Judging at Competitions

[Saleem]

What effect does the letter grade have? Can others confirm this?

 

[Mike B]

I think judges tend to look at the traditionality part of the rubric rather subjectively. In Texas there were 40 points awarded to traditionality, and the placings did not necessarily reflect this (the live team, tho they had pagh troubles, did not place). Again, as Aman and others have said, no knock on any of the competing teams, everyone that placed did an excellent job with their own respective styles of bhangra and the placings weren't crazy. I just think it's hard for competitions to balance the traditional/modern trends in regards to the actual judges themselves. If a competition awards such high traditionality points as did Boston Bhangra, all of their judges should be knowledgeable of traditional bhangra (i dno if they were or not just saying). I think comps try to balance with the judging so both kinds of teams have a fighting chance, and unfortunately this tends not to balance with the rubric. It might have been on POL, but I remember ppl talking about how they should define a comp as traditional or not, because the balancing act makes for entirely subjective placings. In the end tho if ppl arent happy theyll just have to suck it up lol

and yea just my opinion not bulldawg da raaj lol

 

[Vick]

VCU is great at way they do, unfortunately I also think their plan to stay traditional has cost them a few competitions in the past... I think head to head, Empire will take the crown over VCU everytime for the simple reason that Empire has more of a "wow" factor than VCU... VCU tried to bring out the "wow" factor at Bruin last year and everyone considered it so odd because we arent used to that style of bhangra from them... I kinda feel bad for VCU, damned if you do, and damned if you dont... I say screw it all and go modern...

 

[Havish]

The major issue is the actual judges in my opinion.

I really don't understand why competition still use old uncles and aunties to judge our competitions. First of all they don't follow bhangra the way we expect them to, they usually don't have the knowledge that we expect them to have, and their so called "qualification of bhangra" is just doing bhangra at some indian party or teaching some other type of dance.

It seems like when a competition is over and all the videos are posted up on BTF, the majority of people seem to come to an agreement on who should have won based on what we believe is the best performance of the night. And because of this, why not use a younger based generation for judges. Bhangra in the Burgh is my primary example, the judges from this competitions are all people who are involved with bhangra in the US, and most had danced with a team within the past 5 years or so. Yes they had issues with judging last year, but as judges who stay involved in the bhangra scene, they have gone back and looked at their mistake and corrected themselves for the future. I don't see any uncle going on to BTF to see whats happening the bhangra world.

 

[Kapil]

Havish, I agree with you on many points. But Sometimes I've met a younger judge (say with a baby child) who just left the scene and my first reaction is hmm, is this person qualified? What makes them more qualified then, say, a 'new' BTF member who has been to every competition of 2007, and knows the exact paradigm of current bhangra and how it "should" be judged better than a veteran from the 2004? How long/much experience should a judge have to be qualified..see we are back to the same issue of subjectivity.

Also, you can't assume all uncles judges are those from parties that simply twist the lightbulb and pet the dog, so to speak. There are definitely elders that have competed and/or taught in punjab, or know the proper execution of the proper step (for example, every move should be done a specific way, but teams nowaday use variations of those traditional moves/sequences to 'mix it up' or innovate choreography while keeping it traditional). We can't discount the fact that we need to maintain the precision and history of these traditional steps, while also factoring in choreography innovation when judging. Judging criteria will surely take a turn again when another bhangra paradigm shift occurs.

 

[Vick]

I agree with Havish, we need to put an age cap on the bhangra uncles/aunties... No one ever agrees with the results, and I've said it before, choose a handful of BTF members who can be trusted and let them judge... I could name a few off the top of my head, but to keep their ego's in check, I'll refrain from using specific names... haha...

 

[Kapil]

What effect does the letter grade have? Can others confirm this?

in case anyone wants to see the actual sheets, see attached

 

[Havish]

Yes, I'm not saying all uncles are like this, but I'm saying that there should be a good mixture in the judging panel. Have some young and have some old that way we get a good discussion on who should place and why. Don't just try to fill up all the spots with older generation just to get to 5 judges or something.

Also there are few people who are part of the younger generation that knows the history and traditional aspects of bhangra just as well as the older generation, if not better, so why not start to incorporate into competitions.

Yes, qualification is to the eye of the beholder, but I'm sure if people were to put their qualifications on here, the bhangra committee could agree or disagree as to whether or not they qualify as a judge.

 

[Vic]

I agree with Havish, we need to put an age cap on the bhangra uncles/aunties... No one ever agrees with the results, and I've said it before, choose a handful of BTF members who can be trusted and let them judge... I could name a few off the top of my head, but to keep their ego's in check, I'll refrain from using specific names... haha...

I was just about to ask what everyones opinion would be on this. I personally would be a tad bit frightened about bias that may occur from relationships formed between teams. But I would still love to compete and actually be judged by peers with the same mind set as my teams and other teams, which is to bring something exclusive and different to the table.

I would love to be a judge. I have relationships with many teams, but we all know business is business. I'm sure if we can compete against eachother, we can judge eachother and award the deserving winners.

 

[jvirk]

i agree w/ havish quite a bit on this topic

i think further research shud be done into choosing judges..my own uncle (dhanwandh randhawa) was the 2 time dancer of the year in punjab..hes only about 44..and hes only judged at bhangra blizzard..he understands the way this generation does bhangra..he understands the competitoins..styles..etc..

i know at rangoli there were 2 female judges respectively..who had no knowledge of bhangra..and at qc dhamaal last yr..oh lord..

i wud hope that every competition reading this will understand where dancers are coming from and hopefully we can get something done rather quickly

this is my opinion..not my team (ecu muqabla)

-justin singh virk
ecu muqabla

 

[ban3rg]

I agree with Havish, we need to put an age cap on the bhangra uncles/aunties... No one ever agrees with the results, and I've said it before, choose a handful of BTF members who can be trusted and let them judge... I could name a few off the top of my head, but to keep their ego's in check, I'll refrain from using specific names... haha...

I was just about to ask what everyones opinion would be on this. I personally would be a tad bit frightened about bias that may occur from relationships formed between teams. But I would still love to compete and actually be judged by peers with the same mind set as my teams and other teams, which is to bring something exclusive and different to the table.

I would love to be a judge. I have relationships with many teams, but we all know business is business. I'm sure if we can compete against eachother, we can judge eachother and award the deserving winners.

great idea dude. what the hell, at the very least they can make a separate category. just as there is audience choice, or people's choice, they can have a Peer's choice or BTF choice or something along those lines,,,let's get creative here

 

[Boston Bhangra]

Judging to the BBC board is very important and we go through many lengths to make sure our judges stick to our rubric. We believe they did a good job.

Any teams with qualms should have asked questions before the competition as the rubric is presented to them. We clearly state everything on the rubric and even have a description for the rubric. If teams choose not to ask questions, there isn't much that we can do. We try to explain and even push teams to ask questions as we want them to be very clear on our rubric.

People keep bringing up the traditionality points of 20, but people seem to forget the originality points of 10, opening and ending of 10 and 5 respectively, along with additional points for stunts and the like. It is easy to get swept under by 1 thing on the scoresheet, but keep in mind, traditionality is 20 points, and I can promise you Empire was not getting 3 points out of 20 for that section.

We are happy with the way the judges came to their decisions, and we believe in what the decisions were. VCU seems to be the main team harping on the judging, so if you have questions, please do contact Boston Bhangra. We are more than happy to explain the judging score sheet to you.

Thank you,
Boston Bhangra, Inc

 

[Aman Sandhu]

People keep bringing up the traditionality points of 20, but people seem to forget the originality points of 10, opening and ending of 10 and 5 respectively, along with additional points for stunts and the like.

I am not happy with the judging and thats why I brought it up to BTF, so the public is more aware of how Boston Bhangra judging works. This is my post, not VCU's and VCU has requested the score sheet, so once they receive it they can see where judges took off points. The reason that I brought this to BTF is because I believe the judges were not qualified if they found Empire to be traditional. I am publicizing it to everyone here on BTF to show how judging works at Boston Bhangra. This is not VCU complaining, this is only me bringing up a very important issue.

Why weren't the actual score sheets posted?

 

[Kapil]

aman i posted the bbc judging sheets above as attachments. stunts , theme etc are 'extras'

 

[AmitB]

I was just about to ask what everyones opinion would be on this. I personally would be a tad bit frightened about bias that may occur from relationships formed between teams. But I would still love to compete and actually be judged by peers with the same mind set as my teams and other teams, which is to bring something exclusive and different to the table.

I would love to be a judge. I have relationships with many teams, but we all know business is business. I'm sure if we can compete against eachother, we can judge eachother and award the deserving winners.

[/quote]

I definitly agree that people who are on teams now and are from the younger generation can judge, under the conditions that everyone knows they are judging. If everyone knows that someone who is judging is friends with a certain team, im pretty sure that judge is going to think long and hard about whether thier friends deserve a place or they lose all credibility.

 

[mafzal]

i know at rangoli there were 2 female judges respectively..who had no knowledge of bhangra..and at qc dhamaal last yr..oh lord..

If the issue is that they had no knowledge of bhangra, why do you feel the need to specifically state they were female? What does the gender of the judge matter, if the issue is that they were unqualified? ...

 

[Saleem]

There are two issues:
1) Judges, as Havish and others have said and I agree

2) An appropriate rubric and following it.

I spoke with BTFers around bbc and many agreed that empire had a very entertaining, creative, synched dance and deserved to place. But the *rubric* disagrees.
Not bbc, but some other comp had 40% based on traditionality. But then the placings don't reflect that. It's silly to set such an unrealistic rubric just to look authentic or whatever the reason.

 

[Havish]

VCU seems to be the main team harping on the judging, so if you have questions, please do contact Boston Bhangra.

VCU isn't harping on the judging, we are just bring up an issue that needs to be discussed. As I clearly stated before, this has nothing to do with BBC and is a straight up judging issue, so please stop making it seem like VCU is hating on BBC.

Saleem summed up the major points I'm trying to make.

First of all, there should be a basic rubric for all competitions, because this rubric will help define what the competition is about. As others have said competitions should announce if they are modern or traditional, I don't think that is necessary because that becomes outlined in the rubric. Teams can read the rubric and see if it fits to their style and then decide where to come or not. The rubric is an outline that should be followed, but not final. The judges should watch each team to the rubric and judge them according and also be making adjusts as the following team performs. At the end the judges should look at the final scores of the sheet and see if they agree with who comes out on top. If they do, then its final, if they don't then they should discuss why they feel other wise based on the rubric and their opinions as judges.

Second is the actual judges. I strongly feel for having a more younger generation judges, I know there are a hand full, and only a hand full of people on this site that I would consider qualified, but I believe they should be given the opportunity to judge along aside with the older generation. This will help bridge the past to the present when judges discuss the results.

I have judged a high school bhangra competition, and I know its hard to judge, but doing all of the things I listed isn't too hard if it is clearly informed to the judges prior to the competition.

 

[Waleed]

This is a very good thread and something that needs to be discussed. I wouldn't say any team in particular has lodged an official complaint as a team (as the judging sheets have still not be released). This thread is food for thought for all organizers (not BBC in particular) so they can improve the judging process at their competitions.

Regarding older judges, I actually met 2 of the judges after the competition, both of them were alteast 35+ yrs old. I have to admit that in the past I dismissed these older judges as 'uncles & aunties' who don't know about bhangra in North America but I was super impressed by their knowledge of 'whats hot in the bhangra scene'. They knew which teams had recycled, which teams had changed their style, which teams used newer songs... I have always doubted older judges but after meeting those two, I have def changed my mind. Just like Havish said earlier, competitions should have a healthy mix of old & younger judges - I think that is the best formula.

 

[Meistro]

I really think its important that we define WHAT traditional bhangra is before we begin to assume what empire deserved in the traditional category. They don't even consider themselves traditional. Remember, traditional aspects of a teams routine accounted for 20% of the judging criteria at Boston Bhangra. Empire, for all I know wasn't traditional at all with this routine. They had a jhummar segment and a very short khunda segment. Those are the only parts of the routine that I felt were actually traditional. Sure, all teams do phumanian, sammi, jhummar, dhamaal, etc. Just because empire uses these aspects of bhangra in their routine does not make them worthy of scoring big in traditional elements. Execution of these moves is way more important to me if I was a judge. How is a team's faslaan or dhamaal executed? Are they being very graceful or are they stiff and robotic? When performing the dhamaal is the team executing it with the right posture? If they're stiff and robotic when faslaan are supposed to be really graceful and relaxed, and this is something thats recurring throughout the routine, the team is not displaying proper traditional steps. They're going to score low in the Traditional section of the judging rubric. Im not saying teams can't put their own spin on bhangra steps, BUT you should create the move with respect to how the move is supposed to be executed. VCU does a GREAT job of doing this. They used complex, traditional steps while still looking at ease as they executed their formations. They displayed nothing short of perfect nakhrey while doing all of this. The formations that they used, if you look closely, were very traditional. They took traditional formations and put their own spin on it. Their routine showed a lot of discipline in how carefully they construct their choreography, of course with proper execution of bhangra in mind. Its not just a bunch of random 4, 8, or 16 counts. This is what I believe traditional bhangra is. Like I said, anybody can do a simple punjab or jandu sangha, BUT the beauty is in how its executed, it goes a lot deeper than just throwing it in your routine. If the judges were so influenced by empire's last impression of the whole show, I think we need to find more qualified judges. I can honestly say, aside from a slight lack of cleanliness, that VCU performed a flawless routine according to the judging rubric. I can't imagine how or why they might not have recieved full points in every single aspect of the criteria.

Empire was entertaining. They definitely had unique formations. Raas formations. They were very clean. I saw very simple choreography executed by average dancers at best. Where is the level of difficulty in the routine? Maybe 3 or 4 out of 12 dancers showed some nakhra. One thing I can say about empire is that they have never outdone themselves. They don't set the bar higher and explore new territory. Try something they would normally never try. As it was mentioned before, we've seen the same recycled choreography for quite some time now..........VCU considered the fact that formations were something that entertained audiences. They took the notion, and put their own spin on it. The result was, the best co-ed performance anybody has ever witnessed.....I would score a less cleanly team who executed proper bhangra higher than a team with creativity and formations that are taken from another artform. Creativity is not what bhangra is based on. It is a traditional dance. A team's foundation should not be based on formations, gimmicks, and cleanliness. It should be traditional bhangra, and then derived from that.


Anyhow, I think judging rubrics need to be emphasized to the judges by committees that they be followed in the way they're presented. If crowd response, modern-ness, etc, arent in the criteria, then dont judge a team based on it.