Discussion on Pagh issues during a Performance

[KingGeorge]

Should competitions just ban dancers who are not sikhs from wearing paggs on stage? Fact is a lot of people are only going to wear a pagg for the 8-10 mins that they perform. You just have to hope that they don't act as douches (a task at which justaguy failed miserably) for those few mins. Now, for a Sikh, pagg isn't just a prop and if they were not on stage, a Sikh would still be wearing a pagg. So, it makes sense that he has a turban on when he is dancing.

In India, all competitions are on dhol and live boliyaan. IN North America, most competitions are on music. Maybe pagri optional for non-sikhs could be the next step. Coming soon: team that break-dances wearing shorts/tshirts and dry-humps each other on stage wins a bhangra competition.

Ineffective and irrelevant sarcasm.

 

[Sohaj]

Saleem- I never said that non-sikhs are claiming to be Sikhs for those 8mins. I am comparing the act of wearing pagg your whole life with the act of wearing a pagg for 8 mins. If you are not a Sikh you wear a pagri for a few mins and the take it off. As a result, it is easy for non-sikhs to distinguish between turban worn on stage and turban worn by sikhs in everyday life. If you are Sikh, there is no difference between wearing a bhangra pagg and the pagg you wear everyday (i am not talking about style rather the significance). As a Sikh you are required to wear a turban and for you the turban you wear on stage (or Bhangra Turban as most would say) is your Sikh turban at that time.

 

[faizan]

This is one of the most illogical threads i have ever read on btf...ever.

 

[Jobanpreet]

JUSTAGUY-

first i commend you for your vast amount of knowledge. i`m not being sarcastic at all - it seems like you read a lot, you`re very conscious of whats going on in the world, and you`re very conscious about the tenets of your culture and religion. i agree with almost everything you`ve said

the one thing i`d like to clarify is - nobody is "qualified" or "disqualified" to wear a dastaar. A Sikh isn't defined by his dastaar or by his seva - he is defined by everything that he is. a Sikh must look like a Sikh, think like a Sikh, and act like a Sikh. and a Sikh is always on that journey. Some people master the physical appearance but never the inner. Some master the inner but still, some sort of haumai or insecurities will not allow them to maintain the physical appearance. the aim is not one or the other - it is all of the above. It is to be a Sikh inwardly and outwardly..

I agree with what you`re saying about bhangra and the degradation of women and punjabi culture today. i don't think bhangra is objectively bad ( as you mentioned, neither is punjabi culture - we just need to look a little bit into the past ).. but yes i agree, what's going on today is nonsense and it's completely disrespectful.

i dont think that just because one does bhangra, that makes them unqualified to be a Sikh or to go to the gurdwara. Sikhs should accept all - including the alcoholics, the smokers, the "sinners" as christians would call them.. "Avval Allah noor upaayeaa, Kudrat ke sabh bande.. Ek noor te sabh jag upjeyaa, kaun bhalay, ko mande?" - if we all came from the same light, then who are we to say who is bad and who is good.. We need to allow ourselves to all engage in Sikhi and sikh activities, no matter where we are on our individual spiritual journeys. however, that doesn't mean that we should all condone and forgive the bastardization of punjabi culture and consequently ourselves, and the fact that we are all becoming habitual drinkers and smokers.. this is something that needs to be stopped. but obviously that progress will only be made if we as a community make each other feel welcome to one another - Sikhi provides that to us, we just need to recognize it.

one more thing...
the debate on animals won`t get our community anywhere - the official Rahit Maryada, established by the Guru Khalsa Panth takes no stance on the issue, so long as we don't eat halal meat
people on both sides use different shabads from the Guru Granth Sahib to prove their own point
i feel like eating meat in specific is a personal choice
but that isn't very important to this discussion
the other points you made are much more significant and important for everyone to read

 

[californialove]

^^ very well said.

 

[campy614]

Should competitions just ban dancers who are not sikhs from wearing paggs on stage? Fact is a lot of people are only going to wear a pagg for the 8-10 mins that they perform. You just have to hope that they don't act as douches (a task at which justaguy failed miserably) for those few mins. Now, for a Sikh, pagg isn't just a prop and if they were not on stage, a Sikh would still be wearing a pagg. So, it makes sense that he has a turban on when he is dancing.

In India, all competitions are on dhol and live boliyaan. IN North America, most competitions are on music. Maybe pagri optional for non-sikhs could be the next step. Coming soon: team that break-dances wearing shorts/tshirts and dry-humps each other on stage wins a bhangra competition.

Going overboard much? I think so....

 

[yraparla]

Moderator's Note: Please use sarcasm effectively and transparently. Please stay relevant to the topic of treatment of Paghs during a performance. Please keep it sexy.

 

[Ashveer]

JUSTAGUY-

first i commend you for your vast amount of knowledge. i`m not being sarcastic at all - it seems like you read a lot, you`re very conscious of whats going on in the world, and you`re very conscious about the tenets of your culture and religion. i agree with almost everything you`ve said

the one thing i`d like to clarify is - nobody is "qualified" or "disqualified" to wear a dastaar. A Sikh isn't defined by his dastaar or by his seva - he is defined by everything that he is. a Sikh must look like a Sikh, think like a Sikh, and act like a Sikh. and a Sikh is always on that journey. Some people master the physical appearance but never the inner. Some master the inner but still, some sort of haumai or insecurities will not allow them to maintain the physical appearance. the aim is not one or the other - it is all of the above. It is to be a Sikh inwardly and outwardly..

I agree with what you`re saying about bhangra and the degradation of women and punjabi culture today. i don't think bhangra is objectively bad ( as you mentioned, neither is punjabi culture - we just need to look a little bit into the past ).. but yes i agree, what's going on today is nonsense and it's completely disrespectful.

i dont think that just because one does bhangra, that makes them unqualified to be a Sikh or to go to the gurdwara. Sikhs should accept all - including the alcoholics, the smokers, the "sinners" as christians would call them.. "Avval Allah noor upaayeaa, Kudrat ke sabh bande.. Ek noor te sabh jag upjeyaa, kaun bhalay, ko mande?" - if we all came from the same light, then who are we to say who is bad and who is good.. We need to allow ourselves to all engage in Sikhi and sikh activities, no matter where we are on our individual spiritual journeys. however, that doesn't mean that we should all condone and forgive the bastardization of punjabi culture and consequently ourselves, and the fact that we are all becoming habitual drinkers and smokers.. this is something that needs to be stopped. but obviously that progress will only be made if we as a community make each other feel welcome to one another - Sikhi provides that to us, we just need to recognize it.

one more thing...
the debate on animals won`t get our community anywhere - the official Rahit Maryada, established by the Guru Khalsa Panth takes no stance on the issue, so long as we don't eat halal meat
people on both sides use different shabads from the Guru Granth Sahib to prove their own point
i feel like eating meat in specific is a personal choice
but that isn't very important to this discussion
the other points you made are much more significant and important for everyone to read

Move to Punjab House. Tnx.

 

[J Hayer]

i think justaguy actually has some valid pts. yet I think theyre not relevant to the topic (the coca cola thing was incredibly excessive bro as well as slightly elitist-- btf isn't full of ignoramuses) -

the topic was initially how to most appropriately deal with a pagg unraveling on stage.
i think we can all agree, its all about treating it with respect because regardless of whether you see it as a Religious symbol or a Cultural one (or anything, even)- countless folks hold immense respect and emotion for the Pagri. its the identity of a People.


that would be enough reason for me. give respect and you get respect.

 

[Meistro]

What are you talking about. Do you realize that the pagh extends beyond just Sikhism, and that the bhangra pagh is different than the pagh in Sikhism? You realize that non-Sikh dancers who put on a paghari to perform are not just pretending to be Sikh for 8 minutes, right? i hope???

I have no idea as to why its so hard for you people to understand the point saleem has made. A thurley wali pugh in bhangra is part of PUNJABI CULTURE. Dancers should respect it for BOTH for religious AND cultural reasons. If you are Sikh, you will automatically respect the bhangra pugh because it is SIMILAR to a religious pugh, yet at the same time remember that both are in NO WAY connected. As summy said, they do not DEPEND on each other. But a sikh performer will find a pugh of ANY KIND familiar to one in their religion. Now, if you are a non-sikh, you should still respect the bhangra pugh because it is a part of the your routine. The thurla on your bhangra pugh represents youth, happiness, triumph, flamboyance, jovialness, and dignity (tohar); a reason that it should respected. If you consider bhangra a celebration of life, culture, friendship, etc, you respect all parts of your routine meaning you don't throw your props around, you respect the dhol, the stage you perform on, you salute the audience because without them there is no YOU (as a performer), as well as the attire that you're wearing. Kinnel's analogy about the books and papers were on point. Same goes for bhangra. However, it depends on the performer's interpretation of bhangra. If you are like Justaguy, then you really have no regard for your peers. He has already stated that he finds bhangra pointless but for very very odd and bizarre reason "does it for his team". Now, here is why you respect the bhangra pugh OUTSIDE the context of a cultural artform. Since the pugh is a distinguished feature of sikhism and the majority of bhangra performers (north america or india) are sikh, you should be considerate of your sikh peers who share the same stage with you because as I said before although the bhangra pugh IS NOT connected to sikhism, your sikh peers still find it FAMILIAR to one in their religion. I hope this all made sense.

And Justaguy, you have dug yourself a deep hole in all your posts. You have contradicted yourself too many times and made many other comments that are irrelevant.

Bottom Line: Don't respect the pugh because you know you're gonna get blasted on BTF if you don't. Respect it because it is moral. It is your crown (cultural OR religious). Heck, personally, I drink occassionally (wow its been a while) and I eat meat; if I tie a pugh outside of a bhangra environment, I make sure I at least don't drink because if Im in an intoxicated state I don't want to be acting silly (which I tend to do when I am in that state) and do the pugh a disservice. Wearing a pugh is liking wearing a badge of honor. You uphold yourself, you carry yourself with dignity, integrity and respect (kinda like a police man does when he's got his uniform on). If you consistently wear this "badge of honor" you automatically make it a habit to hold yourself in a certain way. Again i hope this all makes sense. I have tried giving both cultural and religious perspectives as to why the pugh should be respected, however, I am in now way pushing my ideas on anyone, these are solely my thoughts and beliefs.

 

[HarmanSingh]

What are you talking about. Do you realize that the pagh extends beyond just Sikhism, and that the bhangra pagh is different than the pagh in Sikhism? You realize that non-Sikh dancers who put on a paghari to perform are not just pretending to be Sikh for 8 minutes, right? i hope???

I have no idea as to why its so hard for you people to understand the point saleem has made. A thurley wali pugh in bhangra is part of PUNJABI CULTURE. Dancers should respect it for BOTH for religious AND cultural reasons. If you are Sikh, you will automatically respect the bhangra pugh because it is SIMILAR to a religious pugh, yet at the same time remember that both are in NO WAY connected. As summy said, they do not DEPEND on each other. But a sikh performer will find a pugh of ANY KIND familiar to one in their religion. Now, if you are a non-sikh, you should still respect the bhangra pugh because it is a part of the your routine. The thurla on your bhangra pugh represents youth, happiness, triumph, flamboyance, jovialness, and dignity (tohar); a reason that it should respected. If you consider bhangra a celebration of life, culture, friendship, etc, you respect all parts of your routine meaning you don't throw your props around, you respect the dhol, the stage you perform on, you salute the audience because without them there is no YOU (as a performer), as well as the attire that you're wearing. Kinnel's analogy about the books and papers were on point. Same goes for bhangra. However, it depends on the performer's interpretation of bhangra. If you are like Justaguy, then you really have no regard for your peers. He has already stated that he finds bhangra pointless but for very very odd and bizarre reason "does it for his team". Now, here is why you respect the bhangra pugh OUTSIDE the context of a cultural artform. Since the pugh is a distinguished feature of sikhism and the majority of bhangra performers (north america or india) are sikh, you should be considerate of your sikh peers who share the same stage with you because as I said before although the bhangra pugh IS NOT connected to sikhism, your sikh peers still find it FAMILIAR to one in their religion. I hope this all made sense.

Guess who said this last year?

"As it was mentioned before, THERE IS NO RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE IN BHANGRA so why is there a need to hate on B2B for not picking up the pugh? I didn't want to bring up this whole pagh discussion all over again because it was discussed less than a month ago. Its a waste of everyone's time to keep on discussing the same topic OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Harman, you see the pagh as a religious symbol. GREAT. You are a sardar. I respect that. Many of us respect the pugh as a religious symbol due to its religious and historical value. BUT THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND PEOPLE WHO RESPECT THE PUGH BECAUSE OF SIKHI IN THE BHANGRA WORLD. Just because somebody doesnt share the same values that you do, DOES NOT mean that you can tell them that you disrespect them. Amrit thari people dont eat meat but many of those around them possibly do. IS THAT ANY REASON TO HATE ON SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE THEY DONT SHARE THE SAME VALUES AS YOU DO? ...You call yourself a real SIKH sardar? Then you would be compassionate and realize that everyone is human and that we all make mistakes INSTEAD OF CRITICIZING OTHERS. THAT IS NOT WHAT SIKHI TEACHES. YOUR COMMENTS ARE HYPOCRITICAL."

 

[Meistro]

What are you talking about. Do you realize that the pagh extends beyond just Sikhism, and that the bhangra pagh is different than the pagh in Sikhism? You realize that non-Sikh dancers who put on a paghari to perform are not just pretending to be Sikh for 8 minutes, right? i hope???

I have no idea as to why its so hard for you people to understand the point saleem has made. A thurley wali pugh in bhangra is part of PUNJABI CULTURE. Dancers should respect it for BOTH for religious AND cultural reasons. If you are Sikh, you will automatically respect the bhangra pugh because it is SIMILAR to a religious pugh, yet at the same time remember that both are in NO WAY connected. As summy said, they do not DEPEND on each other. But a sikh performer will find a pugh of ANY KIND familiar to one in their religion. Now, if you are a non-sikh, you should still respect the bhangra pugh because it is a part of the your routine. The thurla on your bhangra pugh represents youth, happiness, triumph, flamboyance, jovialness, and dignity (tohar); a reason that it should respected. If you consider bhangra a celebration of life, culture, friendship, etc, you respect all parts of your routine meaning you don't throw your props around, you respect the dhol, the stage you perform on, you salute the audience because without them there is no YOU (as a performer), as well as the attire that you're wearing. Kinnel's analogy about the books and papers were on point. Same goes for bhangra. However, it depends on the performer's interpretation of bhangra. If you are like Justaguy, then you really have no regard for your peers. He has already stated that he finds bhangra pointless but for very very odd and bizarre reason "does it for his team". Now, here is why you respect the bhangra pugh OUTSIDE the context of a cultural artform. Since the pugh is a distinguished feature of sikhism and the majority of bhangra performers (north america or india) are sikh, you should be considerate of your sikh peers who share the same stage with you because as I said before although the bhangra pugh IS NOT connected to sikhism, your sikh peers still find it FAMILIAR to one in their religion. I hope this all made sense.

Guess who said this last year?

"As it was mentioned before, THERE IS NO RELIGIOUS SIGNIFICANCE IN BHANGRA so why is there a need to hate on B2B for not picking up the pugh? I didn't want to bring up this whole pagh discussion all over again because it was discussed less than a month ago. Its a waste of everyone's time to keep on discussing the same topic OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. Harman, you see the pagh as a religious symbol. GREAT. You are a sardar. I respect that. Many of us respect the pugh as a religious symbol due to its religious and historical value. BUT THE WORLD DOES NOT REVOLVE AROUND PEOPLE WHO RESPECT THE PUGH BECAUSE OF SIKHI IN THE BHANGRA WORLD. Just because somebody doesnt share the same values that you do, DOES NOT mean that you can tell them that you disrespect them. Amrit thari people dont eat meat but many of those around them possibly do. IS THAT ANY REASON TO HATE ON SOMEONE JUST BECAUSE THEY DONT SHARE THE SAME VALUES AS YOU DO? ...You call yourself a real SIKH sardar? Then you would be compassionate and realize that everyone is human and that we all make mistakes INSTEAD OF CRITICIZING OTHERS. THAT IS NOT WHAT SIKHI TEACHES. YOUR COMMENTS ARE HYPOCRITICAL."

Harman, thank you for bringing up my old post. It just goes to show how one's thought processes change over a year's time. My culture and religion are not a joke to me. They are something I feel quite passionate about and not something I do "for fun". I think about these aspects of culture and religion constantly and I look to learn more about different perspectives and ideas. Sometimes it takes introspection to learn to see things at different angles and not someone pushing their ideas on you. If bringing up my old post is a way of saying "AH HA! GOTCHA!", then you have completely failed. If your bringing up my old post is your way of asking for an apology, then I apologize for being so brash.

 

[terabaap]

What are you talking about. Do you realize that the pagh extends beyond just Sikhism, and that the bhangra pagh is different than the pagh in Sikhism? You realize that non-Sikh dancers who put on a paghari to perform are not just pretending to be Sikh for 8 minutes, right? i hope???

I have no idea as to why its so hard for you people to understand the point saleem has made. A thurley wali pugh in bhangra is part of PUNJABI CULTURE. Dancers should respect it for BOTH for religious AND cultural reasons. If you are Sikh, you will automatically respect the bhangra pugh because it is SIMILAR to a religious pugh, yet at the same time remember that both are in NO WAY connected. As summy said, they do not DEPEND on each other. But a sikh performer will find a pugh of ANY KIND familiar to one in their religion. Now, if you are a non-sikh, you should still respect the bhangra pugh because it is a part of the your routine. The thurla on your bhangra pugh represents youth, happiness, triumph, flamboyance, jovialness, and dignity (tohar); a reason that it should respected. If you consider bhangra a celebration of life, culture, friendship, etc, you respect all parts of your routine meaning you don't throw your props around, you respect the dhol, the stage you perform on, you salute the audience because without them there is no YOU (as a performer), as well as the attire that you're wearing. Kinnel's analogy about the books and papers were on point. Same goes for bhangra. However, it depends on the performer's interpretation of bhangra. If you are like Justaguy, then you really have no regard for your peers. He has already stated that he finds bhangra pointless but for very very odd and bizarre reason "does it for his team". Now, here is why you respect the bhangra pugh OUTSIDE the context of a cultural artform. Since the pugh is a distinguished feature of sikhism and the majority of bhangra performers (north america or india) are sikh, you should be considerate of your sikh peers who share the same stage with you because as I said before although the bhangra pugh IS NOT connected to sikhism, your sikh peers still find it FAMILIAR to one in their religion. I hope this all made sense.

And Justaguy, you have dug yourself a deep hole in all your posts. You have contradicted yourself too many times and made many other comments that are irrelevant.

Bottom Line: Don't respect the pugh because you know you're gonna get blasted on BTF if you don't. Respect it because it is moral. It is your crown (cultural OR religious). Heck, personally, I drink occassionally (wow its been a while) and I eat meat; if I tie a pugh outside of a bhangra environment, I make sure I at least don't drink because if Im in an intoxicated state I don't want to be acting silly (which I tend to do when I am in that state) and do the pugh a disservice. Wearing a pugh is liking wearing a badge of honor. You uphold yourself, you carry yourself with dignity, integrity and respect (kinda like a police man does when he's got his uniform on). If you consistently wear this "badge of honor" you automatically make it a habit to hold yourself in a certain way. Again i hope this all makes sense. I have tried giving both cultural and religious perspectives as to why the pugh should be respected, however, I am in now way pushing my ideas on anyone, these are solely my thoughts and beliefs.

This is what mattered the most IMO

"Bottom Line: Don't respect the pugh because you know you're gonna get blasted on BTF if you don't. Respect it because it is moral."

 

[jasraj93]

:|LOLLL u guys snappeddd....

 

[Tuckerrrr]

Wearing a pugh is liking wearing a badge of honor. You uphold yourself, you carry yourself with dignity, integrity and respect (kinda like a police man does when he's got his uniform on). If you consistently wear this "badge of honor" you automatically make it a habit to hold yourself in a certain way.

nicely put

 

[Ak_Di_Nishani]

Just a question, not getting invovled in this religious battle but when did this happen? what preformance?

 

[Joey]

dudes this is gettin waayyyy too serious. why can't we all just have fun, dance our hearts out like no tomorrow , but at the same time just make sure we respect the paggh? can someone close this thread please?

 

[terabaap]

I am still looking for a proper tree.