. Unfortunately next year a lot of really good teams won't be in the competition as a result and the show will suffer
Sharin
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Disclaimer: I was not at the competition and have not seen anyone's performance. I'm not commenting on the placings, but I am going to comment on what I think about the whole judging issue.
I agree that you shouldn't judge if people you dance with on your own team are performing at the competition. If I was asked to judge and members of my team were dancing on another team, I would feel too uncomfortable with the situation and would decline the opportunity to judge at the event. Jora asking the organizers and letting them know he danced with some of the competing performers is not enough. He should have stepped down, in my opinion.
I just feel like this kind of thing happens and you just got to live with it, essentially. Affiliations between teams and judges are a dime a dozen and I just don't think it can really be helped. We're all from the same community, we all enjoy bhangra..somebody on a team is bound to be affiliated with someone else at a competition. At Bhangra Idols there were over ten judges I believe.. I had affiliations -danced with, competed against - quite a few of those judges! Jawani competed at that competition, won that competition and I know that they knew people on the judging panel and the organizers of the show as well! For the sake of the argument, does this call their win into question? Of course not because like I said..affiliations are bound to happen. Jawani's main concern is that something like this doesn't happen again. Are they stating that a.) competitive dancers should not also be judges because of biases (for or against) a team? If so, it's already happened before, and they won. There were no questions at that point ???. If they're stating that b.) the issue is strictly that judging criteria was not followed (ie. the stamina/on off bit) then the question of Mandeep being a competitive dancer should not arise, because like I said, it's happened before and there were no questions then.
Mandeep said,
Unless the judge is a random who hasn't ever been exposed to bhangra.. he or she is going to have a natural bias. Every judge who has good qualifications will have seen other teams, may or may not like a certain style, etc.. That is why the WAY the winners are determined is even more important than the judges that are selected. The system should be set up in a way that any score that had a heavy bias would be eliminated (take out the highest and lowest scores). I think that one of the main issues of Bhangra Bash wasn't so much that Mandeep or Jora were judging, but that scoresheets were not given right away and that's a problem with most competitions and is something that should be changed. Teams spend so much time, money and effort into going to a competition, and I think all teams should raise the bar in their expectations of each competition. We are the ones that people are buying tickets to see, and yet we're the ones with the least power. We should demand to be able to speak with judges at some sort of captain's meeting, and we should get a scoresheet right away. In my opinion I don't think the fact that Mandeep is currently competing (for those that thought UBC was going to Bruin) makes her any more biased than someone who isn't currently competing and is a judge. You don't need to be competing to know about other teams and form natural biases, nor would Mandeep denying Jawani a placing benefit her own team in any way. People are only saying that because they're comparing Jawani to UBC strictly because they're both all girls teams. If Jawani was an all male team I don't think anyone would be saying things like:
Also, I don't understand how people can so casually and so blatantly assasinate someone's character like this. She's already said, that BECAUSE she is a competitive dancer herself, she knows and appreciates how important it is to get feedback from judges. That is why, she gave Jawani feedback and why she commented on this forum. She is the only judge talking, yes, but how does that make her look guilty? It's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". If she didn't talk then I'm sure user "enough is enough" would comment on how Mandeep's not talking even though she's an active member of BTF and has posted on this forum before. It's ridiculous how people just insinuate the craziest things. I understand that this is a forum and one should be able to speak their mind but I really don't feel like there is any need to just spout off crazy rumours. I'm flabbergasted at some of the stuff that I see on here. For example:
I actually really love the point of this thread and Bharati I give you mad props for having the guts, balls, etc to come on here and question things. I love how things are inching towards transparency in the bhangra community and I respect and appreciate your thoughts behind starting this thread in the first place. Honestly, there have been so many times that judging has been messed up..when you "know" that a team is going to place because: they're the only local/out of town team.. or.. it's their last competition, the competition paid for them to come down in the first place, they always place one male/one coed/one girls team, or a team placed even though rules were violated. These kinds of things happen all the time..I honestly don't know how to fix this situation, other than complete transparency.. all scoresheets posted, etc. I don't want to say anything about the placings cuz I wasn't there but lots of love from me to you n the rest of the girls and hopefully I get one of your awesome hugs soon!
I agree that you shouldn't judge if people you dance with on your own team are performing at the competition. If I was asked to judge and members of my team were dancing on another team, I would feel too uncomfortable with the situation and would decline the opportunity to judge at the event. Jora asking the organizers and letting them know he danced with some of the competing performers is not enough. He should have stepped down, in my opinion.
I just feel like this kind of thing happens and you just got to live with it, essentially. Affiliations between teams and judges are a dime a dozen and I just don't think it can really be helped. We're all from the same community, we all enjoy bhangra..somebody on a team is bound to be affiliated with someone else at a competition. At Bhangra Idols there were over ten judges I believe.. I had affiliations -danced with, competed against - quite a few of those judges! Jawani competed at that competition, won that competition and I know that they knew people on the judging panel and the organizers of the show as well! For the sake of the argument, does this call their win into question? Of course not because like I said..affiliations are bound to happen. Jawani's main concern is that something like this doesn't happen again. Are they stating that a.) competitive dancers should not also be judges because of biases (for or against) a team? If so, it's already happened before, and they won. There were no questions at that point ???. If they're stating that b.) the issue is strictly that judging criteria was not followed (ie. the stamina/on off bit) then the question of Mandeep being a competitive dancer should not arise, because like I said, it's happened before and there were no questions then.
Mandeep said,
If Mandeep has judged Jawani before, and they placed, then she could have excercised a bias for or against Jawani at that time. Basically, if Jawani won Bash, there would be no questions from them because they would have felt that they deserved it. That's wrong because right now they think that Mandeep shouldn't have judged because she competes against them normally, and therefore she might have a "natural bias". That bias could be for or against them. Playing the devils advocate.. what if Mandeep had a bias for all girls bhangra teams (plausible seeing as how she dances on one so obviously she likes the fact that all girls teams exist and could have a bias for them) and was unfairly for Jawani, causing them to win first. Would Jawani come on here and question the judging then? It should work both ways. To the person who mentioned Punjabi Showdown 2007---from what I recall, (and I was at the meeting after that competition), the score sheets got messed up because of some issue with a judge (that was judging the Senior section of the competition..not Mandeep), and after the open board meeting that all the judges had to clear up the discrepancy, the correct team placings were announced (I could be wrong but I think it was after taking out that senior judges scoresheet). That competition had already decided that in case of any discrepancy in scoresheets, a meeting could be held with both junior and senior judges to clear things up, so scoresheets were never going to be a sole deciding factor of who placed in that competition. Also, at the end of it all Jawani accepted that award.
Unless the judge is a random who hasn't ever been exposed to bhangra.. he or she is going to have a natural bias. Every judge who has good qualifications will have seen other teams, may or may not like a certain style, etc.. That is why the WAY the winners are determined is even more important than the judges that are selected. The system should be set up in a way that any score that had a heavy bias would be eliminated (take out the highest and lowest scores). I think that one of the main issues of Bhangra Bash wasn't so much that Mandeep or Jora were judging, but that scoresheets were not given right away and that's a problem with most competitions and is something that should be changed. Teams spend so much time, money and effort into going to a competition, and I think all teams should raise the bar in their expectations of each competition. We are the ones that people are buying tickets to see, and yet we're the ones with the least power. We should demand to be able to speak with judges at some sort of captain's meeting, and we should get a scoresheet right away. In my opinion I don't think the fact that Mandeep is currently competing (for those that thought UBC was going to Bruin) makes her any more biased than someone who isn't currently competing and is a judge. You don't need to be competing to know about other teams and form natural biases, nor would Mandeep denying Jawani a placing benefit her own team in any way. People are only saying that because they're comparing Jawani to UBC strictly because they're both all girls teams. If Jawani was an all male team I don't think anyone would be saying things like:
- unknown(forgot to copy n paste the user name of the person who wrote this and I don't post often so I don't know how to use the whole quote thing sorry!.. :-D )
Also, I don't understand how people can so casually and so blatantly assasinate someone's character like this. She's already said, that BECAUSE she is a competitive dancer herself, she knows and appreciates how important it is to get feedback from judges. That is why, she gave Jawani feedback and why she commented on this forum. She is the only judge talking, yes, but how does that make her look guilty? It's a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". If she didn't talk then I'm sure user "enough is enough" would comment on how Mandeep's not talking even though she's an active member of BTF and has posted on this forum before. It's ridiculous how people just insinuate the craziest things. I understand that this is a forum and one should be able to speak their mind but I really don't feel like there is any need to just spout off crazy rumours. I'm flabbergasted at some of the stuff that I see on here. For example:
written by "Meistro". This comment irritates me in so many ways. "Meistro" clearly wasn't at the competition, hasn't seen all of the performances (even if all the videos were seen, I don't believe a video showcases enough to make a call on placings), and hasn't seen any scoresheets. Yet, because he feels some people have respectable opinions he just flat out says that Jawani didn't place because they didn't have a hook up. Dude.. have some discretion!
I actually really love the point of this thread and Bharati I give you mad props for having the guts, balls, etc to come on here and question things. I love how things are inching towards transparency in the bhangra community and I respect and appreciate your thoughts behind starting this thread in the first place. Honestly, there have been so many times that judging has been messed up..when you "know" that a team is going to place because: they're the only local/out of town team.. or.. it's their last competition, the competition paid for them to come down in the first place, they always place one male/one coed/one girls team, or a team placed even though rules were violated. These kinds of things happen all the time..I honestly don't know how to fix this situation, other than complete transparency.. all scoresheets posted, etc. I don't want to say anything about the placings cuz I wasn't there but lots of love from me to you n the rest of the girls and hopefully I get one of your awesome hugs soon!
Meistro
Asi Shounk Nu Karaiyaan Muschaan Kundiyaan...
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written by "Meistro". This comment irritates me in so many ways. "Meistro" clearly wasn't at the competition, hasn't seen all of the performances (even if all the videos were seen, I don't believe a video showcases enough to make a call on placings), and hasn't seen any scoresheets. Yet, because he feels some people have respectable opinions he just flat out says that Jawani didn't place because they didn't have a hook up. Dude.. have some discretion!
[/quote]
Hey "Sharin"! Guess what? Suck it up! if you don't like what I said, then live with it! Lets cut the bullshit. If you don't want crap like this happening THEN DON'T HAVE JUDGES WITH SUCH CLOSES AFFILIATIONS WITH TEAMS! PERIOD! Who knows, the judges might have had the most accurate scores, and this might have been the most flawless competition in terms of judging. But the fact of the matter remains: two of the judges had very close affiliations with a few of the teams that placed and one CAN'T HELP BUT WONDER what the hell went on there. So before you get all irritated and throw a hissy fit, read my post carefully. In the future, so people's imaginations don't start running wild, choose your judges wisely. Make sense "Sharin"?
[/quote]
Hey "Sharin"! Guess what? Suck it up! if you don't like what I said, then live with it! Lets cut the bullshit. If you don't want crap like this happening THEN DON'T HAVE JUDGES WITH SUCH CLOSES AFFILIATIONS WITH TEAMS! PERIOD! Who knows, the judges might have had the most accurate scores, and this might have been the most flawless competition in terms of judging. But the fact of the matter remains: two of the judges had very close affiliations with a few of the teams that placed and one CAN'T HELP BUT WONDER what the hell went on there. So before you get all irritated and throw a hissy fit, read my post carefully. In the future, so people's imaginations don't start running wild, choose your judges wisely. Make sense "Sharin"?
CSWSBhangra
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jawani's win at idols was well defined and completley deserved.Yes they knew the organizers..i unno about judges.thats a HOME competition.obviously they are going to know them.bash was out of town.there has to be some sort of affiliation if your dancing at a home competition.the whole point is everyone in this entire forum aggrees they should have placed.at least top 5.
Bharathi
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To Sharin:
Thanks for your post and I'm sure I will be seeing you shortly (perhaps even this weekend at the high school comp).
I just have a couple of points to make regarding your post:
"Are they stating that a.) competitive dancers should not also be judges because of biases (for or against) a team? If so, it's already happened before, and they won. There were no questions at that point . If they're stating that b.) the issue is strictly that judging criteria was not followed (ie. the stamina/on off bit) then the question of Mandeep being a competitive dancer should not arise, because like I said, it's happened before and there were no questions then"
We are stating both things. If your team is at all still involved in the bhangra circuit, your team captain should not be judging. And UBC and United are very much an important part of the current competitive circuit. I personally was approached to judge a recent juniors competition but didn't accept because one of my dancers coached one of the competitive teams...obvious conflict of interest. No disrespect to anyone but nobody is holding a gun to your head, you can decline a judging offer. Judging criteria its not a judge's fault if the rubric is not defined enough but there shouldn't be any room for judges to interpret and apply things as they please. If my team has to follow a rubric judges should have to as well.
"Playing the devils advocate.. what if Mandeep had a bias for all girls bhangra teams (plausible seeing as how she dances on one so obviously she likes the fact that all girls teams exist and could have a bias for them) and was unfairly for Jawani, causing them to win first. Would Jawani come on here and question the judging then?"
I'm sure that if a first place win was not deserved, it would be mentioned several times on BTF (gotta love an online forum!) Jawani has not always been an award winning team, there have been more competitions than not where we haven't placed. We've never complained before. It's just that we felt the bias in judging at this competition to be so strong that something had to be said. Before I started typing away there were already posts by several other members, who would have posted equally strongly if we had placed 1st when we didn't deserve it.
“In my opinion I don't think the fact that Mandeep is currently competing (for those that thought UBC was going to Bruin) makes her any more biased than someone who isn't currently competing and is a judge.”
I very very strongly disagree with you but our differences is what makes us unique =)
"To the person who mentioned Punjabi Showdown 2007---from what I recall, (and I was at the meeting after that competition), the score sheets got messed up because of some issue with a judge (that was judging the Senior section of the competition..not Mandeep), and after the open board meeting that all the judges had to clear up the discrepancy, the correct team placings were announced (I could be wrong but I think it was after taking out that senior judges scoresheet). That competition had already decided that in case of any discrepancy in scoresheets, a meeting could be held with both junior and senior judges to clear things up, so scoresheets were never going to be a sole deciding factor of who placed in that competition. Also, at the end of it all Jawani accepted that award."
That was a big mess from the minute they announced the results. If they had a judges meeting to clear up the placings in the seniors category, the junior judges had no reason to be in that meeting. After all the controversy there was no way I was getting involved in the politics, like I said before, Jawani just wanted to DANCE and have fun...not get dragged into a bunch of politics that doesn't achieve anything.
Few notes RE Bhangra Idols and Jawani’s first first-place win:
Neither I nor any of my teammates have ever danced (competitive bhangra) on the same team or part of the same club as the judges on the Bhangra Idols panel for 2008.
Mandeep or Jora were NOT judges at Bhangra Idols 2008.
We've never swapped dancers with any of the teams that those judges may or may not be affiliated with, or any other team whatsoever.
We've never been coached by any of the judges on the Bhangra Idols panel.
Jawani Bhangra is NOT affiliated with Paji Guys (organizers of Bhangra Idols). Yes we all know one another but we also knew one another in 2005 and 2006 and Jawani didn't place either of those years. On that note, we know most of the organizers of VIBC and we never even do that competition. Knowing the organizers in this case does not affect the placings.
Hope that clears up our stance on a few things and glad to have you back home after Detroit!
Thanks for your post and I'm sure I will be seeing you shortly (perhaps even this weekend at the high school comp).
I just have a couple of points to make regarding your post:
"Are they stating that a.) competitive dancers should not also be judges because of biases (for or against) a team? If so, it's already happened before, and they won. There were no questions at that point . If they're stating that b.) the issue is strictly that judging criteria was not followed (ie. the stamina/on off bit) then the question of Mandeep being a competitive dancer should not arise, because like I said, it's happened before and there were no questions then"
We are stating both things. If your team is at all still involved in the bhangra circuit, your team captain should not be judging. And UBC and United are very much an important part of the current competitive circuit. I personally was approached to judge a recent juniors competition but didn't accept because one of my dancers coached one of the competitive teams...obvious conflict of interest. No disrespect to anyone but nobody is holding a gun to your head, you can decline a judging offer. Judging criteria its not a judge's fault if the rubric is not defined enough but there shouldn't be any room for judges to interpret and apply things as they please. If my team has to follow a rubric judges should have to as well.
"Playing the devils advocate.. what if Mandeep had a bias for all girls bhangra teams (plausible seeing as how she dances on one so obviously she likes the fact that all girls teams exist and could have a bias for them) and was unfairly for Jawani, causing them to win first. Would Jawani come on here and question the judging then?"
I'm sure that if a first place win was not deserved, it would be mentioned several times on BTF (gotta love an online forum!) Jawani has not always been an award winning team, there have been more competitions than not where we haven't placed. We've never complained before. It's just that we felt the bias in judging at this competition to be so strong that something had to be said. Before I started typing away there were already posts by several other members, who would have posted equally strongly if we had placed 1st when we didn't deserve it.
“In my opinion I don't think the fact that Mandeep is currently competing (for those that thought UBC was going to Bruin) makes her any more biased than someone who isn't currently competing and is a judge.”
I very very strongly disagree with you but our differences is what makes us unique =)
"To the person who mentioned Punjabi Showdown 2007---from what I recall, (and I was at the meeting after that competition), the score sheets got messed up because of some issue with a judge (that was judging the Senior section of the competition..not Mandeep), and after the open board meeting that all the judges had to clear up the discrepancy, the correct team placings were announced (I could be wrong but I think it was after taking out that senior judges scoresheet). That competition had already decided that in case of any discrepancy in scoresheets, a meeting could be held with both junior and senior judges to clear things up, so scoresheets were never going to be a sole deciding factor of who placed in that competition. Also, at the end of it all Jawani accepted that award."
That was a big mess from the minute they announced the results. If they had a judges meeting to clear up the placings in the seniors category, the junior judges had no reason to be in that meeting. After all the controversy there was no way I was getting involved in the politics, like I said before, Jawani just wanted to DANCE and have fun...not get dragged into a bunch of politics that doesn't achieve anything.
Few notes RE Bhangra Idols and Jawani’s first first-place win:
Neither I nor any of my teammates have ever danced (competitive bhangra) on the same team or part of the same club as the judges on the Bhangra Idols panel for 2008.
Mandeep or Jora were NOT judges at Bhangra Idols 2008.
We've never swapped dancers with any of the teams that those judges may or may not be affiliated with, or any other team whatsoever.
We've never been coached by any of the judges on the Bhangra Idols panel.
Jawani Bhangra is NOT affiliated with Paji Guys (organizers of Bhangra Idols). Yes we all know one another but we also knew one another in 2005 and 2006 and Jawani didn't place either of those years. On that note, we know most of the organizers of VIBC and we never even do that competition. Knowing the organizers in this case does not affect the placings.
Hope that clears up our stance on a few things and glad to have you back home after Detroit!
Sharin
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- 51
Meistro, the reason your name was in quotations was because I did not think that was your real name.. hence why "enough is enough" was also in quotations but Bharathi's name wasn't..mine however is my real name so there's no real need for quotations but whatever floats your boat ;D. I don't like what you said and I have full rights to say so, so I did. There's no reason for me to suck anything up. I think people should have more discretion when they post (some manners would be nice as well 
)and you clearlyyy disagree with me, and that's totally fine. If I don't like what you say in future, I'm still going to comment and not "suck it up"...n who knows maybe one day you'll come to appreciate that trait about me ?! If everyone "sucked it up" this forum would not exist darling! Lastly, I'm too classy to throw a hissy fit aha.
CSWS Bhangra...Jawani's win was 100% completely deserved. I never said that it wasn't, and I was one of the first to congratulate them seeing as how I was jumping on stage beside them when their win was announced. I'm friends with most of the members on that team and LOVE those girls. I'm sure multiple teams (including mine!) kind of know the organizers because it's a local competition and they're pretty prominent people, I wasn't trying to say that things were rigged or biased. My only point was that there's always going to be some kind of affiliation between people because we're all pretty close here in Vancity and we all know each other! Bharati, I by no means meant to insinuate that your win was not deserved there at all but apon rereading my post I can see how people could run with a comment like that so thank you for immediately stating all those facts. Just to clarify my stance on that as well so that everyone knows - I did not say nor did I ever think that Jawani danced with or swapped dancers with or were coached by any of the judges there nor did I think they were officially affiliated with Paji Guys...phew run on sentence. But, some of the judges at that competition were currently in the competitive circuit and are still competitive dancers. I personally don't think that's a big deal, especially because at that competition each judge was in charge of different things (ie. formations, stamina). Regarding Bash, like I said earlier I personally wouldn't judge a competition if I had members of my team competing in that same competition. Like Bharati said no one is holding a gun to their head, he easily could have declined to judge.
)and you clearlyyy disagree with me, and that's totally fine. If I don't like what you say in future, I'm still going to comment and not "suck it up"...n who knows maybe one day you'll come to appreciate that trait about me ?! If everyone "sucked it up" this forum would not exist darling! Lastly, I'm too classy to throw a hissy fit aha.CSWS Bhangra...Jawani's win was 100% completely deserved. I never said that it wasn't, and I was one of the first to congratulate them seeing as how I was jumping on stage beside them when their win was announced. I'm friends with most of the members on that team and LOVE those girls. I'm sure multiple teams (including mine!) kind of know the organizers because it's a local competition and they're pretty prominent people, I wasn't trying to say that things were rigged or biased. My only point was that there's always going to be some kind of affiliation between people because we're all pretty close here in Vancity and we all know each other! Bharati, I by no means meant to insinuate that your win was not deserved there at all but apon rereading my post I can see how people could run with a comment like that so thank you for immediately stating all those facts. Just to clarify my stance on that as well so that everyone knows - I did not say nor did I ever think that Jawani danced with or swapped dancers with or were coached by any of the judges there nor did I think they were officially affiliated with Paji Guys...phew run on sentence. But, some of the judges at that competition were currently in the competitive circuit and are still competitive dancers. I personally don't think that's a big deal, especially because at that competition each judge was in charge of different things (ie. formations, stamina). Regarding Bash, like I said earlier I personally wouldn't judge a competition if I had members of my team competing in that same competition. Like Bharati said no one is holding a gun to their head, he easily could have declined to judge.
Ranvir
Member
- Messages
- 32
The judging at Bhangra Bash has been getting more and more questionable each year. The last two years have been pretty bad as the judges have been people who are or were recently involved in the circuit. My team(ABC) competed at bash for the first time last year and we thought we had a pretty solid performance at least top 5 last year. We didn't bother talking to the judges or anything like that last year but a few weeks after the competition we received our score cards. There were 7 judges last year and we received these exact scores 88,84,78,77,67,54, and 52. We had been informed that because we left two of our props on stage we got -10pts from some of the judges not all. When I looked through the score cards only two judges deducted the 10 pts and that resulted in us getting the 77 and 67. I don't know what the hell the judges that gave us 54 and 52 were watching...i mean ive seen some bad performances but we felt we had a solid routine. I'm only saying this a year later so everyone can know what has been going on with this competition.
Long story short I suggested that the highest and lowest score should be dropped this year because the spread in our scores was ridiculous. Bash said yes we will take that into consideration but they didn't apply that rule this year and although they only had 5 judges this year the criteria was absolutely terrible where traditional steps only account for 5/100. When talking to the judges this year after the competition they told us that we were good and that just a few things were off here and there. There main problem was with the judging criteria they were forced to use. This is the second year in a row that we have had problems and even though bash is our hometown competition and is always well organized due to lack of knowledge on the board and judging problems we will definitely not be applying next year.
P.S- I attached the criteria below so you guys can see what this competition was judged off of.
Long story short I suggested that the highest and lowest score should be dropped this year because the spread in our scores was ridiculous. Bash said yes we will take that into consideration but they didn't apply that rule this year and although they only had 5 judges this year the criteria was absolutely terrible where traditional steps only account for 5/100. When talking to the judges this year after the competition they told us that we were good and that just a few things were off here and there. There main problem was with the judging criteria they were forced to use. This is the second year in a row that we have had problems and even though bash is our hometown competition and is always well organized due to lack of knowledge on the board and judging problems we will definitely not be applying next year.
P.S- I attached the criteria below so you guys can see what this competition was judged off of.
Meistro
Asi Shounk Nu Karaiyaan Muschaan Kundiyaan...
- Messages
- 2,065
"sharin" get off your high horse and stop flattering yourself.Sharin said:Meistro, the reason your name was in quotations was because I did not think that was your real name.. hence why "enough is enough" was also in quotations but Bharathi's name wasn't..mine however is my real name so there's no real need for quotations but whatever floats your boat ;D. I don't like what you said and I have full rights to say so, so I did. There's no reason for me to suck anything up. I think people should have more discretion when they post (some manners would be nice as well
Meistro, meistro, meistro..............
homie, u haven't even seen the bash vid yet and ur saying that the only reason we placed was cause we had the hook-ups, knew the right ppl and practice at the same studio. Thats not the nicest thing to say especially when you really don't know what you're talking about.
Dare I say, PANJ would of placed no matter who was judging. We are only waiting for Harjot from GTV to post the vid and i'm sure our performance will speak for itself.
Thanks
homie, u haven't even seen the bash vid yet and ur saying that the only reason we placed was cause we had the hook-ups, knew the right ppl and practice at the same studio. Thats not the nicest thing to say especially when you really don't know what you're talking about.
Dare I say, PANJ would of placed no matter who was judging. We are only waiting for Harjot from GTV to post the vid and i'm sure our performance will speak for itself.
Thanks
Dhesi
New Member
- Messages
- 101
I don't think anyone can say that Mandeep had "very close affiliations" with any of the teams there because she just knows them through bhangra life in Vancouver. Jora did have affiliations because some of his team was competing that night. Jora did do the right thing by coming forward to the committee and declaring his connections with people. Yes he could have done more by just straight up dropping it, but I'm sure it wasn't with mallicious intent that he accepted.
People are getting too harsh on this forum by making it sound like these judges deliberately messed with teams performances. From what I know of Jora and Mandeep, I don't feel either of them would do such a thing. I think this thread should return to the original intentions of:
1)competitions should not select judges that have affiliations with competing teams (affiliations in this case are not inclusive of "knowing a team", as Sharin clearly stated, everyone knows everyone so to speak. Also, competitions should not select active members of the circuit because there is definitely a greater possible conflict of interest than a non-active member.
2)if you are selected to judge, and you may feel that there is a possible conflict of interest (ie. affiliations or active competitor or others), please decline the offer. regardless of how well you think you can control your natural bias, you judging will ultimately raise eyebrows in one direction or the other.
Misc:
I would like to thank Mandeep for at least making the effort to offer lines of communication to the competing teams. Many judges don't offer this and this is too frustrating. She has posted her personal e-mail address, and whether you agree with her decisions/defenses, this is something that is admiral.
The issue with the lack of scoresheets is complete nonsense. Some competitions defend their choice not to release scorecards by saying they don't want teams to feel bad, etc. This is a crock! Teams need to know their strenghts/weaknesses so they can come back next year. By a team seeing their own scoresheet, they will not know whether they were above or below other teams, they will not know whether they were last by 80 points or whether they were 4th by one point.
Judging needs to be highly regulated. If some competitions have it figured out, why do others still make so many errors. I think one method that is highly agreed upon is to eliminate the top and low scores of each team and avg out the best. The issues result when subjective things like "judge deliberations" occur. Deliberations should only occur when teams tie exactly.
Random point: I kind of liked the judging that Idols had because then one judge is restricted to one category and their "subjective biases" if any, are contained to one category. The only downside is that if the judge scores team A 100/100 on stamina and team B 0/100 on stamina, there's no other judges scorecard to counter it. If that makes sense.
Last comment: GTV HD is the best shit I've seen in my life!
People are getting too harsh on this forum by making it sound like these judges deliberately messed with teams performances. From what I know of Jora and Mandeep, I don't feel either of them would do such a thing. I think this thread should return to the original intentions of:
1)competitions should not select judges that have affiliations with competing teams (affiliations in this case are not inclusive of "knowing a team", as Sharin clearly stated, everyone knows everyone so to speak. Also, competitions should not select active members of the circuit because there is definitely a greater possible conflict of interest than a non-active member.
2)if you are selected to judge, and you may feel that there is a possible conflict of interest (ie. affiliations or active competitor or others), please decline the offer. regardless of how well you think you can control your natural bias, you judging will ultimately raise eyebrows in one direction or the other.
Misc:
I would like to thank Mandeep for at least making the effort to offer lines of communication to the competing teams. Many judges don't offer this and this is too frustrating. She has posted her personal e-mail address, and whether you agree with her decisions/defenses, this is something that is admiral.
The issue with the lack of scoresheets is complete nonsense. Some competitions defend their choice not to release scorecards by saying they don't want teams to feel bad, etc. This is a crock! Teams need to know their strenghts/weaknesses so they can come back next year. By a team seeing their own scoresheet, they will not know whether they were above or below other teams, they will not know whether they were last by 80 points or whether they were 4th by one point.
Judging needs to be highly regulated. If some competitions have it figured out, why do others still make so many errors. I think one method that is highly agreed upon is to eliminate the top and low scores of each team and avg out the best. The issues result when subjective things like "judge deliberations" occur. Deliberations should only occur when teams tie exactly.
Random point: I kind of liked the judging that Idols had because then one judge is restricted to one category and their "subjective biases" if any, are contained to one category. The only downside is that if the judge scores team A 100/100 on stamina and team B 0/100 on stamina, there's no other judges scorecard to counter it. If that makes sense.
Last comment: GTV HD is the best shit I've seen in my life!
campy614
New Member
- Messages
- 666
CSWS... I was totally kidding when I said that.CSWSBhangra said:
But honestly, I feel that way. But it isn't a "I'm the white guy on the team, so don't expect much from me" feeling... It's a "Yes, I'm white. And I'm having the time of my life" feeling. I take pride in being the white guy and learning a new culture (which I'm still in the process of learning). I got into this not to earn money, or to place, or to try to be better than anyone else. I did this to have fun, meet new people, and to make new memories. And I may not have met many of you personally, but I know for a fact that the same goes for nearly every single human being on this forum. How people got from that, to 1500 word/3 page essays on BTF about placings-I really wish I could tell you.
