Chairs or No Chairs?

[Karan V]

Chairs or No Chairs?

In Surrey, we have a gurdwara that has chairs and table in the langar halls. but the rest of the gurdwaras have mats to sit on the floors. we had a vote a while back to choose between charis and no chairs. i heard that the gurus used to sit like this, so we do too? what do u guys think?

 

[Saleem]

My understanding is that everyone sitting on the floor together, shoulder-to-shoulder was to show that everyone was equal and also to build community. I do understand having a couple chairs on the side for those who are handicapped though. What's the benefit of table + chairs?

 

[Summy]

Actually no, the purpose of us sitting on the floor is important, and religiously very important to sikhs.

We sit on the floor, because we shouldnt be above the guru granth sahib ji. We pray, we bow in front, and we stay below the guru granth sahib ji. We never point our feet to Guru ji, we always remain in a humble manner infront of Guru ji. Our Guru's always stayed below the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Thats why it is such a debate if people should keep a takht in their house, because they are always bound to be above Guru ji.

I think its insane that people are debating this. It is not a chruch, mosque etc... its a gurdwara. We have been doing this for hundreds of years, and for a reason. For people with disabilities, yes, but not because we are inconvienced.

If we have chairs and tables at the langar hall, what stops us from having chairs and tables in front of guru ji? I think the debate in out of line.

 

[Sher]

No chairs, except for the disabled... I actually went to a Gurdwara in England that did something, that could be considered a little extreme, but I think it was kind of cool. They had a couple of chairs in the main hall *for the disabled) but those chairs were on the lower part of a ramp so their heads were still at the same level as those of people sitting on the floor. I know some disabled people hesitate to sit in regular chairs because they feel awkward sitting higher than the others, but this almost resolves the issue.

 

[Manjot]

do you guys think its ok if the chairs and the langar hall is on the bottom floor and top floor has Guru Granth Sahib Ji...your not above it...thats how we have it here in 1 our Gurdwara.

 

[Kamran786]

Actually no, the purpose of us sitting on the floor is important, and religiously very important to sikhs.

We sit on the floor, because we shouldnt be above the guru granth sahib ji. We pray, we bow in front, and we stay below the guru granth sahib ji. We never point our feet to Guru ji, we always remain in a humble manner infront of Guru ji. Our Guru's always stayed below the Guru Granth Sahib ji. Thats why it is such a debate if people should keep a takht in their house, because they are always bound to be above Guru ji.

I think its insane that people are debating this. It is not a chruch, mosque etc... its a gurdwara. We have been doing this for hundreds of years, and for a reason. For people with disabilities, yes, but not because we are inconvienced.

If we have chairs and tables at the langar hall, what stops us from having chairs and tables in front of guru ji? I think the debate in out of line.

I hate coming off as a hyper politically correct individual but how do masjids and churches tie into all of this?

 

[jvirk]

sit on the floor next to each other...only exception shud be the handicapped who SHOULD be provided chairs and/or tables

 

[- Raja -]

there shouldnt be chairs...summy basically summed it up

 

[Summy]

I hate coming off as a hyper politically correct individual but how do masjids and churches tie into all of this?

Yeah I think you need to calm down on the sensitivity there. Gurdwaras and all other religious institutions have decisions on how to make the people who attend their place most at home as possible. In Islam and Christanity, for that matter Judaism and other religions, there is no significance in relation to their holy scripture and where one should be seated. For members of a Gurdwara committee to possibly think about adhereing to what happens in mosques and chruches, ignores something distinct to our religious community, and distinct to our religion. Regarding this issue, there is something that seperates us from muslims and christans, and it should be adhered to.

 

[pluthra]

I hate coming off as a hyper politically correct individual but how do masjids and churches tie into all of this?

Yeah I think you need to calm down on the sensitivity there. Gurdwaras and all other religious institutions have decisions on how to make the people who attend their place most at home as possible. In Islam and Christanity, for that matter Judaism and other religions, there is no significance in relation to their holy scripture and where one should be seated. For members of a Gurdwara committee to possibly think about adhereing to what happens in mosques and chruches, ignores something distinct to our religious community, and distinct to our religion. Regarding this issue, there is something that seperates us from muslims and christans, and it should be adhered to.

wait, ok i know that theres no relation to the holy scripture...but like 2-4 posts before this 1 u said that we sit, etc in a certain manner to not disrespect the guru granth sahib. I'm not entirely right, but muslims pray in a certain manner where they're showing respect to allah (i think they have 3 different postures (kneeling, bowing, and then umm the mata thek-which i cant think of a name for). Even Christains are the same, the have pews but during mass they do eventually go down on their knees and pray. (I'm not entirely sure of that last one so its generalized)

Though back to the topic, I don't see why it is an issue. If people have been doing it for years (its a simple task and the least you could do is just be humble about it and not question why you do it). If there are chairs, its understood they're for elders, etc. But shouldn't you be worrying about a bigger issue (as people have claimed earlier)

 

[Meistro]

The Scott Rd and 72nd St Gurudwara (for all you Vancouver heads) has its Langar hall on the first floor and the Guru Granth Sahib Ji is on the second floor. Is this still wrong? Because Summy said that nobody should be higher than the Guru Granth Sahib Ji and technically if the langar hall is on a floor below it, but there are still tables and chairs, then there is no conflict? I remember a long time ago there was almost a huge fight at that Gurudwara where Bhai Ji's from another Gurudwara pulled out their kirpans and threatened for this Gurudwara to remove all tables and chairs.

 

[Basim]

I hate coming off as a hyper politically correct individual but how do masjids and churches tie into all of this?

Yeah I think you need to calm down on the sensitivity there. Gurdwaras and all other religious institutions have decisions on how to make the people who attend their place most at home as possible. In Islam and Christanity, for that matter Judaism and other religions, there is no significance in relation to their holy scripture and where one should be seated. For members of a Gurdwara committee to possibly think about adhereing to what happens in mosques and chruches, ignores something distinct to our religious community, and distinct to our religion. Regarding this issue, there is something that seperates us from muslims and christans, and it should be adhered to.

With regards to Islam, the holy book (Quran), and proper sitting.. I believe there needs to be some clarification.

"Reading the Qur'an is not like reading an ordinary book. It has some etiquette and manners. Imam Al-Ghazali mentions that one should perform ablution, be soft spoken and quiet, face the Qiblah, keep the head lowered and should not sit in a haughty manner, but sit as one sits before the Master."

"Sitting on the same level is not required, although it is nice to do that to show respect for the Book of Allah. There is no need to exaggerate in this matter. The same level is not needed if one is not sitting next to the reader. There is certainly no need to ask every one in the house and in every room to sit on the same level."

Source: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543274


More or less, there are certainly etiquettes for sitting to read the Quran.

"8 ) It is from the ettiqutes of respecting the Holy Quran that one does not put their back towards the Quran or spread their legs towards the Quran or sit in a high place when the Quran is beneath. (Bahare Shariat)"

Source: http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/Articles/English/Jewels_of_Quran.htm

"One should sit in a respectful manner on the ground. It is best to place the Qur'aan on a low table. If this is not available, hold the Qur'aan in one's hands. It is against etiquette to place it on one's lap.

If the Qur'aan is on a low table, then there is no harm if the knees are slightly higher than the Qur'aan."

Source: http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=1d00501f98c26bc321466dc3e9828fe5

"63. One should not sit with one?s feet or back towards the Holy Quran and neither should one sit higher than the Holy Quran."

Source: http://www.nooremadinah.net/Documents/VariousIslamicTopics/10)TheHolyQuran/TheHolyQuran.asp

There are probably hundreds of more sources that state proper etiquette, but this is what came up with the first Google search

I value your opinions/stances Summy, and you might already know all this, but I was just want to clarify a little bit in this area. Thanks.

~ Basim

 

[Summy]

Parul, your taking two statements that are independent of each other and mixing them together. When talking about chairs and tables, I said its not a mosque or a church, and on a compeltely different statement, I said that the practices in sikhism make us sit and pray in a manner that is not disrespectful to Guru granth sahib ji, which includes sitting below guru ji. That doesnt mean that muslims and christans dont pray in a certain manner.

Basim, to clarify, I said in relation to the person, not in general. From my knowledge of islam and christanity, and something that your quotes supported is that the koran or the bible do not have to be in a ceratin distance, or level in relation to the person. I never said there is no ettiquette in how one sits. The holy scripture IN RELATION to where one sits.

I think what we have to realize is that, technicality is not something that we just focus in on, and more so, we should look at tradition. I remember that fight meistro you are talking about, I think it happened in some Toronto area Gurdwara, it was disgusting. Back in the days, Gurdwara's, weren't 4 story buildings like it is today. Gurdwaras were sometimes one small hut like building. Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, Guru Arjun Dev Ji and other Guru's, would sleep below the guru granth sahib ji. Its a symbolic relationship, that all our actions in the Gurdwara, should have a humble purpose. Yeah, the basement floor will always be lower than the middle floor, but thats not the issue. The issue is that we always eat, and pray in a position that doesnt put ourselves above Guru Ji, it keeps us humble.

It is tradition. These practices of tradition is what has sustained us for so long, so why should we give it up for, of all reasons, minimal comfort? Its not a restuarant, its a Gurdwara.

 

[Waleed]

Basim, to clarify, I said in relation to the person, not in general. From my knowledge of islam and christanity, and something that your quotes supported is that the koran or the bible do not have to be in a ceratin distance, or level in relation to the person. I never said there is no ettiquette in how one sits. The holy scripture IN RELATION to where one sits.

The Quran should always be in the highest shelf (above all other books). It can't be below our feet or touch the ground. Also, we can't touch it until we have performed 'wudu'.

Summy or someone, for the sake of knowledge, can you educate me more about the etiquette that must be practiced around the Guru granth sahib ji? Thanks in advance.

 

[Meistro]

I think what we have to realize is that, technicality is not something that we just focus in on, and more so, we should look at tradition. I remember that fight meistro you are talking about, I think it happened in some Toronto area Gurdwara, it was disgusting. Back in the days, Gurdwara's, weren't 4 story buildings like it is today. Gurdwaras were sometimes one small hut like building. Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, Guru Arjun Dev Ji and other Guru's, would sleep below the guru granth sahib ji. Its a symbolic relationship, that all our actions in the Gurdwara, should have a humble purpose. Yeah, the basement floor will always be lower than the middle floor, but thats not the issue. The issue is that we always eat, and pray in a position that doesnt put ourselves above Guru Ji, it keeps us humble.

Yea that definitely makes sense. thanks for explaining.

 

[mafzal]

I hate coming off as a hyper politically correct individual but how do masjids and churches tie into all of this?

Yeah I think you need to calm down on the sensitivity there. Gurdwaras and all other religious institutions have decisions on how to make the people who attend their place most at home as possible. In Islam and Christanity, for that matter Judaism and other religions, there is no significance in relation to their holy scripture and where one should be seated. For members of a Gurdwara committee to possibly think about adhereing to what happens in mosques and chruches, ignores something distinct to our religious community, and distinct to our religion. Regarding this issue, there is something that seperates us from muslims and christans, and it should be adhered to.

Think someone already replied to this but I'll second it. In masjids and at your home you put the Qu'ran in a nice clean spot, usually on a high shelf i.e. don't dump it on the floor. It is respected just like you are saying to respect the guru granth sahib ji. And we pray on the floor on a nice clean carpet to be humble in front of God. And for sermons everyone sits on the floor and listens. There's chairs in the back and sides for old people or handicapped. Or even if like someone broke their ankle they will sit in a chair, no big.

But yeah. Pretty much same idea as Sikhs and Hindus. It's all about being humble and respectful, keeping yourself on a lower level below God.

 

[HarmanSingh]

Waleed,

The Guru Granth Sahib Ji is to be treated with utmost respect. That includes covering your head while in its presence, washing your hands before reading from the Guru Granth Sahib, covering your head, not eat/drink anything while reading, not engage in trivial conversation.

Also, the Guru Granth Sahib needs to be in a separate room if in someones home, not just sitting by the TV or something. A lot of people who have the luxury of a 3 story home will put it on the upper level as to show reverence/always stay below it and keep the TV, food and other possible inappropriate conversation, etc. away from the Guru Granth.

The Guru Granth Sahib is also to be placed on a Manji Sahib and covered with proper blankets/coverings. This is almost like ?dressing? the Guru Granth Sahib, as each ?page? is referred to as ?Ang? or Limb. The ?Chaur Sahib? which is kind of like a fan is used to show veneration.



Regarding the chair issue, I don't see how this is an issue. Why people would want to put chairs in the Diwan Hall or Langar Hall for anyone but the elderly/disabled is odd to me. Their is symbolism and purpose behind sitting on the ground, and their is no reason to throw this history away for chairs.

 

[Meistro]

hahah its a bit absurd to think that people can't sit on the floor (in the name of religion) while eating ONE meal, ONCE a week. Is that too much to ask? Or are people just getting that lazy? hahaha

 

[Summy]

Seriously eh miestro, its like people are getting so lazy.

Waleed, firstly, I am old school in the sense that I dont believe the guru granth sahib ji should be in someones house. I mean versions can be in the house for reading, etc... But I am old school in the sense that I dont believe it should be there. I will keep it in simple english just so people of all religions can understand. When you have like an alter with Guru Ji it signifies a house of god, a gurdwara. Traditionally, someone must receit Guru Ji everyday. Also in a house where one may eat meat, drink alcohol, or fornicate, these are all things that we dont do in the gurdwara.

Firstly, ettiquette around Guru Ji is simple. When you first enter a gurdwara, you must cover your head, and wash your hands/ remove your feet. You are supposed to head directly to Guru Ji and not stop off for conversation etc... Once in the main hall where Guru Ji is kept, you bow in front, offer a silent prayer and put a donation. One thing people dont do but should always be done, is to walk around the alter in which Guru Ji is keep in and bow in all directions...

You always sit face front, with your knees crossed when you listen to kirtan. When you leave, you bow once again before you leave, and you should never turn your back on Guru Ji. When recieveing any food or prashad you always bend down, and hold your hands right over the left.

In a gurdwara when you eat, you take langar from those distributing. Usually you should say waheguru or other religious terms, but for non sikhs, just reciveing it is fine. You eat langar again on the floor with your knees crossed. If you want more langar you would ask someone distributing langar for more subji or roti, and you never get it on your own.

These are just some of the basics when you enter a gurdwara, and how you should act around shri guru granth sahib ji. From my understanding, I know the Koran is not supposed to be placed on the ground, but unlke sikhi, I thought there was no necessary relation to where the koran was and where one should sit. I know in hinduism the murti's are usually above, and they sit like sikhs, but I always thought that it was essential in islam.

 

[pluthra]

summy, i wasn't trying to get at anything really (my 1st part was just to bring in the similar situation in mosques and churches b/c i thought it was sweet how many similarities there are in the ways we pray but we dont realize)


and the other 1 was just to address the issue that I dont understand why we would do it any other way...i mean it makes sense why we sit on the ground and all so i wouldnt see a reason to question it