Choreography Rights

[kinnell]

Plagiarism of entire choreography is horrendous (as witnessed through J.A.T.T. recently at Bruin 08) and copying routines of certain songs from other teams is just as bad. Even using certain moves that other teams used for a particular song can lead to problems. But to what extent should teams "allowed" to be used other teams creative moves?

I put the word allowed in quotations because there is no integrity police and usually no major consequences except for thumbs down from us and a loss of respectable reputation. With the advent of YouTube, people do get found out very easily. For example, Khalsa Junction had this amazing shimmy step for their Bari Kholke routine. It's been signature KJ because its unique and "out-of-the-box" creative. Should other teams use the move? Would you? Would you be opposed to other teams using other teams creative moves, formations and styles even if it was used 2 years in the past? Or should these moves be "blacklisted" and die with the teams that used them?

That brings me to my bigger question. Who owns the choreography, routines and moves of a team? Too many times, the value of a choreographer is under-emphasized. As a choreographer, I feel that the entire team gets complete recognition for choreography while that should NOT be the case. Should team members be allowed to use choreography that they were taught, in years to come or even at their own events? What if they joined another team? Can they use it there?

Often times, you see wedding/party bhangra performances and people are quick to point out that the routine was stolen from Team Y, only to find out that ONE Team Y member was in the performance. Is that fine or should that be looked down on? If an ex-KJ member joined Sher, can Sher use the KJ Shimmy? Can Team Y use a routine from a year before even if the choreographer has left?

I think you get the gist of what I'm trying to ask. I'm curious to see what you guys think.

 

[Vick]

Any team can pretty much do whatever they want. If a team goes as far as ripping off a whole routine from Youtube, then thats on them... What JATT did was amazing stupid and I can't ever imagine another team doing it ever again. Seriously, how dumb can you be? I think for the most part teams try their hardest not to repeat moves that "belong" to other teams, for example that one crazy formation thing that Empire does when 4 of the dancers join together with the other 4 and they join together with the other 4 and then move together as a team, I could never see another team using that. There will be some overlap between teams, because you only have so many moves. My only problem is, what if JATT pulled off that routine they jacked PERFECTLY, they didn't screw up at all and everything was crisp and the judges awarded them first place, that would be a hugeeee problem... I'm not sure how many of the aunty and uncle judges watch youtube and have the knowledge that some of us possess... To sum it up, I think the signature moves of some teams should remain with those teams unless you get some sort of permission to use that move and add a little flavor to it in some way or another... If you just rip it straight up and repeat exactly what the other team did, wheres the creativity in that?

 

[Jeeti]

It has always been my understanding that when you choreograph, you choreograph for YOUR team, and that TEAM can choose to use that choreography however they see fit. When a choreographer makes a dance, they are now sharing it with their team, I have never seen a choreographer stop a team from using their segments after they graduate or leave the team, it is NOT something that is usually an issue, as NO choreographer should ever be that selfish. The bottom line is that when the choreography is made, it should not be thought of as someones property, once its choreographed and taught its the property of the team PERIOD. Yes, choreography is important but choreographers can't afford to be possessive ESPECIALLY in bhangra. A move that you supposedly came up with, you could see at the next comp thrown into someone else's segment. The best choreography is choreography that lends from multiple sources somehow into its own style. Any nitpicker can sit there and say well that kinda looks likeee..., its the ability of the choreographer to somehow establish their own style that makes it unique. I agree with Vick, obviously you can't take choreography from other teams straight up. As far as "creative" moves, that is all relative. Choreographers just have to use good judgement, thats reallly all that can be done, theres no way to stop someone from jacking moves...

 

[Vic]

Here's how I see it.

Using another teams creative moves is wrong. Sometimes it takes a while to come up with something unique, and other times it just happens instantly. Either way, i think it's a teams property once they've established something unique and respectful (e.g. KJ's hydrolic truck... TOO SICK).

I personally would not use another teams creative move. I may be able to expand on a teams creative move. But I would not use it in the same format.

As for using choreo for other events. As long as its not a competition, I see no problem with it. If your entertaining a wedding or if your doing a performance for a school and one of the team members is dancing, I wouldn't mind at all.

But ripping an entire routine is too much. I understand that sometimes 2 teams end up doing the same move to the same song. I believe it happened to me once, but it was an honest mistake because sometimes you CANNOT watch every video thats posted on youtube. It's way too time consuming. But if its done on purpose then its a problem

As for who gets the credit for the choreography... It really depends who does the choreo. SGPD has a different way of doing choreo, but in the end it is a team project. BUT if a team was to have just one person telling everyone what to do, where to go, how to do it, then credit should be given to that person.

 

[Kanvar]

Yeah it is troublesome when you think of something and you yourself know that you didn't "get" the move from someone else's routine, but then come two months later someone posts a comment that move X was copied.

Copying moves that are so-called creative moves are even somewhat speculative. I myself have seen some teams, even this year, do a routine where they had a move that looked so cool and fresh, but later saw an India video from 2006 where the same move was done.

But I do agree that you can expand on creative moves. Some teams on the west coast can take two counts of a unique 8count move and make an entirely different 8count move.

I'd would say it is more scandalous to copy a unique formation, even if you end up pulling it off better that is so much more obvious to catch and innovative formations are extremely hard to come up with. I'm sure this opinion is shared with other choreographers. Take into account Bhangra Empire's pickup formation, or Nachdi Jawani doing phumanian in a diagonal; me at least, I will always associate that with them.

As far as credit, those that need to know who deserves credit will always know. I don't see the need in feeding the ego.

 

[Pooja]

I think formations are more susceptible to being copied and personally I don't see anything wrong with using them a few seasons down the line...it will always be known that Empire started the pick-up formation but someone might use it again in two years and I don't really think that's a big deal...

Formations wise, maybe another team may be able to do it bigger and better...in that case, it's just progressive.

I see what people are saying about not using other teams' formations but I think it's unrealistic to think that not one will and should ever use them again.

Moves wise...in terms of traditional teams that I watch, I feel like everyone uses the exact same moves which are traditional and are meant to be done a certain way so it's hard to avoid teams looking similar...just in a different order...so I guess it's more in the sense of your choreo in a set of beats...which then I agree that teams shouldn't directly copy other teams' sets of choreo.

I don't think the choreographer deserves any more credit than the rest of the team members....that's part of being on a team and just having humility...the dancers bring the choreo to life and they choreographers will get recognized at an appropriate time. And maybe the audience may not know that so and so choreographed the entire routine, but your teams knows and I'm sure they appreciate that.

 

[Kaur]

I see formations repeated and usually the original team who did them comes to mind. I agree with vic that a teams 'creative' move, or soemthing they can call they own should not be copied but it is, and is most seem with Nachdi Jawani

Nachdi Jawani at idols showcased the leaning jugnee, and now 2 years later teams still use it. Then at vibc they brought the giddha kick and we've already seen teams start using that in their choerography, and then their khunda spin which i think everyone saw at Bulldog first, and once again it was incorporated in many teams performances. Now they could come around and say that all 3 of those things were their ideas and teams are copying regardless of how its used.

Sometimes its hard to make a move your own ex. sgpd has domino jumps, and im surprised that no one has tried to make them their own.


Their is a very thin line between using another teams choreography or not and what is acceptable. I know that we saw 1 move that a India team did, but didnt incorprated into our routine, but then a few weeks later I saw another team take a whole formation with the same moves...... I guess use ur own discretion,,and we all know taking full routines is not acceptable.

 

[KaraN]

for a wedding i did bari kholkey from kj...and u noe everyone does kj on bari kholkey...but like the way i look at it...yea time n effort does go into making choreo...but if it is done at a non-competition level and/or a non-gig type of thing....itz ok...because i dont want people to get paid for stuff they didnt even make...thas rong..but if its a cultural show and u wanna be the baddest bhangra team in ur high school...go right ahead...and im saying this because there are soo many little cliqz here in ny that do that for their high schools for their cultural shows and on top of everything chickz dig a guy who can dance...so its a highly practiced formula used by alot of teenage kidz and u really cant stop it...


ProfessoR PyareLAL

 

[sulmoney]

its been said before, but really unique moves should not be stolen. the one gimmick that i really really enjoyed that i thought was so clever was boston 05, cornell bhangra's copyrighting of the upside down dholis. i got the joke because so much of cornell's stuff has been jacked over the years, that they had to do something about it. so competition wise, be original please. formations too, stealing formations stands out ridiculously. but like karan said, if you are gonna be doing a non-competitive performance, like a wedding, cultural show, campus exhibition show, just ask the team if you can use their choreography or mix, and most likely the team will say yes.

edited: turbo is right, my bad for calling out specific teams and being snitchy, its what happens when you start writing stuff when you are half asleep, no self moderating goes in to it. once again, my apologies, not a classy move. but i will say, beat la! beat la!

 

[Varun00]

haha yea sulman i remember that, sorry about that again. i have never come that close to pissing myself, so you accomplished something that weeekend..but thanks for being cool about it in the end.

Going on to the copying moves, even though it's wrong, you cannot really stop teams from doing it. What I've seen copied the most are the formations and gimmecks. Bhangra Empire's formations are sick, and for that, teams have started to copy them and add them into their own routines. This might have been mentioned before, but the whole kid thing, that KJ started (if im wrong, please correct me)...that is way overused now. The main reason for copying is just for that crowd factor. If teams were just competing in front of a panel of experienced judges, that have seen all of this before, and no crowd at all (or a crowd full of BTF members...b/c most of you have enough experience to tell whether or not a team has copied a move), then teams would start using original gimmecks, formations, etc...but that will never happen...so I don't think this problem will ever stop :/

 

[JT]

well put Turbo.... I agree with you 100 %.. bhangra has gone from, having a good time and enjoying the art, to I'm better then you and my team placed did yours ??

like Hkiran said... use your own discretion, you know what your doing....

 

[Raj]

I agree with you Turbo, bhangra has gotten way too competitive, but on the flip side, if it wasn't so competitive, better and better teams wouldn't emerge would they? The heavier the competition, the harder people work, and the better bhangra becomes as an art form.

Placing isn't about the money, it's about the MONTHS of hard work you and your team members put in (even on top of school work), the sacrifices you make, and all the good and bad times in between. Placing at a competition makes all of that work and time spent practicing well worth it. But when a team completely and blatantly rips off someone else's performance, taking all the credit for it, and making money off of it, you don't think that's wrong? Should it be okay to completely steal a routine, place first, and take all the winnings and showcase that comes with it?

 

[Arjun Barua]

This whole debate seems to fall under the umbrella of some much larger, more general arguments, namely:

-capitalism vs. utopian socialism
-property rights vs. common ownership
-competition vs. cooperation

It's just something that struck me as perhaps relevant to the topic, and might suggest why we think one way or another about choreography rights. But I think I'm too lazy to delve into an analysis of these topics, so I'll spare you guys from my rambling...

After all, I'm no Summy.

 

[Waleed]

Oh please do ramble Barua.

Would like to hear more of your analysis, I can def see the connection you are trying to make.

 

[zagreus]

Arjun, you're very right! There is a much larger argument made when it comes to the ownership of choreography.

I personally always felt as though if you choreo for the team, then it belongs to the team. I think my team ran into an issue where for some reason our choreo felt similar to another team's. In the end, we didn't risk it and changed every bit of our choreography. We changed our songs and everything just to make sure we didn't look like we stole anything. That was purely a coincidence as well. You can't just monitor every single video and performance by every team.

I think you run into an issue with bhangra on the issue of originality. There are the unique moves of course, especially the ones already addressed here earlier, but who owns the rights to traditional bhangra moves? Everyone does those moves, and in one case, blatantly dance to an entire set copying the moves.

Originality comes from modern bhangra, and what you do with it. SGPD has their stuff (which i'm sure has already been copied, or atleast modified), VCU has theirs, Empire has their amazing formations (and now are being mimicked, or teams are inspired by them). But I was wondering, is it ok to simply be inspired by those moves? I'm saying a team were to copy the moves exactly, but to take the base idea of the move and then modify it to their liking? I guess it's really up to the team's discretion.

 

[Waleed]

.......everyone works hard...everyone makes sacrifices.....

- Turbo

So true. Everyone gives up something for the greater good of the team. For instance a team like Yale, which started from absolutely scratch - the amount of time they spent learning 1 minute of choreography was probably a lot more than if an experienced team had learnt that same segment. Yet at the end of the day you are not judged on how many hours you spent practicing, rather the end product. Tough luck.

 

[Vic]

Thats right your judged on the end product. But what if you end product is the best at that competition... then I think teams have the right to be pissed off.

I have learnt from VCU to just keep quiet. Well thats after the Burgh inccident :S. lol. Enough respect goes out to VCU. I don't know how you keep your cool!

 

[kinnell]

Originality comes from modern bhangra, and what you do with it.

I absolutely agree with you, Jasmeet, and this is my argument why Modern Bhangra should definitely still be done and not completely looked down on. You may be able to innovate in traditional bhangra with variations in moves, formations, costumes, music and such - but in the end, they're minute variations, not completely original stuff. Meh.

Like most of you, I want the generations after us to have rich experiences with bhangra and for it to be accessible to those who want to learn its art, traditions and want an opportunity to innovate and be successful in the genre. My point is that, taking routines/segments is wrong, but should taking moves be completely fine?

I see teams recently use the KJ Shimmy move all the time and it seems to be generally accepted. However, just two years ago, I doubt it would have been positively viewed at all. It seems there is a need to have some type of temporal barrier between the actual event and when you can use it. Just an observation - personally, I have no intention of any sort to do that. I'm sure in 2 years, we'll see Team Z do the SGPD Domino Jump and perhaps even gain the additional points with it to place at a competition with it. Is it right? No. But with competitive atmosphere, I don't think it's wrong either (not that I would do that, for the reference).

I've noticed that teams will "borrow" a move because that move has been proven to be successful and proven to yield a certain reaction from the judges/audience (or they would not have been "borrowed" initially). If it is successful, teams will try to follow suite. You will see similarities among a lot of traditional teams because there seems to be some sort of formula for success for traditionality - deter too far and you do not do as well.

Arjun, good job picking up on the greater debate! You're absolutely right. But in this case, we, as members and leaders of various bhangra teams, have the small opportunity to impact and change the atmosphere of bhangra. If team members realize that your choreography may have moves of origins of elsewhere, they may be inclined to follow suite in the future when they take over the team. But if you intend on doing your own thing and not being deterred by what other teams do, you may play a very small part of doing some good.

 

[Velli]

i gotta agree with modern bhangra bringing originality. i hate to say it cause i bleed tradional bhangra and hate to call teams out but who doesnt know that teams like sgpd, nachdi, vcu, davis, b2b, get india dvd's before anyone else can or have not been posted on youtube and rip choreo off routines like no tomorrow.

i can appreciate sgpd cause usually they take something and use it as inspiration but some teams take out 16, 32 beats completely out of a set off a dvd and put it into a routine and call it tradional original bhangra.

my ass.

 

[Nikhil]

Bhangraholic,

Your points are very valid and accurate. However, teams have had the privilege of learning what traditional bhangra is and how it is done in India, many make it a very strong point to avoid any exact replication of bhangra in India. Yes, there every team you listed has traditional choreography, and by wanting to execute traditional moves properly, each one of those teams has a mission to abide by that desire (kind of like a contract), making it look as if sets are quite similar and maybe even identical. However, each one of those teams you listed is incredibly hardworking and innovative. Each one puts a creative spin on sets, whether they organize the dance in a unique way (for example: 1st bhangra followed by sammi, than jugni and dhamaal, and bhangra again), or they add flare to each executed move (for jhummar, each person shrugs shoulders and with the elevated right arm, rotates wrist in a clockwise direction, while stepping with the balls of the feet instead of the whole foot or heel of the foot).

It's quite possible you've seen many more videos and live performances than I, so my intentions aren't to disprove you. I'm just saying that I have yet to see a team straight up steal a complex combo that I've seen already performed by pro teams in India.